Author Topic: Your grievances concerning skills  (Read 20722 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Rejakor

  • Donkey Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 610
    • Email
Re: Your grievances concerning skills
« Reply #40 on: February 17, 2011, 01:45:02 PM »
People talking about how to balance skill DCs to require cheese in order to stop people cheesing skill DCs:

Please explain why a system of skill ability use(Tracking) = successful skill check vs DC(Roll + Mod equal or higher than DC) is better than a system of skill ability use(Tracking) = min skill rank (a certain amount of ranks to be able to do it at all) + successful skill check vs DC (Roll + Mod equal or higher than DC).


Nytemare3701

  • Donkey Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 674
    • Email
Re: Your grievances concerning skills
« Reply #41 on: February 17, 2011, 07:11:13 PM »
Update: I've started a skill rewrite here.

The plan I'm going with is using ranks for the elimination of inherent penalties in skills. Holding your breath for 3x CON instead of 2x, not taking the 2x armor check penalty while swimming, etc. Sure, a caster can get a higher number, but he isn't naturally adept at it, so he still has to eat the various penalties.

Skills that didn't have penalties in the first place (appraise) will grant some sort of mundane but useful bonus (appraise works as a 10 minute identify). Synergy bonuses will run rampant at higher ranks.

The_Mad_Linguist

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 8780
  • Simulated Thing
Re: Your grievances concerning skills
« Reply #42 on: February 17, 2011, 07:14:22 PM »
Appraise becomes far more useful when you realize slaves (and in particular, myrmidons) are a good.  Size up your opponents instantly!
Linguist, Mad, Unique, none of these things am I
My custom class: The Priest of the Unseen Host
Planetouched Handbook
Want to improve your character?  Then die.

PlzBreakMyCampaign

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1373
  • Immune to Critical Hits as a Fairness Elemental
Re: Your grievances concerning skills
« Reply #43 on: February 18, 2011, 02:31:17 AM »
What garryl, x-codes and TML said. That last one REALLY cuts down on the bookkeeping for an ECL14 meleer with a crapton of dips

nytemare, I like your fixes in as much as they suppliment the original skills.
[Spoiler]
Quote
An interesting read, nice to see a civil discussion
The point of Spell Resistance is to make it harder to get buffed.
And healed. Don't forget that.
Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.
[/Spoiler]

Old Geezer's Law of Hobby Taste: The more objectively inconsequential a hobby is, the more disagreements within the community will be expressed in outrageously insulting, overblown, and ludicrously emotionally laden terms.

More Funny than Humble[Spoiler]
Quote from: PlzBreakMyCampaign
Your a shifter... you have all you ever need.
It blows MoMF out of the water

But if your greedy for more [Wish] for something that only effects you, like another class level or two that doesn't count against your ECL.
Quote from: hungryhungryhippo987
Yes, I'm the 3.0 "Masters of the Wild" shifter, the awesome kind. My favorite form to take is Force Dragon. Yes, I am immortal ... My character is hands down the coolest guy in the campaign and there is nothing I could possibly want.
PBMC gets a cookie for DotA r

Nytemare3701

  • Donkey Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 674
    • Email
Re: Your grievances concerning skills
« Reply #44 on: February 18, 2011, 12:04:44 PM »
What garryl, x-codes and TML said. That last one REALLY cuts down on the bookkeeping for an ECL14 meleer with a crapton of dips

nytemare, I like your fixes in as much as they suppliment the original skills.

I'll make able learner a part of the core skill mechanics then.

Why thank you.


EDIT: Made it so that you can't use epic skills without having 14 (19?) ranks in the skill. That reserves the really cool tricks for skillmonkeys only.

awaken DM golem

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 3294
  • PAO'd my Avatar
Re: Your grievances concerning skills
« Reply #45 on: February 20, 2011, 04:36:49 PM »
Consolidating the skills, this thread has covered.
Frank/K do that. 4e does that.

