Author Topic: Tiers for gestalt combinations?  (Read 16529 times)

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BrokeAndDrive

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Tiers for gestalt combinations?
« on: February 04, 2011, 10:51:44 AM »
Was reading the tier system for classes thread, and one of the ideas for lower-tiers to play with highers is to allow them to gestalt. And that got me thinking

We all know that Wizard//Archivist and CaDzilla is Tier 0 madness, but what about, say, Factotum//Warblade? (possibly the ultimate "mundane") Is that still Tier 3? Is a Fighter//Monk bumped to Tier 4? What about, e.g., Scout//Ranger, Beguiler//Psion, or Bard//Warlock?
Random quotes:[spoiler]I think Roy's coinages are shitty and dumb, but Failroy has to take the cake for the dumbest new compound word of the year
~

That was kind of the point. I was trying to be a Roy parody, but I guess it didn't come across overly well.

==

JaronK is of course most famous for his massive thought experiments into placing classes into tiers. While a kind of nifty idea, and a decent enough way to think about stuff, his particular tier assignments were basically insane. Apparently the criteria he used was to assign classes relative strength based on what bullshit he personally would let them get away with at 20th level.

So Factotums were rated very highly, because apparently he would let them use Rokugan-exclusive skills with Forgotten Realms-exclusive weapons from the back of MM2 templated warbeasts. But Rogues suck donkey dick, becuase he wouldn't let them use Use Magic Device to read scrolls of Planar Binding. It was a very surreal argument.
~

And to think the system was immortalized in OOTS. As a general rule, I try to avoid all tier discussion there because it's the De Facto system at BG, and I'm not going to change anyone's mind.

Besides, I think if most people are pressed, they will admit that it's just an estimate, anyway, and that results can vary from table to table.
~

My only real complaint with the tier system is that at one point I was tired (tiered?) of hearing about it.[/spoiler]

CantripN

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Re: Tiers for gestalt combinations?
« Reply #1 on: February 04, 2011, 10:56:28 AM »
Factotum/Anything Useful is bumped at least 1 Tier, sometimes 2.

The Factotum of War is a REALLY high Tier 3, and if you bring Chameleon or the like into it, it's more or less Tier 1.
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BrokeAndDrive

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Re: Tiers for gestalt combinations?
« Reply #2 on: February 04, 2011, 11:05:08 AM »
So a Warblade 20//Factotum 10/Chameleon 10 is almost as awesome as a wizard?

Nice.

Oh, just thought of something: Warblade + Alter Self = :drool
Random quotes:[spoiler]I think Roy's coinages are shitty and dumb, but Failroy has to take the cake for the dumbest new compound word of the year
~

That was kind of the point. I was trying to be a Roy parody, but I guess it didn't come across overly well.

==

JaronK is of course most famous for his massive thought experiments into placing classes into tiers. While a kind of nifty idea, and a decent enough way to think about stuff, his particular tier assignments were basically insane. Apparently the criteria he used was to assign classes relative strength based on what bullshit he personally would let them get away with at 20th level.

So Factotums were rated very highly, because apparently he would let them use Rokugan-exclusive skills with Forgotten Realms-exclusive weapons from the back of MM2 templated warbeasts. But Rogues suck donkey dick, becuase he wouldn't let them use Use Magic Device to read scrolls of Planar Binding. It was a very surreal argument.
~

And to think the system was immortalized in OOTS. As a general rule, I try to avoid all tier discussion there because it's the De Facto system at BG, and I'm not going to change anyone's mind.

Besides, I think if most people are pressed, they will admit that it's just an estimate, anyway, and that results can vary from table to table.
~

My only real complaint with the tier system is that at one point I was tired (tiered?) of hearing about it.[/spoiler]

CantripN

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Re: Tiers for gestalt combinations?
« Reply #3 on: February 04, 2011, 11:14:48 AM »
Actually, more like Factotum 11 / Chameleon 9.

Or even better, Factotum 19 / Chameleon +1 // Warblade 8 / Chameleon 9 / Swashbuckler 3. Other options exist. I just like having Factotum 19 and the extra stuff you get.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2011, 11:17:27 AM by CantripN »
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JaronK

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Re: Tiers for gestalt combinations?
« Reply #4 on: February 04, 2011, 07:07:39 PM »
Factotum 20//Warblade 10/Chameleon 10 would be the way to do that.  Really though, Gestalt just gives more options, so it's rare for a Gestalt combo to be much higher ranked than one side of the gestalt until you get to lower tiers (where classes are less versatile in general).  Wizard//Archivist is T1... it really doesn't do much that either one of those couldn't do already, it just makes it a touch easier. 

