Author Topic: Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?  (Read 100356 times)

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JaronK

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Re: Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?
« Reply #300 on: February 09, 2011, 02:37:29 AM »
JaronK:

Quit wanking to the DMG. Specific trumps General. the DMG lays out guidelines for the general campaign setting, which is Greyhawk, which has only a few less high level casters than FR. Eberron is specific. Eberron doesn't give a shit about what the DMG says.

Now shut the fuck up and quit flailing like a teeny bopper being told he's wrong.

EDIT: To be honest, I was only picking one word out of JaronK's argument and responding to it to see what it feels like to be him, but this needs addressing.

Sunic's example scenario isn't set in normal Eberron.  It's "only casters matter" land, which means there's a LOT of high level casters.  In a campaign with lower than standard magic availability (such as normal Eberron) such things wouldn't be standard.
BZZT! Fucking WRONG. Eberron has HIGHER than STANDARD magic availability, but it has LOWER than STANDARD HIGH LEVEL magic availability.

Yeah, you still haven't actually read anything here, have you?  Sunic's saying casters are all that matters.  If this is a 10th level party and casters are the only threats, then there must be far more than standard numbers of above 10th level casters.  This is rather basic.  Sunic is not playing in standard Eberron.  We're not talking about magic items here, we're talking about people who use high level magic.  So, if you're playing in Sunic's games, casters (of high level) should be plentiful.  If they're not, then we're playing in some other campaign where they're not everywhere, in which case something like Arcane Sight may not be so easy to get (but note that Arcane Sight was hardly necessary, it was simply an obvious choice based on the campaign world he's setting out, which is NOT default Eberron).

No amount of being insulting will actually change that.  Stop blathering about standard Eberron, that's not what's being discussed here.  Nor is it any other standard sort of game (not greyhawk, not FR, nothing).  It's Sunic's special campaign as he's laid it out, because Sunic believes that since he personally screws scouts over (very arbitrarily), that means scouts can't function in any game ever.  And yet even in the campaign as he's claimed it, they'd work fine.

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Re: Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?
« Reply #301 on: February 09, 2011, 02:39:17 AM »
Wasn't the item in question a continuous-use Arcane Sight item?  As in, the 3rd-level spell Arcane Sight?  That doesn't seem very high-level to me.

JaronK

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Re: Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?
« Reply #302 on: February 09, 2011, 02:41:23 AM »
Wasn't the item in question a continuous-use Arcane Sight item?  As in, the 3rd-level spell Arcane Sight?  That doesn't seem very high-level to me.

I had just said "Permanent Arcane Sight."  I hadn't actually specified how you get it.  It could either be the spell with Permanency on it (either purchased in town or cast by the Wizard that he already said was in the party) or a custom item that grants Arcane Sight.  Evidently, in a game where everything's a caster, the ability to get a core third level spell (possibly made permanent with a core 5th level spell) is completely TO (much like riding a domesticated animal).

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« Last Edit: February 09, 2011, 03:00:26 AM by JaronK »

Amadi

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Re: Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?
« Reply #303 on: February 09, 2011, 04:25:07 AM »
And Sunic, I know you don't get this part, but try reading the CR rules again.  If you optimize the monsters (yes, swapping useless feats for really strong ones counts) that raises their CR.  Ambushes also raise the CR.  READ THE CR RULES.  Your encounter was at the very least CR 15.  Possibly higher, since the Ice Devil evidently knew all about the party (but was too stupid to realize the Cleric could auto-detect him).

Okay, let's stop with the pansy encounters and actually make something worth its' salt, and something that plays intelligent. Do you know what this is.



It's a Spell Weaver. The baddest motherfucker known to man. It's a greedy evil bastard who is out to steal all magic items there is, just because that's how it rolls. While no one knows what it uses them for, we just suppose it has mercantile background and sells them to some random merchant, spending the money on ale and whores like a real man. It will then start a fight with five men and win, because it's not a pansy like your gimped factotum.

It's CR 13. "13?" you say. That's because it has been advanced in HD. It has 19 HD. Spell Weavers cast as sorcerers 2 levels over their HD, so it casts as a level 21 sorcerer. That's right, it's an epic caster. It also has Telepathy with 1000 mile range, and it has Mindsight. It has Mindsight because I say so, and because it's not stupid enough to not take it.

