Author Topic: Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?  (Read 100355 times)

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Akalsaris

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Re: Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?
« Reply #400 on: February 10, 2011, 12:33:49 AM »
Actually, I think a 'Stealthy Guy' guide would make an excellent addition to the handbooks section.  It's quite simple to optimize (JaronK hit all the big points in a terrific post), and done right it has the potential to make fights easier.  Much like poisons, you can also boost your scouting quite high for relatively low investment with the right characters, which is why so many of my own characters frequently end up scout-types - my swift hunter, druid, and cleric are all scouts for their respective parties, using slightly different abilities in each case.

wotmaniac

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Re: Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?
« Reply #401 on: February 10, 2011, 01:08:16 AM »
here's your 10th level beatstick with +20 to hit .... and just to emphasis it, I'll even stay in Core:
half-orc barbarian 2/fighter 8
abilities: str 20 (24 while raging) (16 base +2racial +2levels) ; rest stats = doesn't matter.
feats:
1 wpn focus - whatever
....
....
8(b) Gr. wpn focus -

That's a +19 completely naked.  add in a measly +2 weapon (8k gp out of 49k), and you're at a +21.  Done.

Same build up to level 8, with a flanking buddy, still gets you a +21.
same up to level 6 + bull's strength (either by intra-party spell, or by drinking a potion), still gets you a +20

There -- +20 with a level 6 beatstick ... core only.

below that level, you probably need to go outside of core, but it's still pretty easy (even with only using 1 or 2 non-core books ... and if you're using MIC, then all bets are off).

oops -- missed the point :blush
« Last Edit: February 10, 2011, 01:23:06 AM by wotmaniac »

[spoiler]
If you stop ignoring 289 pages telling what the intent is to stretch "more power" in your own god complexion of your interpretation trumps all to cover ability adjustments from aging then I will ignore a quarter page of rules that exist within a sidebar.
I think in this case the grammar is less important than whether the Str and Dex bonus provided to your created undead scales.

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bkdubs123

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Re: Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?
« Reply #402 on: February 10, 2011, 01:12:11 AM »
here's your 10th level beatstick with +20 to hit .... and just to emphasis it, I'll even stay in Core:
half-orc barbarian 2/fighter 8
abilities: str 20 (24 while raging) (16 base +2racial +2levels) ; rest stats = doesn't matter.
feats:
1 wpn focus - whatever
....
....
8(b) Gr. wpn focus -

That's a +19 completely naked.  add in a measly +2 weapon (8k gp out of 49k), and you're at a +21.  Done.

Same build up to level 8, with a flanking buddy, still gets you a +20.
below that level, you probably need to go outside of core, but it's still pretty easy (even with only using 1 or 2 non-core books ... and if you're using MIC, then all bets are off).

Wow, this is not the point. I know +20 to hit isn't hard if you use templates and non-standard races and spend some feats, etc. Sunic is claiming +30 at 10th with ease along with stats other than Strength that are relevant and I assume strong saves and other goodies. I also assume "gimp" feats like Weapon Focus would be laughed at. He says this is easy, I've asked him at least twice to provide any evidence of this, and he's refused.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2011, 01:16:06 AM by bkdubs123 »

wotmaniac

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Re: Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?
« Reply #403 on: February 10, 2011, 01:18:54 AM »
here's your 10th level beatstick with +20 to hit .... and just to emphasis it, I'll even stay in Core:
half-orc barbarian 2/fighter 8
abilities: str 20 (24 while raging) (16 base +2racial +2levels) ; rest stats = doesn't matter.
feats:
1 wpn focus - whatever
....
....
8(b) Gr. wpn focus -

That's a +19 completely naked.  add in a measly +2 weapon (8k gp out of 49k), and you're at a +21.  Done.

Same build up to level 8, with a flanking buddy, still gets you a +20.
below that level, you probably need to go outside of core, but it's still pretty easy (even with only using 1 or 2 non-core books ... and if you're using MIC, then all bets are off).