Factotum's generally a noticeable bump for any caster, though.  Factotum 8 is just so huge for them, and Factotum 11 isn't half bad either.  Plus, the Int synergy is fantastic...

JaronK

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Re: Tiers for gestalt combinations?
« Reply #5 on: February 04, 2011, 10:05:56 PM »
Factotum 20//Warblade 10/Chameleon 10 would be the way to do that. 
Well, given how maneuvers are learned, and the relatively usefulness of spells at lower levels, I'd push the chameleon forward a bit (maybe Warblade5/Chameleon10/Warblade 5 or something)
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JaronK

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Re: Tiers for gestalt combinations?
« Reply #6 on: February 04, 2011, 10:10:46 PM »
Yeah, I was just giving the shorthand.  You'd definitely want to get into Chameleon ASAP and finish it as quick as you can too.  Might even consider throwing a Bloodline in there for extra fun.

JaronK

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Re: Tiers for gestalt combinations?
« Reply #7 on: February 05, 2011, 05:19:38 PM »
Heh ... it's totally possible that two Tiers 5s gestalted, are still Tier 5.
 :fu:banghead:lol


I was thinking about what to call the stuff above Tier 1.
It can keep going, but with obvious discernible levels.
Like
comfortably and easily 2x actions and 2x resources = A-tier
or
comfortably and easily 5x actions and 5x resources = B-tier
comfortably and easily 10x actions and 10x resources = C-tier

Leadership isn't A-tier but it's close.
Thrallherd is A-tier but it's not from levels 1 to 10
Gestalt tier 1s can be A-tier but need an obvious action adder.

Beholder Mage and Planar Shepherd feel kinda B-tier without any thinking.
etc ...

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Re: Tiers for gestalt combinations?
« Reply #8 on: February 05, 2011, 05:45:14 PM »
Factotum + anything is tier of 3 or whatever the "anything" is bumped up at least one (so a Factotum/Warblade or Factotum/Swordsage is Tier 2, Factotum/Warlock is Tier 3, etc.).

For most everything else, it's most likely just the better tier of the two.  Sure, something like a Wizard/Ranger is a really tough Wizard, but there's not much of anything special going on there otherwise that couldn't be done by a non-Gestalted Wizard, and this is probably one of the best class synergies in the game (take a Wizard, and remove all the built-in "drawbacks" to playing a Wizard).

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Re: Tiers for gestalt combinations?
« Reply #9 on: February 05, 2011, 05:58:06 PM »
Beguiler//Psion ... or any Non-psi Caster // Psi Caster
don't have the metamagic/psi synergy (excepting the Magic Mantle).
Personally, I think it just makes extra options.

Consider a Druid//Psion that's half the Quick Start Druid and half a Carnivore build.
Little crossover, and feat poor.
Now ... Astral Construct "armor" on the animal companion, sounds pretty good  :D

CantripN

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Re: Tiers for gestalt combinations?
« Reply #10 on: February 05, 2011, 05:59:53 PM »
Oh, I'm not sure about that last one with the Ranger//Wizard. It'd be a Full BAB, d8 HD, All Good Saves Wizard. And you'd have Wildshape and go for Planar Shephard with that. Not to mention Mystic Ranger and SotAO for even more spells...

Or Psion // Wilder. That's solving the problem of Psionics in one fell swoop. You have all the spells known and PP you could ever wish for.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2011, 06:01:34 PM by CantripN »
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Endarire

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Re: Tiers for gestalt combinations?
« Reply #11 on: February 05, 2011, 08:37:13 PM »
Spell to Power Erudite//Metamind with infinite PP may trump CantripN's Psion//Wilder.
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Re: Tiers for gestalt combinations?
« Reply #12 on: February 05, 2011, 08:42:53 PM »
Oh, I'm not sure about that last one with the Ranger//Wizard. It'd be a Full BAB, d8 HD, All Good Saves Wizard. And you'd have Wildshape and go for Planar Shephard with that. Not to mention Mystic Ranger and SotAO for even more spells...
Well, that's more of a Planar Shepherd thing than a Wizard/Ranger thing.  Planar Shepherd, Dweomerkeeper, and Incantatrix are already pretty much Tier 0 PrCs: essentially broken as written if you play them half-competently.

JaronK

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Re: Tiers for gestalt combinations?
« Reply #13 on: February 05, 2011, 10:02:39 PM »
Factotum + anything is tier of 3 or whatever the "anything" is bumped up at least one (so a Factotum/Warblade or Factotum/Swordsage is Tier 2, Factotum/Warlock is Tier 3, etc.).