So, because the party is level 10, and like the most powerful humanoids in all of reality, this Weaver is just sitting there, watching them. It probably put a face on the intelligence values somehow.. Let's say by scrying on them when they were level 5, because it's not retarded. It has Int 18, which means it's more clever than anyone of you. So it constantly knows the locations of everyone in the party, and it just sits there, waiting for them to be stupid enough to split. Then one fine day when it is having its' breakfast of +5 Cereal, some stupid person in the party, the "Corpse", as he calls him, decides to leave the party and go behind a corner, scouting.

The Weaver, not being retarded enough to pass up the opportunity, of course casts Time Stop, buffs himself to the point where most things in known reality couldn't harm it, and then teleports behind the rogue. Contingency goes off. It pops Celerity for Time Stop, and kills the rogue eight times over, teleports away with the corpse. And the party probably doesn't even realize this happened. It then waits for the party to acquire another gimp, who magically has the same amount of these superpowerful magic items. It keeps on doing this until the party learns that they'd be better off killing the gimps themselves for loot, instead of waiting for something else to do it.

This is now the case in all of your campaigns past level 5. Spell Weavers with Mindsight that kill gimps. They don't even need to be part of the campaign, the MMII says that they exist, and because they are not fucking stupid, they know how to take advantage of you, even if you didn't plan on them doing so. In fact, it's because you didn't plan on them doing so.

These things are always waiting. Always watching. They sustain themselves on a diet of gimps. Gimps are the bottom of the food chain. They are so inedequate that a monster type evolved just to steal them of their precious loot, because the DM was bad enough to kill them before they could acquire it.

EDIT: It also likes dispelling permanent spells, because someone was stupid enough to spend gold on them instead of magic items it could steal.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2011, 04:27:49 AM by Amadi »

JaronK

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Re: Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?
« Reply #304 on: February 09, 2011, 04:31:04 AM »
So... what exactly was your point?  That an epic level caster could easily destroy reality?  That's easy to do with a 17th level Wizard too, you don't need the full 21 levels of Sorcerer casting.  Are you saying a level 10 Factotum is gimped because there are creatures out there that are heavily under CRed and have epic casting?  That thing could kill any other level 10 character too.  So what?  What exactly was your point there?  What kind of DM throws that sort of thing at level 10 players, other than a power tripping moron who's not going to be a DM for long after his players look at him in disdain and go play somewhere else.  I mean damn, I could start a campaign where a level 11 Wizard casts Planar Binding, starts a wish loop, gains infinite wealth and power that way, and predicts who might oppose him, then kills all the PCs the moment they make characters.  But then my players would leave because that's stupid.

Anyone who throws a spellweaver like that at the party is an absolute idiot of a DM.

JaronK
« Last Edit: February 09, 2011, 04:35:13 AM by JaronK »

Amadi

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Re: Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?
« Reply #305 on: February 09, 2011, 04:35:16 AM »
That the Factotum is only one stupid enough to split the party on intention, and therefore deserves the horrible fate. Also, that Ice Devil with Mindsight is not +5 CR just because it isn't stupid enough to not hide, and that if you wanted to whine about optimized monsters, you might actually pick something that deserves a higher CR.

JaronK

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Re: Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?
« Reply #306 on: February 09, 2011, 04:41:16 AM »
That the Factotum is only one stupid enough to split the party on intention, and therefore deserves the horrible fate.

He didn't split the party.  That's Sunic's version, because he doesn't know how to play scouts.  Real scouts don't split the party, they stay within the engagement range of the party while providing intel.  Throwing a 21st level Sorcerer at a 10th level party as a way of saying "nya nya, I'm on a power trip" just makes you an idiot.

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Also, that Ice Devil with Mindsight is not +5 CR just because it isn't stupid enough to not hide,

But it is +1 CR for having far better feats (Mindsight is a lot stronger than anything else it had) and ambushes do raise the CR as well.  How much depends on the exact situation.  Though when I realized the ambush was actually extremely stupid I realized the +5 was far too much.  +1 at most, really, for giving the monster far more information than it should by rights have.

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and that if you wanted to whine about optimized monsters, you might actually pick something that deserves a higher CR.