Wow, this is not the point. I know +20 to hit isn't hard if you use templates and non-standard races and spend some feats, etc. Sunic is claiming +30 at 10th with ease along with stats other than Strength that are relevant and I assume strong saves and other goodies. He says this is easy, I've asked him at least twice to provide any evidence of this, and he's refused.
oh, +30 ... my bad.  :blush

okay ... just off the top of my head ....
... yeah, sorry -- I'm capping-out at around +26. :shrug  (well, I'm pretty sure I can push it to 30+, but then that's the only thing that he'll be doing; meaning he'll be worthless at everything else ....)
« Last Edit: February 10, 2011, 01:21:39 AM by wotmaniac »

[spoiler]
If you stop ignoring 289 pages telling what the intent is to stretch "more power" in your own god complexion of your interpretation trumps all to cover ability adjustments from aging then I will ignore a quarter page of rules that exist within a sidebar.
I think in this case the grammar is less important than whether the Str and Dex bonus provided to your created undead scales.

Greenbound Summoning RAI
Expanded Gestalt
More Savage Progressions[/spoiler]
Report any wrongs I have done here.

bkdubs123

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Re: Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?
« Reply #404 on: February 10, 2011, 01:24:13 AM »
okay ... just off the top of my head ....
... yeah, sorry -- I'm capping-out at around +26. :shrug  (well, I'm pretty sure I can push it to 30+, but then that's the only thing that he'll be doing; meaning he'll be worthless at everything else ....)

Exactly. That's about the best I could come up with, but according to Sunic any melee character without +30 to hit is a joke, and, I'm just assuming from his perspective on IP, but without saves that nearly auto-succeed even a character with +30 to hit is probably still a joke. But he never said that, so as I said, I'm just assuming.

Shadowhunter

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Re: Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?
« Reply #405 on: February 10, 2011, 01:28:28 AM »
It would be very educational if nothing else.
[Spoiler]
Quote from: Runestar
the most effective optimization is the one you can actually get away with.  :smirk

Quote from: Vinom
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I often have to remind people not to underrate divination.  The ability to effectively metagame without actually metagaming beats the ability to set things on fire more times than not.
[/quote]
[/spoiler]

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wotmaniac

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Re: Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?
« Reply #406 on: February 10, 2011, 01:32:07 AM »
It would be very educational if nothing else.
EXACTLY!!

Come on Sunic -- please enlighten us.  Seriously, we're all stuck here; so hows about you contribute some actual substantive content, and thus empowering everyone with tools to not fail so bad.

[spoiler]
If you stop ignoring 289 pages telling what the intent is to stretch "more power" in your own god complexion of your interpretation trumps all to cover ability adjustments from aging then I will ignore a quarter page of rules that exist within a sidebar.
I think in this case the grammar is less important than whether the Str and Dex bonus provided to your created undead scales.

Greenbound Summoning RAI
Expanded Gestalt
More Savage Progressions[/spoiler]
Report any wrongs I have done here.

Kajhera

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Re: Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?
« Reply #407 on: February 10, 2011, 01:34:45 AM »
Sigh - here's your melee character with +30 to hit.

Cleric of Hextor/Heironeous - law devotion, war domain.
Cleric 5/Ordained Champion 5.

Decent STR.

Swift True Strike. Should get you there.

JaronK

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Re: Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?
« Reply #408 on: February 10, 2011, 01:34:59 AM »
As for Jaron, and his massive wall of text, his words might have some merit had he not honestly claimed, on many occasions that playing enemies remotely intelligently or competently is worth large CR boosts. Since he has, all he's proven is that he can beat other mouth breathing fuckwits.

I've never claimed this.  I have had that the encounter level of an encounter (which, in the case of monsters, is effectively the same as CR) is altered by giving the creature significant abilities above and beyond what the stock creature has (like Mindsight) and by giving the creature information it shouldn't have (like enough to create an ambush).  I have consistently said that creatures should behave intelligently within the bounds of what they know.  This is why I said the CR goes up when you customize the feats to be much stronger and let the creature know more than it should, but then criticized you for playing that creature so stupidly once you had given it that info.  Read the DMG for more information on this.

Remember, the normal CR guidelines assume a standard encounter start (you and the monster somehow get within range of each other and spot each other) and standard feats/HD/skills.  The more you give to the monster, the higher the overall Encounter Level.  But once the EL is set, you should play the monster appropriately... an Int 22 monster who can see through walls but knows enough about the party to know about the Cleric having Lifesense should obvious bury himself in the snow so he's hidden from that sense but can still see.  So yes, the encounter you've set up as proof of how scouts suck was one where A) scouts would actually be very useful and B) the scout is defeating a level +5 (at least) encounter.

