+20 to Touch Attacks @ 7-10 as a beatstick.

[skydragonknight]

You can probably use intuitive attack.

A pity that the only simple reach weapon is Longspear.

[Shadeseraph]

You can probably use intuitive attack.

A pity that the only simple reach weapon is Longspear.

But with a longspear you get to be as awesome and badass as Balsa!
[spoiler][/spoiler]

And, well, gauntlets are simple weapons, too.

[Lycanthromancer]

Hire a dedicated crafter and use your XP and your metamorphosis power to create a psychoactive skin of proteus. Every 7 minutes use it to manifest metamorphosis as a touch power on your psicrystal to turn it into something with at least 5' of reach (preferably more; I suggest a rust monster or hydra) and on yourself to become a shimmerling.

Early in the day manifest a 1 pp call weaponry and manifest graft weapon on it. Since the duration is 24 hours you can retain its benefits with your soulbound weapon for the whole day (you'll just need to manifest call weaponry again).

You'll want the following feats (be human or get flaws):
Psicrystal Affinity
Psicrystal Containment
Psionic Meditation
Weapon Finesse
Soulbound Weapon (trade a feat for it and get Weapon Focus in return)
Greater Weapon Focus
Linked Power
Overchannel
Metapower (Linked Power/synchronicity) to save you some power points

Then on your buff round use the following sequence (or something similar):
Standard: Call weaponry + Linked synchronicity (ready offensive precognition)
Swift: Hustle + Linked synchronicity (ready compression)
Move #1: Refocus
Move #2: Physical acceleration (augmented to a move action) + Linked synchronicity (ready animal affinity)

That way you get graft weapon and metamorphosis off before combat, call weaponry and physical acceleration on your buff round, and offensive precognition, compression, and animal affinity just before your turn on round 1.

If you nab an extra use of your psionic focus you could use grip of iron to use an immediate action to toss out another Linked Power, but we don't really need it here.

did ... did ... did you really just say that?  

Yeah. Yeah I did. And I didn't even realize until after I'd typed it out. Figured I'd keep it for kicks.

Now, given my complete lack of experience with psionics (sadly, I love the system but I've never had the pleasure to play it), how often is this possible? How much does this drain your power points, etc? If this is possible all day, every round of every encounter that's pretty impressive. Heck, even one encounter a day that's pretty dang impressive.

You should be able to do it at least once per day, maybe twice.

This is mostly for emergencies (when you just gotta say, "I'd hit that").

ok, great. Now do it with a human fighter! :>

No.

Because fighters are obviously more powerful than psychic warriors, what with the full BAB and all. Obviously psywars have to struggle to keep up with that and like the 3 extra feats.  

You can probably use intuitive attack.

A pity that the only simple reach weapon is Longspear.

There are ways and there are ways. Aren't natural attacks considered simple? Also, feats and abilities (and psionic powers) that grant reach. Oh, and size (expansion!).

[Ras F]

There are ways and there are ways. Aren't natural attacks considered simple? Also, feats and abilities (and psionic powers) that grant reach. Oh, and size (expansion!).

[X-Codes]

I feel like making one.  Just consider this a random post.

Human Bard 10 w/ Song of the Heart, Words of Creation, Inspirational Boost, and Badge of Valor, applied sanely (so +7 Inspire Courage, +5 HD Inspire Greatness)

Feats: Extra Music, Lingering Song, Melodic Casting, Practiced Spellcaster [Bard], Words of Creation, Power Attack

Ideally you will have a lesser Quicken rod by now, although depending on what kind of Metamagic shenanigans the group is capable of you may not need it (Persistent on Continuous Use item of Harmonize is required of any bard worth half a shit).

Round 1- Quickened Harmonize, Inspire Greatness, Improvisation (CL 14)
Round 2- Inspirational Boost, Inspire Courage, Haste
Round 3- Badge of Valor, move, Sculpted Whirling Blade

+7 BAB
+6 Charisma (22)
+7 Inspire Courage
+5 Inspire Greatness
+7 Improvisation
+1 Haste
+1 Enhancement (at least)

Total: +34 to hit.

If you use a +1 longsword in two hands, you will do 1d8+9(Cha)+7(Inspire Courage)+1(Enhancement), for 21.5 average damage, and you've got 4 attacks at +34 before Improvisation runs out.  That said, there's obviously more than enough attack bonus to Power Attack with.