I'm just following the CR rules here.  Not my fault if you don't like that.  The given CR is for the standard monster.  You have to adjust it up and down accordingly if you change the base monster.  For example, if you use your advanced spellweaver thing as anything less than CR 21 you clearly messed up.  The fact that you think that thing is CR 13 indicates you messed up rather horribly.  The fact that it can instantly kill any member of the party (Factotum, Rogue, Wizard, Cleric, whatever) at level 10 with no hope of survival should tell you that fact.  The base CR rules are a guideline, but you as a DM have to figure out the actual difficulty of the encounter and adjust accordingly.  Give it feats optimized against the party?  Increase the CR.  It's actually very weak to what the party is strong at?  Lower the CR.  It has special knowledge that makes it a bigger threat to the party?  Increase the CR.  It's got epic level casting?  INCREASE THE FREAKING CR.

I mean come on man, you just made what you thought was a CR 13 that casts as a 21st level Sorcerer.  That should tell you right there that you don't know what you're talking about.  Though interestingly enough, if you follow what Lords of Madness (the book Mindsight is from) says about how undead are undetectable to psychic detection, that Factotum is one of the few things that DOESN'T get auto-ganked by your silly little Spellweaver.  The Wizards and Clerics and such (but not the undead Cleric that Sunic said was in the party) are the ones who get instant killed.  Not really sure how the spellweaver even knew to go after the Factotum though (or why it did, the Wizard was the bigger threat).  All it knew is position, intelligence, and type.  Then again, I suppose a critter like that would just have cast Genesis anyway and messed with time traits for real ultimate power, and then not bothered with anything under level 15.  After all, why would it?

JaronK
« Last Edit: February 09, 2011, 04:44:23 AM by JaronK »

veekie

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Re: Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?
« Reply #307 on: February 09, 2011, 04:44:20 AM »
The questionable point is this.

Stealth does not require that the party 'split'.
Most parties have engagement ranges in the 100-500ft range, which is sufficient to enhance stealth without leaving him bereft of support(except by the fighter maybe).
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JaronK

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Re: Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?
« Reply #308 on: February 09, 2011, 04:51:11 AM »
Indeed, no one's every claimed that you "split the party," at least no one who's talked about how scouting works.  You stay within the range of the party, which depending on level can be anywhere from 400 feet to 50 feet away.  Obviously if your party is a bunch of really short range types (Full attack based melee types who can't pounce and aren't mounted, Dread Necromancers, precision damage based full attackers that aren't mounted... is there anything else?) then you have to stay much closer, but most character types are just fine out past 100 feet (most casters have solid spells at that range, such as Glitterdust.  Archers almost certainly have 100-200 feet+ as their range increment.  Most melees are going to be either mounted or have decent movement boosting items/spells ASAP so they can contribute).

So no, there's no splitting of the party, there never was.  That's just people who don't know how to scout talking about weaknesses that don't exist, much like people complaining that Wizards suck because of Antimagic fields or that Beguiler suck because of mindless constructs.  You only make such complaints if you don't know what you're talking about.

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Re: Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?
« Reply #309 on: February 09, 2011, 05:50:10 AM »
I wasn't planning on posting in here again, but I'm trying to have an actual conversation so that I, and maybe others, can get some real insight here. Sunic, you're an asshole, I'm pretty confident you don't mind me saying so, but I respect your knowledge and experience in the field of optimization, so even though I think you've said some pretty nonsensical stuff in this thread I still want to attempt something close to a civil discourse here.

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Learn to play? Seriously, you're making some gimpy beatstick with a +20 to hit, or less, a number that would be barely acceptable if all of his attacks were touch attacks, you're assuming a Con of TWELVE on anyone, especially a beatstick. He doesn't fail because he's a Warblade. He fails because he's a garbage build, inferior to a fucking ANIMAL COMPANION.

Seriously. Here's a random animal companion's auto attack sequence:

Pounce, so reliable full attacks.

+19/+19/+19/+14/+18/+18 for 1d8+12/1d8+12/1d8+12/2d6+7/1d8+7/1d8+7. Those numbers do not include charge bonuses.

I expect gimps like Fighters to get CAPed by an Animal Companion, but a fucking Warblade should be doing a lot better.