What I suspect is really going on here is you haven't actually played NEARLY as much as you claim, that these "+30 to hit" Warblades you speak of only happen within the specific campaign rules you've set up (if they happen at all and you're not just mouthing off because you want to sound smart), and you don't ever actually play by the game rules as written.  As such, your general claims about how the game is played are completely irrelevant.  And you've clearly never seen a player playing a scout appropriately, or you'd never have made stupid claims about splitting the party (or freaked out about Darkvision as though that weren't easily counterable).

In the end, you're just a guy who's never seen it done and assumes it can't be done as a result.  This is all Theory and Dragons, not Dungeons and Dragons.  Well, you're talking to people who've done it for real just fine, and against very intelligent enemies who actually use the resources they have to hit rather hard.  Sit back and read, you might yet learn something.

JaronK

JaronK

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Re: Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?
« Reply #409 on: February 10, 2011, 01:37:03 AM »
Sigh - here's your melee character with +30 to hit.

Cleric of Hextor/Heironeous - law devotion, war domain.
Cleric 5/Ordained Champion 5.

Decent STR.

Swift True Strike. Should get you there.

He was talking about general +30 to hit, not one shot +30 to hit.

It's obviously doable with crazy races (Half Minotaur Mineral Warrior Lolth Touched Water Orc Warblade 6 who put a 16 into strength has +23 to hit before magic items, IIRC) but he made it sound like +30 to hit in general was a baseline. 

JaronK

Kajhera

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Re: Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?
« Reply #410 on: February 10, 2011, 01:37:58 AM »
Sigh - here's your melee character with +30 to hit.

Cleric of Hextor/Heironeous - law devotion, war domain.
Cleric 5/Ordained Champion 5.

Decent STR.

Swift True Strike. Should get you there.

He was talking about general +30 to hit, not one shot +30 to hit.

It's obviously doable with crazy races (Half Minotaur Mineral Warrior Lolth Touched Water Orc Warblade 6 who put a 16 into strength has +23 to hit before magic items, IIRC) but he made it sound like +30 to hit in general was a baseline.  

JaronK

For an Ordained Champion, that's not one-shot. That's actually 5/day, which is a fair number.

Then you can start trading out higher-level slots for true strike.

Ideally you would be Cloistered and persist Divine Power as well. But I'm going minimal optimization/feats/etc here.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2011, 01:43:33 AM by Kajhera »

X-Codes

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Re: Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?
« Reply #411 on: February 10, 2011, 01:45:24 AM »
Sigh - here's your melee character with +30 to hit.

Cleric of Hextor/Heironeous - law devotion, war domain.
Cleric 5/Ordained Champion 5.

Decent STR.

Swift True Strike. Should get you there.

He was talking about general +30 to hit, not one shot +30 to hit.

It's obviously doable with crazy races (Half Minotaur Mineral Warrior Lolth Touched Water Orc Warblade 6 who put a 16 into strength has +23 to hit before magic items, IIRC) but he made it sound like +30 to hit in general was a baseline.  

JaronK

For an Ordained Champion, that's not one-shot. That's actually 5/day, which is a fair number.

Then you can start trading out higher-level slots for true strike.

Ideally you would be Cloistered and persist Divine Power as well.
Still only once per round.  Without at least 3 attacks your damage is still a joke.  Also, how are you getting swift true strike?  You don't have 5th-level spells, and you don't have NEARLY enough turn attempts for 5 DMMs each day.

Kajhera

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Re: Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?
« Reply #412 on: February 10, 2011, 01:46:38 AM »
Sigh - here's your melee character with +30 to hit.

Cleric of Hextor/Heironeous - law devotion, war domain.
Cleric 5/Ordained Champion 5.

Decent STR.

Swift True Strike. Should get you there.

He was talking about general +30 to hit, not one shot +30 to hit.

It's obviously doable with crazy races (Half Minotaur Mineral Warrior Lolth Touched Water Orc Warblade 6 who put a 16 into strength has +23 to hit before magic items, IIRC) but he made it sound like +30 to hit in general was a baseline.  

JaronK

For an Ordained Champion, that's not one-shot. That's actually 5/day, which is a fair number.

Then you can start trading out higher-level slots for true strike.

Ideally you would be Cloistered and persist Divine Power as well.
Still only once per round.  Without at least 3 attacks your damage is still a joke.  Also, how are you getting swift true strike?  You don't have 5th-level spells, and you don't have NEARLY enough turn attempts for 5 DMMs each day.

Hmm, you're absolutely right, I'm not getting swift true strike. One sec.