[Dictum Mortuum]

That practiced spellcaster (bard) plus inspire greatness is AWESOME
I need to update the handbook.

[Ras F]

That practiced spellcaster (bard) plus inspire greatness is AWESOME
I need to update the handbook.

It lost me.
Amongst being non-competent with bards, and psionics, I'm also ignorant of martial adepts.

http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=274871

Yet I went with 2 of those 3. Go figure. I'm not sure what else to do with this, or if it's even worth improving.
Only 16k gold spent. Lots of empty feats, skill points are largely just filled in around requirements and not set in stone. Only first manifester level, no idea what initiator level. Missing stance/maneuver choices. No flaws taken, but that's an option. Psionic Talent might be a bad feat, but I threw it in for the PP reserve >1 requirement of the -kineticist.

In short, it doesn't meet the criteria of the topic, but it can most definitely be improved.

I'm a far-cry from an excellent optimizer, hence wanting more input.

[Garryl]

That practiced spellcaster (bard) plus inspire greatness is AWESOME
I need to update the handbook.

Wait, so it's not a mistake in the CL?
What is it, Greatness for +2 HD (+4 with Words of Creation), which allows you to get the CL boost from Practiced Spellcaster since your CL is now less than your HD? Did I get that right?



By the way, Ras F, the Kineticist is actually 3.0 material. It's inspired by the Pyrokineticist, but that's the 3.0 psionics Pyro. The current Pyrokineticist from the XPH/SRD is also descended from that Pyro (although in a different way). It also got a variant for different energy types (sadly, no variant to bring back the manifesting progression).

[skydragonknight]

That practiced spellcaster (bard) plus inspire greatness is AWESOME
I need to update the handbook.

Wait, so it's not a mistake in the CL?
What is it, Greatness for +2 HD (+4 with Words of Creation), which allows you to get the CL boost from Practiced Spellcaster since your CL is now less than your HD? Did I get that right?

More or less, yes. This was known quite a while back, but not well known since most bards PrC out before achieving Greatness.

[Ras F]

I used the SRD Pyrokineticist as the premise for that character there, I just didn't pick what variant, so as to leave as many options open as possible. That's why I kept referring to it as an un-prefixed "-kineticist". Dash intentional.

[Volfogg]

I feel like making one.  Just consider this a random post.

Human Bard 10 w/ Song of the Heart, Words of Creation, Inspirational Boost, and Badge of Valor, applied sanely (so +7 Inspire Courage, +5 HD Inspire Greatness)

Feats: Extra Music, Lingering Song, Melodic Casting, Practiced Spellcaster [Bard], Words of Creation, Power Attack

Ideally you will have a lesser Quicken rod by now, although depending on what kind of Metamagic shenanigans the group is capable of you may not need it (Persistent on Continuous Use item of Harmonize is required of any bard worth half a shit).

Round 1- Quickened Harmonize, Inspire Greatness, Improvisation (CL 14)
Round 2- Inspirational Boost, Inspire Courage, Haste
Round 3- Badge of Valor, move, Sculpted Whirling Blade

+7 BAB
+6 Charisma (22)
+7 Inspire Courage
+5 Inspire Greatness
+7 Improvisation
+1 Haste
+1 Enhancement (at least)

Total: +34 to hit.

If you use a +1 longsword in two hands, you will do 1d8+9(Cha)+7(Inspire Courage)+1(Enhancement), for 21.5 average damage, and you've got 4 attacks at +34 before Improvisation runs out.  That said, there's obviously more than enough attack bonus to Power Attack with.

I am having a stupid moment and cannot for the life of me figure out how you are getting Cha to damage/attack. Any clarification on that would be greatly appreciated.

Cheers
Volf

[skydragonknight]

I am having a stupid moment and cannot for the life of me figure out how you are getting Cha to damage/attack. Any clarification on that would be greatly appreciated.

Cheers
Volf

Whirling Blade spell in spell compendium uses your casting stat for attack/damage.

[Volfogg]

I am having a stupid moment and cannot for the life of me figure out how you are getting Cha to damage/attack. Any clarification on that would be greatly appreciated.