It's still a little weird that Craft and Profession
are on the same "scale" as Perception(4e) or UMD.
Skills could be hijacked onto the Spell Level scale.
Not that 0s, 1s or 2s, are much to write home about.

4e's skill challenge system has the Butterfly Effect part.
You gain a level, therefore that patch of ice is slipperier.
Why not? There are stranger things in d&d.

Nytemare3701

  • Donkey Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 674
    • Email
Re: Your grievances concerning skills
« Reply #46 on: February 20, 2011, 06:26:36 PM »
Skills are giving me the most trouble out of everything so far. I might just put them on hiatus until I finish the class rewrites.

Bauglir

  • Man in Gorilla Suit
  • *****
  • Posts: 2346
  • TriOptimum
Re: Your grievances concerning skills
« Reply #47 on: February 20, 2011, 08:10:54 PM »
My main problems have pretty much all been covered here, so this is probably just recap.

There's the problem that too few skills have scaling rewards past the minimum success.
Solution: Skill checks need to have extra benefits for exceeding the DC, whenever it makes sense to add them.

Plus, DCs in the current system are either trivial if you're trying, or impossible if you're not (note that "not trying" might even include having max ranks). Competence items that scale up to +30 are a major culprit here, but they're not the only bullshit bonus.
Solution: Reign in miscellaneous skill bonuses to compact the spread, and assign DCs based on what actually gets accomplished, not what level you think people should be doing things at. At the same time, take into account the actual spread of the RNG relative to real people; DC 20 isn't "nearly impossible", because even 1st level commoners will have bonuses if they have any training. At the same time, DC 40 isn't the DC you should assign to climbing a mountain because you don't want people crossing it until past level 10 or something, or because you think it's really hard so only really awesome (and thus high level) characters can do it.

Then there's the problem where not all the skill divisions make sense; Use Rope on its own is kind of weird considering how broad Survival is. Plus there's the one with Skill taxes (you need both Hide and Move Silently) for certain niches.
Solution: Fold various skills into one another. This also helps people diversify in skills, since they now have more points relative to the number of skills that exist.

There's no reason to use most skills proactively, either; 9 times out of 10, you make a skill check in response to something the DM throws at you. The exceptions are mostly social interaction or specific schticks that other resources (like feats) enable, and a few one-off checks that you might make once per campaign if you're lucky. So there's not much of a huge incentive to pump your ranks in Jump, except possibly as part of some other schtick; it has very little value in itself.
Solution: Have skills grant actual benefits in a wide variety of situations, not just "You need to pass this to get to the plot" situations. Athletics increasing movement speed and suchlike.

Class skills always bugged me since I've come around to dissociating class with a character's fluff. There's no reason the dude who's memorized where kidneys are for stabbing can't have full ranks in Heal or Knowledge (nature) or what have you.
Solution: Disentangle skills from classes. A class can still grant skill points, if you want, but everyone should have some number of class skills, freely chosen, so as to suit their character background better.

Skills themselves rarely have a lot to offer, except for a few that everybody takes as a result when they can. Skills like Use Magic Device, Iaijutsu Focus, or any of the Knowledges that identify creatures, are the exceptions that make it impossible to fit other skills onto a character if they're not absolutely necessary, which is just bad for helping validate as many archetypes as possible.
Solution: Make more skills actually useful. This goes along with the problem of skills not having a proactive use; you need to give people a reason to take ranks in skills. This is a good place, by the way, to have ranks-based benefits, to incentivize actually training instead of just grabbing a mystical doodad or whatever. Ideally, you should have ranks-based benefits, and DC-based benefits; the former probably passive, like a bonus to speed, the latter active, like the ability to increase your initiative count slightly or something.
So you end up stuck in an endless loop, unable to act, forever.

In retrospect, much like Keanu Reeves.