You say my build was gimpy, after I asked a couple of times what I was doing wrong, and your response is "learn to play." Which is why I assume your post was deleted, and why I expect this post will be deleted as I am quoting a deleted thread, but I digress. The fact is, I didn't even build the Warblade, I just spent his wealth, used the standard point buy in what seemed to be the most effective way, and arrived at a list of, apparently gimpy, numbers.

If you are saying that there's something wrong with my math and that my use of those resources is elementary at best, please, explain to me how the Warblade is supposed to get beyond +20 to his attack rolls, among other tasty bonuses, using those same resources (or other resources that I am not even aware of). I didn't "assume" he had a Con of 12, I simply bought what he could afford. Remember, when I actually assumed the ability scores, before I did the math, I assumed he'd have Con 20, but after doing the math he couldn't actually afford it. I'm not trying to be snarky here, there's obviously something I'm missing and I'm looking for insight.

On the other hand, if you are just saying that the Warblade isn't a real class and it can't get what you would consider proper numbers, that it is a gimp no matter what, like I think you consider the Factotum, then okay, I just want to get the story straight. You might be saying that a Human Warblade 10 with some variation of the Lockdown build set is a gimp. Should I assume that you mean that any melee type character less than a Feral Mineral Warrior Dragonborn Incarnate Warforged Warblade to be a gimp? I'm just asking.

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Trivializing SR is easy, but not for the lower tier casters. It does have high saves though, and high AC, and high touch AC.

But I'm talking about the lower tier casters. Tier 3 is precisely what I'm talking about. What can a Dread Necromancer and a Beguiler do to reliably bust through SR 25 AND maintain save DCs of 25+?

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And lol? Really optimized numbers? There are any number of things that Ice Devil can do, besides take Mindsight that would qualify it as really optimized.

I'm considering a CR 13 ambush vs a level 10 party with basic numbers like AC, saves, Hide check all well off the RNG that the PCs are playing to be really optimized, yes. I am well aware that there is much more that the Ice Devil could do to make him even more optimized. The point is not about whether the encounter could be even more of a WTFpwning. The point is that you are attempting to use this encounter to claim that Scout characters fail and that said encounter would have been dangerous, life-threatening to be honest, to a Tier 3 party without any modification, optimization, or ambush necessary, and further you are then ramping the alert level of that encounter up to TPK status. I believe you should address this point with more than a, "learn to play D&D" response.

I also have a couple other points, that I don't think anyone's yet brought up, and I believe they merit some discussion:

1) Why is it assumed that anytime a Scout character moves ahead of the party there is a ambush set up? Further, why is it assumed that there is even a monster, or guards, or creatures whatsoever? The Scout can just as easily get the lay of the land, scope out entrances and exits, check out potential traps, or potential places for the party to set up traps/ambushes.

2) Sunic, you mentioned at some point, god knows I'm too lazy to look for the specific page and post, you mentioned that the "scouts are cool" crowd is like the "Monk PWN" crowd in that both characters fail for the same reasons, except that I must disagree with you here. The Monk fails because the class itself has no level appropriate class features or encounter contributions to offer a party or game. A Scout may invest a feat or two for their role, and they invest some of their many skill points, but at the end of the day they still have class features, which are often pretty awesome. A Rogue has sneak attack, a Factotum has spells, a Warlock has his invocations. They can still contribute meaningfully to encounters when they aren't scouting.

Amadi

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Re: Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?
« Reply #310 on: February 09, 2011, 06:18:31 AM »
That the Factotum is only one stupid enough to split the party on intention, and therefore deserves the horrible fate.

He didn't split the party.  That's Sunic's version, because he doesn't know how to play scouts.  Real scouts don't split the party, they stay within the engagement range of the party while providing intel.  Throwing a 21st level Sorcerer at a 10th level party as a way of saying "nya nya, I'm on a power trip" just makes you an idiot.

He did split the party. He has to stay away from line of sight from the party at some point. Assume you are indoors, or in a cave, or anything, really. Wizard needs line of effect to get to the rogue.