Cheers
Volf

Whirling Blade spell in spell compendium uses your casting stat for attack/damage.

Ugh, I cannot believe I missed that. For some odd reason I was thinking that the bard was running around in melee combat using his Cha for attack/damage. Thanks for the help Skydragonknight.

Cheers
Volf

[Garryl]

I used the SRD Pyrokineticist as the premise for that character there, I just didn't pick what variant, so as to leave as many options open as possible. That's why I kept referring to it as an un-prefixed "-kineticist". Dash intentional.

My bad, sorry about that. I should have noticed due to the rest of your build. You might want to switch the level of Psychic Warrior for a level of Psion, though (unless you're planning on taking more Psy War levels). You'd get some PP to enter -kineticist without burning a feat, and you'd still get a bonus psionic feat to spend on whatever you want. You don't even lose any BaB, just 2 hp from the lower hit die.

[X-Codes]

I am having a stupid moment and cannot for the life of me figure out how you are getting Cha to damage/attack. Any clarification on that would be greatly appreciated.

Cheers
Volf

Whirling Blade spell in spell compendium uses your casting stat for attack/damage.

Ugh, I cannot believe I missed that. For some odd reason I was thinking that the bard was running around in melee combat using his Cha for attack/damage. Thanks for the help Skydragonknight.

Cheers
Volf

Well, I think Slippers of Battledancing become affordable around this level, so it's not like he COULDN'T do that.

[JaronK]

So, the original claim was that any beatstick who can't get +30 to hit at level 10 was a "gimp" and that a +20 touch attack was also expected.  But looking through the Monster Manual at appropriate enemies, this seems completely unnecessary.  Let's have a quick look at CR 8-14 enemies (the ones you expect to fight around level 10, either groups of CR 8-11s or single 10-14s)

The first placed I looked was the Demons.  Here's how the appropriate ones stack up.

Hezrou:  CR 11.  AC 23, Touch 9. 
Bebilith: CR 10, AC 22, Touch 9. 
Glabrezu:  CR 13, AC 27, Touch 8.
Nalfeshnee:  CR 14, AC 27, Touch 9. 
Retriever: CR 11, AC 21, Touch 11. 
Vrock: CR 9, AC 22, Touch 11.

So just looking at that, you'd hardly be a "gimp" below a to hit of 30.  Even the CR 14 enemy only requires at best a +26 (note the original statement was for a Warblade, who is making a single attack, not iteratives), while most enemies are hit on a 2 even at just +21 to +22 to hit.  And touch only requires a +10 or so for even the hardest of threats.  I suppose the basic argument is that you should be power attacking, but Shock Trooper still exists for that and maneuvers do decent damage even without serious Power Attack (plus, their touch ACs are pathetically low, so Emerald Razor makes this trivial).  "Gimp" evidently here means "character who's not so optimized he auto hits even the toughest of enemies."

I think there's been some work done on what normal ACs are per level for Monsters... how does that stack up to this?

JaronK

[BrokeAndDrive]

Hezrou:  CR 11.  AC 23, Touch 9. 
Bebilith: CR 10, AC 22, Touch 9. 
Glabrezu:  CR 13, AC 27, Touch 8.
Nalfeshnee:  CR 14, AC 27, Touch 9. 
Retriever: CR 11, AC 21, Touch 11. 
Vrock: CR 9, AC 22, Touch 11.

Here's a handful of CR 8-15 beastie from MMIII, MMIV*, and MMV (one for every letter of the alphabet that I could find):
* Apparently this one doesn't have a "list of monsters by CR", or at least my copy doesn't, even though it says so in the ToC.

Arcane Ooze: CR 9, AC 3, Touch 3
Bladerager Troll: CR 8, AC 25, Touch 12
Cinder Swarm: CR 13, AC 25, Touch 24
Deathshrieker: CR 15, AC 28, Touch 28
Eldritch Giant: CR 15, AC 32, Touch 9
Forest Haunt: CR 10, AC 11, Touch 11
Grisgol: CR 15, AC 28, Touch 9
Hobgoblin Warsoul: CR 8, AC 20, Touch 14
Illurien: CR 15, AC 24, Touch 16
Justicator: CR 13, AC 26, Touch 12
Lumi Crusader: CR  8, AC 21, Touch 9
Mockery Monarch: CR 14, AC 34, Touch 25
Nozgug: CR 8, AC 14, Touch 9
Ball of Arms Man Odopi: CR 14, AC 28, Touch 14
Prismatic Roper: CR 9, AC 22, Touch 11
Ryklar Harridan: CR 9, AC 24, Touch 10
Shimmerling Swarm: CR 8, AC 24, Touch 24
Thoon Elder Brain: CR 15, AC 26, Touch 11
Ultroloth: CR 13, AC 21, Touch 13
Woodling Druid: CR 11, AC 28, Touch 13
Xylophone: Because X is always for xylophone