Okay, swift divine power instead, make it cloistered, and trade our law domain and another in and let's see how it does. It's got +10 BAB, +5>=x>=1 knowledge, +strength+3, +2 weapon, +1 weapon focus, +charisma if we smite. Can we spend our feats to get attack bonuses and what ability scores do we have?
« Last Edit: February 10, 2011, 01:51:28 AM by Kajhera »

bkdubs123

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Re: Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?
« Reply #413 on: February 10, 2011, 01:49:08 AM »
Sigh - here's your melee character with +30 to hit.

Cleric of Hextor/Heironeous - law devotion, war domain.
Cleric 5/Ordained Champion 5.

Decent STR.

Swift True Strike. Should get you there.

He also specifically said a Tier 3 character can do this with ease.

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?
« Reply #414 on: February 10, 2011, 01:50:21 AM »
Well, a kobold Fighter 1/Dragonblood SubCleric1/Dragonblood sorc1/dragonslayer could probably manage it, but that's high TO.
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Kajhera

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Re: Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?
« Reply #415 on: February 10, 2011, 01:52:43 AM »
Sigh - here's your melee character with +30 to hit.

Cleric of Hextor/Heironeous - law devotion, war domain.
Cleric 5/Ordained Champion 5.

Decent STR.

Swift True Strike. Should get you there.

He also specifically said a Tier 3 character can do this with ease.

Yea, and this doesn't work because I wanted to be a champion of the Time domain. Just figured I'd try to whip up how Tier 1 would go about it while I was up.

Other options include cloistered cleric 1 / warblade 9, buying you, say, +5 to-hit for a minute if you grab knowledge devotion, law devotion, and war domain (I forget what war devotion does - wait, that's what it does? screw that). You're probably going to want pride domain or something instead, but it's still half a point of BAB for at least +2 to hit if you don't.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2011, 02:01:03 AM by Kajhera »

X-Codes

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Re: Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?
« Reply #416 on: February 10, 2011, 02:12:00 AM »
Some manner of Psychic Warrior I'll bet.  Of course, he'd only have the PP to actually do it for one or two combats a day.

bkdubs123

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Re: Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?
« Reply #417 on: February 10, 2011, 02:12:33 AM »
What I suspect is really going on here is you haven't actually played NEARLY as much as you claim, that these "+30 to hit" Warblades you speak of only happen within the specific campaign rules you've set up (if they happen at all and you're not just mouthing off because you want to sound smart), and you don't ever actually play by the game rules as written.  As such, your general claims about how the game is played are completely irrelevant.  And you've clearly never seen a player playing a scout appropriately, or you'd never have made stupid claims about splitting the party (or freaked out about Darkvision as though that weren't easily counterable).

What I suspect is more likely is that everything that has ever been printed in any WotC published 3.5 rule and supplemental book is said to exist within the world of his games. As such, obviously the most optimal and highest Tier options rule the day, and anything else gets killed or ruled by natural selection in the earliest levels of the game. The only creatures and characters at mid-level or CR is Tier 1, maybe 2, and highly optimized. So that's what he's familiar with and going any lower than Tier 2 is just outside of his immediate knowledge. He doesn't play with Tier 3 stuff because it's not capable of being relevant in his games, so more likely than him having no actual game experience he's probably just less familiar with tricks and strategies with such classes.

But we ought to allow him to defend himself. He's made several claims, and if he can back them up he's got a possibly good case to make, but in the meantime we shouldn't be hurling insults or making conjecture about his game experience, etc.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2011, 02:22:55 AM by bkdubs123 »

Kajhera

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Re: Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?
« Reply #418 on: February 10, 2011, 02:14:22 AM »
Perhaps we should look to Incarnum for aid in our efforts? I admit to only having enough familiarity with it to beat down a mohrg with my bare hands at 5th level.

(It had odd tactics, I'm a warforged, these helped.)
« Last Edit: February 10, 2011, 02:16:13 AM by Kajhera »

X-Codes

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Re: Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?
« Reply #419 on: February 10, 2011, 02:18:49 AM »
But we ought to allow him to defend himself. He's made several claims, and if he can back them up he's got a possibly good case to make, but in the meantime we shouldn't be hurling insults or making conjecture about his game experience, etc.
Frankly, not only would Sunic not do that, but he's not really worth such considerations.  He doesn't even have the level of understanding of the T1 game that you give him credit for, IMO, given how much he employs the CR system in the examples here.

No doubt there's a method to getting +30 on attacks for 1 attack per round or some such, but it's either limited and situational or completely unsustainable.