Endarire

  • Man in Gorilla Suit
  • *****
  • Posts: 2171
    • Email
Re: Your grievances concerning skills
« Reply #48 on: February 20, 2011, 10:44:29 PM »
Skills I frequently use for any character:

-Creature Knowledges (Arcana, Dungeoneering, Nature, Planes, Psionics, Religion)
-Concentration
-Spot, Listen, Search
-Tumble

If I'm a skill monkey, I also often use these:
-Hide & Move Silently
-Open Lock & Disable Device (should be 1 skill)

I also take prereqs, like Perform for Bards.
Hood - My first answer to all your build questions; past, present, and future.

Speaking of which:
Don't even need TO for this.  Any decent Hood build, especially one with Celerity, one-rounds [Azathoth, the most powerful greater deity from d20 Cthulu].
Does it bug anyone else that we've reached the point where characters who can obliterate a greater deity in one round are considered "decent?"

Rejakor

  • Donkey Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 610
    • Email
Re: Your grievances concerning skills
« Reply #49 on: February 21, 2011, 12:29:29 PM »
If the party needs a skill monkey, I play a caster.

This is despite loving the rogue archetype to death.

Skills are just not worth giving up anything else for.

Brainpiercing

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1475
  • Thread Killer
    • Email
Re: Your grievances concerning skills
« Reply #50 on: February 21, 2011, 12:37:18 PM »
Skills I frequently use for any character:

-Creature Knowledges (Arcana, Dungeoneering, Nature, Planes, Psionics, Religion)
-Concentration
-Spot, Listen, Search
-Tumble

If I'm a skill monkey, I also often use these:
-Hide & Move Silently
-Open Lock & Disable Device (should be 1 skill)

I also take prereqs, like Perform for Bards.
These are pretty much a given, if they are class skills.

Also, I disagree with Bauglir that skills are mostly used reactively. I think it's up to the player to say "I'd like to do this and that, using that skill". Of course they are used to move the plot forward, and as such, jumping isn't something you need to do much unless you, um...., need to jump. So jump isn't a good example.
Ok, some skills are by design reactive: Spot/Listen (unless you are looking for someone), but even Disable Device - because it's not a skill like "Traps", which would be useful in a proactive sense, since you need Craft(Traps) for that.

The thing is, a GM has to actively request skill use, and then suddenly they become much more important. If EVERY member of the party has to make the rolls, then even more so. Sure, a caster can overcome a lot of skill challenges by bypassing them, but often you don't really want to bypass them. Skills are a way to get some spotlight. I actually fine those games more fun, where there isn't one Uber-character for a certain use. For example, if ONLY the diplomancer ever gets to talk to people, then that's boring.  If only the much contested scout gets to sneak, then that's boring, too.

So there are a lot of fixes for that in this thread.

I'm going to suggest another: Make it so that characters can actually succeed at normal tasks:

For example, spot. The ranges suggested in the DMG for when encounters start are sometimes fairly large. And if the encounter doesn't hide, it is usually automatically spotted. But if it hides, even with a result of 1, at a range of something like a few hundred feet, then you're just fucked. You simply cannot see it anymore.

snakeman830

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 3494
  • BG's resident furry min/maxxer
Re: Your grievances concerning skills
« Reply #51 on: February 21, 2011, 01:02:01 PM »
There are some skills which are tied to the class.  What Wizard doesn't have Spellcraft as a class skill (from an in-game standpoint).  If they've studied the principles of magic for years, then wouldn't they know?

I suggest that, while having a number of assignable class skills, there should be some that are automatic.  Knowledge (Religion) for Clerics, (Nature) for Druids and Rangers, Survival for Rangers, Perform for Bards, etc.
I am constantly amazed by how many DM's ban Tomb of Battle.  The book doesn't even exist!