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Also, that Ice Devil with Mindsight is not +5 CR just because it isn't stupid enough to not hide,

But it is +1 CR for having far better feats (Mindsight is a lot stronger than anything else it had) and ambushes do raise the CR as well.  How much depends on the exact situation.  Though when I realized the ambush was actually extremely stupid I realized the +5 was far too much.  +1 at most, really, for giving the monster far more information than it should by rights have.
Easily.

One CR is worth much, much more than one character level. An encounter of correct CR should be a fair fight to a party of 4 encounter-appropriate guys. CR of +2 means 2 times the strength, basically. So if a fighter 6 was CR 6, fighter 12 should be CR 8. Fighter 24 would be CR 10, although there is an exponential effect at going to Epic, so it should probably be counted.

Do you really think that an Ice Devil who is hiding and has mindsight is stronger than two Ice Devils? Because you really make it seem like it that is the case.

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and that if you wanted to whine about optimized monsters, you might actually pick something that deserves a higher CR.

I'm just following the CR rules here.  Not my fault if you don't like that.  The given CR is for the standard monster.  You have to adjust it up and down accordingly if you change the base monster.  For example, if you use your advanced spellweaver thing as anything less than CR 21 you clearly messed up.  The fact that you think that thing is CR 13 indicates you messed up rather horribly.  The fact that it can instantly kill any member of the party (Factotum, Rogue, Wizard, Cleric, whatever) at level 10 with no hope of survival should tell you that fact.  The base CR rules are a guideline, but you as a DM have to figure out the actual difficulty of the encounter and adjust accordingly.  Give it feats optimized against the party?  Increase the CR.  It's actually very weak to what the party is strong at?  Lower the CR.  It has special knowledge that makes it a bigger threat to the party?  Increase the CR.  It's got epic level casting?  INCREASE THE FREAKING CR.

That's not in the rules. It reads clearly: Increasing HD by 3 increases CR by 1, for Monstrous Humanoids. Spell Weaver is a monstrous humanoid. You are using rule 0 based on your preference. Using my previous analogy, that thing is about as strong as 3 spell weavers of lower level, perhaps slightly more, maybe 4. Give it CR 14.

Of course, looking at DMG, it seems like player characters are supposed to die all the fucking time. 5% of encounters should be of CR of the team +5 or more. That is like, 6 times stronger than the party at minimum. I'm just using DMG here, not my fault if you don't like that. 5% of the encounters should kill you if you don't run, and running is practically impossible in D&D, as established. 15% of encounters should have a chance to kill someone. "Might very well kill one player.". That's like 50% chance, so that's 7.5% of encounters that kill someone. So, 25% of the party dies in 7.5% of encounters. It then takes four such encounters to kill all of the party. 7.5 in hundred goes to 2.5. That's like 53 encounters to kill the party, assuming that the overpowering monsters are too incompetent to chase the party.

ECL 6 is the highest you can really expect to get with this, reasonably.

Again, following the CR Rules, Kobold Expert 1 / Sorcerer 7 is an appropriate encounter for a party of level 1, 5% of the time.

Not following the CR Rules, but letting the PCs do anything they want with no retribution and only giving them encounters they should be able to beat, ends up with a world like Forgotten Realms where every pansy and their mother can reach epic levels by gardening. Epic level characters should be rare, infinitely tougher than their average counterparts and paragons amongst their kind. The whole setting will fall apart under ridiculousness when adventuring isn't dangerous busines.

Also, the CR rules assume a party of four, with 3d6 or _nonelite_ array. Party with a reasonable point buy should be faced with stuff of CR+1, maybe even +2. Flaws also add to this. Most of the stuff that benefits them adds to this, really. And it assumes that DM doesn't allow them to start with scrolls of every book known to man, but limits their choices, and magic items.

A party, even when fucked up by the DM in a royal fashion like the DMG suggests the DM should do, should still meet stuff like that Ice Devil every now and then.

I mean come on man, you just made what you thought was a CR 13 that casts as a 21st level Sorcerer.  That should tell you right there that you don't know what you're talking about.  Though interestingly enough, if you follow what Lords of Madness (the book Mindsight is from) says about how undead are undetectable to psychic detection, that Factotum is one of the few things that DOESN'T get auto-ganked by your silly little Spellweaver.  The Wizards and Clerics and such (but not the undead Cleric that Sunic said was in the party) are the ones who get instant killed.  Not really sure how the spellweaver even knew to go after the Factotum though (or why it did, the Wizard was the bigger threat).  All it knew is position, intelligence, and type.  Then again, I suppose a critter like that would just have cast Genesis anyway and messed with time traits for real ultimate power, and then not bothered with anything under level 15.  After all, why would it?