Not sure about that, because it's not like a Factotum//Warblade can do anything that a Warblade and Factotum couldn't do already.  I mean sure, you'd be more flexible, but you're not T2 unless you're able to dramatically change the game world with your class abilities.  I find gestalting tends to bring things up towards T3, but rarely over it.  Factotum/Warlock obviously hits T3 because Factotum already is T3 of course.

Fighter//Ninja obvious jumps at least a Tier due to actually being useful in many situations.

Quote
For most everything else, it's most likely just the better tier of the two.  Sure, something like a Wizard/Ranger is a really tough Wizard, but there's not much of anything special going on there otherwise that couldn't be done by a non-Gestalted Wizard, and this is probably one of the best class synergies in the game (take a Wizard, and remove all the built-in "drawbacks" to playing a Wizard).

I'd say that at T3+, you usually just stay the tier of the strongest class (but obviously you probably get more flexible, so T2s actually generally gain quite a lot).  T4 and below it depends... sometimes due to increased flexibility you jump a tier.  

But it's all pretty fuzzy anyway when you're talking about various gestalt combos.  There's a lot of possibility.

JaronK
« Last Edit: February 06, 2011, 08:50:17 AM by JaronK »

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Re: Tiers for gestalt combinations?
« Reply #14 on: February 06, 2011, 07:44:35 AM »
Factotum + anything is tier of 3 or whatever the "anything" is bumped up at least one (so a Factotum/Warblade or Factotum/Swordsage is Tier 2, Factotum/Warlock is Tier 3, etc.).

Not sure about that, because it's not like a Factotum//Warblade can do anything that a Warblade and Factotum couldn't do already.  I mean sure, you'd be more flexible, but you're not T2 unless you're able to dramatically change the game world with your class abilities.  I find gestalting tends to bring things up towards T3, but rarely over it.  Factotum/Warlock obviously hits T3 because Factotum already is T3 of course.
It's because of the capacity to break the action economy and do something useful with it.  That's the one thing the Factotum class itself is inherently missing.

JaronK

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Re: Tiers for gestalt combinations?
« Reply #15 on: February 06, 2011, 08:52:06 AM »
Eh, Factotums already have a bunch of spells they can throw out as standard actions.  I'm not sure that Maneuvers are necessarily better than that, they just get more of them.  Like, what 5th level maneuver competes with Animate Dead?  Sure, a Factotum//Warblade is pretty darn awesome in combat, but I'm not seeing how they're actually campaign changing.  VERY high T3 to be sure.  But T2?  Not sure I buy it.  Not even with Factotum//Beguiler who already has 9th level spells.  They're just doing what a Warblade or Beguiler could do anyway, only faster.  That's awesome, but I'm not sure it really changes the scope of what they do.

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Re: Tiers for gestalt combinations?
« Reply #16 on: February 06, 2011, 09:00:40 AM »
Facototum//spellthief definitely jumps into tier 2.  Unlimited castings/day is enough to make the transition, IMO.
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Re: Tiers for gestalt combinations?
« Reply #17 on: February 06, 2011, 09:10:58 AM »
Actually Tier 1//Factotum should be higher than Tier 1//Tier 1
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JaronK

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Re: Tiers for gestalt combinations?
« Reply #18 on: February 06, 2011, 09:26:27 AM »
Facototum//spellthief definitely jumps into tier 2.  Unlimited castings/day is enough to make the transition, IMO.

I'm guessing you're assuming you can steal from yourself?  If so, probably due to the Spellthief's unique stealing method when it comes to spell like abilities.  Of course, you still won't have as high level spells as a "proper" T2 caster, but it's hard to beat unlimited spam of any spell on the Sor/Wiz list, even if it is lower level.  But other than that rather unique interaction, I'm not sure Factotum's going to take any class above T3... even though what it does to classes that are already above T3 is rather impressive.

And yeah, Factotum makes anything that uses standard actions well (like casters and martial adepts) far better, so Archivist//Factotum is likely better than Wizard//Archivist.  But that's more because Wizard adds very little to Archivist than anything else, and Factotum really does add quite a bit.  But Druid//Cleric has a pretty darn solid claim to being better than Druid//Factotum or Cleric//Factotum.  It's hard to argue with a giant bear man and his velociraptor friend when that guy's also using persistent Righteous Wrath of the Faithful and Divine Power.

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« Last Edit: February 06, 2011, 09:34:39 AM by JaronK »

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Re: Tiers for gestalt combinations?
« Reply #19 on: February 06, 2011, 11:05:12 AM »
Wait, what about a Factotum//Artificier?  I'd think that it would gain just as much as a wizard or archivist gestalted such that they get a bunch of standard actions they didn't normally have.