Quotes:[spoiler]
By yes, she means no.
That explains so much about my life.
hiicantcomeupwithacharacterthatisntaghostwhyisthatamijustretardedorsomething
Why would you even do this? It hurts my eyes and looks like you ate your keyboard before suffering an attack of explosive diarrhea.
[/spoiler]

If using Genesis to hide your phylactry, set it at -300 degrees farenheit.  See how do-gooders fare with a liquid atmosphere.

veekie

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 9034
  • WARNING: Homing Miko
Re: Your grievances concerning skills
« Reply #52 on: February 21, 2011, 01:16:55 PM »
There are some skills which are tied to the class.  What Wizard doesn't have Spellcraft as a class skill (from an in-game standpoint).  If they've studied the principles of magic for years, then wouldn't they know?
There is room for inept wizards who can still cast. Some people just pay attention only to how to make the words go boom and not so much to the foundational theory.
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."

snakeman830

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 3494
  • BG's resident furry min/maxxer
Re: Your grievances concerning skills
« Reply #53 on: February 21, 2011, 01:33:57 PM »
There are some skills which are tied to the class.  What Wizard doesn't have Spellcraft as a class skill (from an in-game standpoint).  If they've studied the principles of magic for years, then wouldn't they know?
There is room for inept wizards who can still cast. Some people just pay attention only to how to make the words go boom and not so much to the foundational theory.
I figure that would be no ranks in the skill, but having it take a seclection of a class skill is kind of a dumb move.
I am constantly amazed by how many DM's ban Tomb of Battle.  The book doesn't even exist!

Quotes:[spoiler]
By yes, she means no.
That explains so much about my life.
hiicantcomeupwithacharacterthatisntaghostwhyisthatamijustretardedorsomething
Why would you even do this? It hurts my eyes and looks like you ate your keyboard before suffering an attack of explosive diarrhea.
[/spoiler]

If using Genesis to hide your phylactry, set it at -300 degrees farenheit.  See how do-gooders fare with a liquid atmosphere.

veekie

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 9034
  • WARNING: Homing Miko
Re: Your grievances concerning skills
« Reply #54 on: February 21, 2011, 01:39:54 PM »
Well the idea is they have the option not to excel, AND that its not a crippling option. If you drop spellcraft as a known skill, that doesn't hinder your wizard much except for scribing spells off others and analyzing for countermagic, and in low opt games, that doesn't even come up much.
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."

Maat_Mons

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1041
  • What is a smile but a grimace of happiness?
Re: Your grievances concerning skills
« Reply #55 on: February 21, 2011, 01:40:31 PM »
There is room for inept wizards who can still cast.

It seems like wizards that don't have any desire for familiars would be more common.  If not getting a familiar can be worked as an alternate class feature, I don't see why not studying spellcraft can't be. 

If being able to do something is so tied to a class that a member of that class who can't do it is an oddity, then making it an innate class feature really seems appropriate. 

There's room for barbarians that don't rage, bards that cast divine spells, clerics that don't turn undead, druids that don't wild shape, fighters that don't have heavy armor proficiency, paladins and rangers that don't cast spells, and rogues that don't sneak attack.  There are alternate class features for all of these.  You don't need to refrain from making something a class feature just because someone might not want it. 
« Last Edit: February 21, 2011, 01:56:59 PM by Maat_Mons »

veekie

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 9034
  • WARNING: Homing Miko
Re: Your grievances concerning skills
« Reply #56 on: February 21, 2011, 02:03:20 PM »
Thing is, spellcraft isn't an integral part of wizardry. A wizard with spellcraft has studied the subject of magical mechanics in depth, while one who hadn't might have painstakingly developed rituals that work to provide magical effects without knowing the true, higher correlation between the incantations and symbols with the arcane laws that generate the spell effect. Spellcraft also belongs OUTSIDE of the wizard, as you can know the lore by rote, but be incapable of applying it by drawing up the magical energies.
Wizard without Spellcraft - lose access to learning higher level spells(but note high Int, some spells and magic items get around this with ease) from other sources. Unable to know what opponent is casting until the spell effect is produced(which is practically speaking, only useful for counterspelling, which isn't a particularly good strategy). Lose access to a couple of metamagics, maybe. You wouldn't even notice the loss for the most part.
Wizard without Concentration - Unable to cast spells in less than ideal conditions. Adventuring wizards run into said conditions 2-3 times a day. You'd certainly notice the loss alright.
Spellcraft for non-wizards - Losing the use of scribing spells into book, any class with immediate action stuff might be interested in working out whats coming.
Concentration for non-casters - Aside from maybe disarming a trap in combat(why the hell are you doing that?), none?