JaronK

Actually, that is fluff, not RAW. You can argue for RAI all you want, but then I bring into the equation the fact that you are also supposed to die all the fucking time. There is no RAW defense against Mindsight, as has already been established in this thread.

The spellweaver knew to go to the chameleon because it robbed a magic item store and dominated the owner to tell the names of anyone who bought anything in past year.

D&D is not a game of "LOL GUYS I MAKE THE MOST EPIC MARY SUE EVER MY FATHER'S SOUL IS BOUND TO MY KATANA AND I'M IN LOVE WITH NARUTO LOL!". It's a game form of natural evolution, as in, gimps die all the time and that's how it should be. Getting to high level is the goal, and if you die, it is not achieved. Gimps die, therefore not achieving this.

@bkdubs123: There might not be an ambush set up all the time. The fact is that it will come up at least a dozen times on a gimps lifetime means that he will die at some point. Dying at some point, of course, means you still die. Not to mention that an encounter of CR of their level +5 will probably spot him and one-round him every time. Even the puzzle monsters can do this. About traps? Some of the CR 3 traps have search DC 27. A level 3 rogue with 6 ranks in search has like, +10 search, and that is given a fair point buy. Maybe +12 with tool. He finds the trap 30% of the time, other time he checks it. With his face. Or then he can take 20, at which point if he's exploring a dungeon or a castle, some of the inhabitants probably stumble on him by accident, because taking 20 with search takes roughly twenty years of your life.

Seriously: Mechanical trap, search DC 28, Disable Device DC 15, Reflex DC 24, 5d6 damage. CR 2.

Now assume a rogue 3, who got off with the elite array, which is the average representation of 4d6 drop lowest. Say he has the second highest in con and highest in dex, third highest in Int? +1 Int, 6 Ranks. +7 Search. Autofail. Reflex DC 24. He has +5 reflex saves, with evasion. 19+ succeeds, so he has 10% chance of evading out of it. He has 6+2d6+6 HP, for 12+2d6, averaging at 19. 5d6 won't kill him on average, sure, as it only averages to 17.5 damage. It still has real chances of knocking him unconscious, though. 35.973% chance to drop him to 0, to be exact. And that is counting in the 10% chance he makes the save. And that trap was CR 1 lower than the rogues EL. 2nd level rogue would only have 13.5 health on average, and would be down to 0 at 76.32% probability, again counting the chance he makes the save. 5.292% chance to die outright, if you wondered.

veekie

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Re: Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?
« Reply #311 on: February 09, 2011, 06:33:38 AM »
^^
Valid points, and a good case for why the numbers are against the scout.
That said, line of sight/line of effect is much easier to arrange when overground. Just ramp up elevation(unless you have money to burn, then Ring Gates might be nicer). Indoor, the sneak should just be one room ahead, any further is asking for it.

Out of curiosity, what proportion of the given sample traps regularly defeats a rogue taking 10 searching?
What proportion of published monsters/encounters possess such senses? Many DMs out there don't have time to do more than shuffle a few values around on a published monster, what with having a life and somewhat unpredictable players
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Dictum Mortuum

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Re: Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?
« Reply #312 on: February 09, 2011, 06:37:22 AM »
Amadi, the slightly tweaked Ice Devil was a valid argument. However, even though you make your point, you're basically saying that STEALTH SUCKS BECAUSE SORCERER 21 AT CR 1X .

//edit: and I wouldn't be surprised if someone at this point posts STEALTH PUN PUN AT CL 3 ROAR
« Last Edit: February 09, 2011, 06:39:23 AM by Dictum Mortuum »
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Amadi

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Re: Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?
« Reply #313 on: February 09, 2011, 06:53:13 AM »
CR 1 traps, search DCs: 20, 24, 20, 19, 14, 20, 22, 20, 22, 20, 21, 20, 20, 22

Now, the level 1 rogue has like, +5 search, so he only finds Fusillade of Darts taking 10. The average search DC is 20.28571429. Rogue finds under 25% of the traps. A bit more with MW tool, going to 40%. Still, he's falling for most of them. Even being really really generous and giving him 18 Int which, of course, is more than what is assumed when the traps are balanced.. Well, he still fails more than half of the time, and doesn't even find 50% of the traps taking 10.