[Esgath]

Apparently this one doesn't have a "list of monsters by CR", or at least my copy doesn't, even though it says so in the ToC.

Not on page 221, but on page 204. At least in my copy.

[Agita]

[...]
I think there's been some work done on what normal ACs are per level for Monsters... how does that stack up to this?

JaronK

There's the Optimization by the Numbers thread.
Looking at CR 8-14, the averages range from 20 to 28 for full AC and 7.17 to 11 for touch AC. Maxima are between 27 and 35 for AC, and 14-25 for touch AC. There seems to be an outlier monster at CR 11 with extra high touch AC.

The relevant bits:

Code: [Select]

[b] hp init AC touch ff_ac bab fort ref will[/b]
[...]
Summary for 'challenge_rating' =  8 (31 detail records)
Avg 96.48 3.19 20.00 10.58 18.32 9.43 9.19 7.65 7.45
Max 180 10 27 20 26 15 16 14 11
Summary for 'challenge_rating' =  9 (31 detail records)
Avg 130.65 3.61 21.74 10.45 19.68 11.97 12.13 9.81 8.58
Max 230 14 29 18 28 18 19 22 13
Summary for 'challenge_rating' =  10 (19 detail records)
Avg 136.53 2.79 22.58 9.26 21.42 13.21 11.63 8.58 9.11
Max 305 8 33 13 33 24 22 19 14
Summary for 'challenge_rating' =  11 (24 detail records)
Avg 163.83 3.96 23.71 10.92 21.38 14.25 13.75 10.63 10.3
Max 228 15 29 25 27 24 20 25 14
Summary for 'challenge_rating' =  12 (12 detail records)
Avg 196.33 1.58 21.75 7.17 21.42 17.00 15.42 9.33 9.08
Max 300 5 28 13 28 30 25 12 15
Summary for 'challenge_rating' =  13 (12 detail records)
Avg 167.00 2.92 27.33 10.25 26.00 14.42 14.17 9.83 12.4
Max 230 5 32 14 31 20 18 14 16
Summary for 'challenge_rating' =  14 (12 detail records)
Avg 180.33 4.50 27.00 11.00 25.17 16.17 15.92 11.83 14.0
Max 287 8 35 14 35 23 19 13 18

I'm guessing Sunic wants to make sure one can reliably hit even the highest AC monsters, and have plenty of room for Power Attack on lower-AC monsters.

[skydragonknight]

My personal rule of thumb is that your worst iterative should have at least a 50% chance of success to be a competent full-attacker. Looks like most monsters  (from Brokes sample...haven't dived into JaronK's yet) have AC of CR+15 or less, so for levels 6-10 you'd need CR+10 attack bonus minimum and for 11-15 you'd need CR+15 attack bonus minimum for effective iteratives.

So you wouldn't even need +30 to hit until level 15. And that assumes you're a full-attacker. Single attackers (maneuver users) need a little less.

Power attackers I expect to go the extra mile and grab either shock trooper, touch attacks or stack bonuses like Song of the White Raven + Martial Discipline weapons + prone (improved trip). They should always be able to power attack for half their level safely once their bonuses are set (never more than a single round), so +31 to hit at level 11 (11+15+5 PA) barring shock trooper/touch attacks would be one standard for a competent power attacker (alternative standards are +26 and shock trooper or to use touch attacks, so not the only definition of competence).

Field Test
Woodling Druid: CR 11, AC 28, Touch 13

An above-the-curve monster. Should be able to PA for -5 safely from +31: +26/21/16. Need a natural 2/7/12 to hit...two should connect, and against one of the toughest ACs of this CR. That's competent melee.