Now, if you were talking about folding Spellcraft into knowledge(arcane) instead..
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."

snakeman830

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 3494
  • BG's resident furry min/maxxer
Re: Your grievances concerning skills
« Reply #57 on: February 21, 2011, 02:08:20 PM »
I'm just saying that there should be some automatic class skills.  Concentration should be an automatic for any caster/manifester and not require a choice to select it.

For example, you give everyone 10 class skills that they can select.  Wizards are going to select Concentration and Spellcraft (probably Knowledge Arcana too) because of how important they are to the class just to function properly.  Thus, these two (three) should automatically be class skills and not count against the ten.  Likewise, Bards should get Perform and Concentration and Clerics should get Knowledge (Religion) (in this case, not because it's integral to the class, but anyone drawing power from a diety should know stuff about them).
I am constantly amazed by how many DM's ban Tomb of Battle.  The book doesn't even exist!

Quotes:[spoiler]
By yes, she means no.
That explains so much about my life.
hiicantcomeupwithacharacterthatisntaghostwhyisthatamijustretardedorsomething
Why would you even do this? It hurts my eyes and looks like you ate your keyboard before suffering an attack of explosive diarrhea.
[/spoiler]

If using Genesis to hide your phylactry, set it at -300 degrees farenheit.  See how do-gooders fare with a liquid atmosphere.

veekie

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 9034
  • WARNING: Homing Miko
Re: Your grievances concerning skills
« Reply #58 on: February 21, 2011, 02:15:32 PM »
Well, there lies the key factor of giving automatic ranks in skills. Are they truly compulsory or is it just the tropes assuming it?
Concentration yes, for any caster.
Perform for any bard(given that they literally can't do bard things without)
Handle Animal, for Animal Companion classes to do anything with their companion.
Ride, for any free mount classes to actually use the mount.
Knowledges? No, not compulsory at all, buy them the regular way.

Stealth? Perception skills? Acrobatics skills? Trapper skills? These vary by interpretation. A rogue can certainly perform just fine without sneaking, through flanking or other means of unlocking sneak attack. Perception skills are an assumption of the scout-type classes, but they may or may not be scouting. Likewise with trap handling and tumbling.

So basically, yes, some skills should be given for free by the class. Perhaps Bard should automatically give you ranks in one perform equal to your bard level.
But theres no need to give skills that simply RELATE to the class like that.
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."

SneeR

  • Bi-Curious George
  • ****
  • Posts: 432
  • Sneering
Re: Your grievances concerning skills
« Reply #59 on: February 21, 2011, 02:36:14 PM »
I have to say Veekie's right, snakeman. I think that's going a little too far.
For starters, the skills that skillmonkeys choose defines them: "I am a CHA-based rogue. Disable Device? What? No, that wouldn't go with my backstory." I hate the idea of pigeonholing calsses like that.

I would have to say, too, that Kniowledge (arcana) is not at all integral to the wizard's functioning. Concentration isn't necessarily, either. If a wizard stays away from distracting elements and the attacks of his foes, he may never make a single Concentration check in an entire campaign. What if a wizard wants to blow his skill points on get the prereqs for skill tricks, then actually buying those skill tricks?

I absolutely can't stand it when people think that playing the stereotypical archetype of the class should be so easy as to not require effort, while making any deviation that much more difficult.
The answer to everything:
[spoiler][/spoiler]
SneeR
[spoiler]
I don't know if the designers meant you to take Skill Focus for every feat.
Sounds a little OP.

The monk is clearly the best class, no need to optimize here. What you are doing is overkill.

It's like people who have no idea what a turn signal is. They ruin it for everyone else.
When another driver brandishes a holy symbol and begins glowing with divine light, seek cover or get spattered with zombie brains. I do not see what is so complicated about this.
[/spoiler]