Supposed that he is a race with +2 Int, starts with 20 due to race, maxes Search and then takes 10, he actually finds most of them with 10, though. He'd be only facechecking 36.36% of them! That is, of course, still not a great number, but starts to get reasonable when not all of them hit him.

@DM: I was mostly responding to JaronK's whine about the Ice Devil not being an appropriate encounter and being like CR gazillion. It's 14 at most, and an ECL 10 party with 5 members and say, 32 PB, is probably going to face CR 12 all the time. Flaws add to this number, and so on. I don't know exactly what the size/rules of Sunic's group is, but that does, to me, seem like a very reasonable encounter. The Spell Weaver not so much. And even then, the Spell Weaver is probably CR 18 or less, since it doesn't actually get epic spells due to limited HD.

veekie

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Re: Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?
« Reply #314 on: February 09, 2011, 07:14:34 AM »
Yeah, I wouldn't go into specific encounters(they don't prove that much on a campaign level) but the trap search DCs apparently assume 20 starting int, maxed ranks AND the skill focus feat. That is systematically bad for the rogue, even if he makes the save after.
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"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

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JaronK

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Re: Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?
« Reply #315 on: February 09, 2011, 07:19:45 AM »
He did split the party. He has to stay away from line of sight from the party at some point. Assume you are indoors, or in a cave, or anything, really. Wizard needs line of effect to get to the rogue.

It's hardly splitting the party to go around the corner.  If the party can take a move action to get into position and attack whatever's the threat as a standard action, and all members of the party can communicate with each other, the party is hardly split.  This is especially true when the scout is gaining you surprise rounds you otherwise wouldn't have had (which is normal).  If anything, staying together in a tiny pack when going around corners, trying to constantly maintain perfect line of effect, is a foolish plan.  It means if something does get the drop on you (likely when you're not scouting) AoE effects can really ruin your day.  Imagine a level 3-5 party getting hit by Glitterdust or Web, or a mid level party getting nailed by Evard's Tentacles/Solid Fog/Cloudkill in the surprise round.  That's a serious liability.  Having a party that's a bit more apart (I'm talking 10-15 feet between each person here, not huge distances) minimizes that liability.  Remember, not all characters operate at the same ranges.  Most archers are quite comfortable shooting from 150 feet back or more (there's a basic magic item that gives Far Shot and a Compound Longbow already has a 110ft range increment) and don't want to be in close, while most melees are only effective when they're within charge range (usually 40-60 feet at low levels, 100feet or more at high levels) and want to close quickly.  As such, the party shouldn't be in a tight bunch... their positioning should be dictated by where they actually want to be when the fight starts.  Obviously some thought has to be paid towards what happens if they're attacked from behind,  but if they're clearing the place out that's less likely.

Either way, the scout is not truly splitting the party, any more than an archer is splitting the party by hanging back while the charger wades in.  The scout's just in front while traveling, far enough forward that the party is unlikely to be randomly detected before the scout can find the threat, but not so much so that he's outside of the engagement range of the party.

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So, someone scried on the party or something, and then told the ice devil to ambush them or it'd kill the ice devil himself. This is fairly rational from devils, allright, and not definitely "far more information than it should by rights have."

Considering the devil must have known the exact route the party was going to take (Sunic was talking about a pretty open terrain area, so this wasn't some obvious bottleneck) and evidently knew enough to identify the stealther based on type and int score alone, the devil knew quite a bit indeed.  And someone else scrying to provide extra information to the devil is adding an opponent, though obviously it's not as much as adding a full opponent.

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Easily.

Except Mindsight was the only thing this Devil had that made it not completely and totally helpless.  It's a VERY powerful feat.  You just made it completely and totally immune to getting snuck up on, EVER (at least if you're playing by the ruling that Mindsight is unstoppable, which you are).  It's like swapping the Terrasque's toughness feats for the Shock Trooper line.  It's a huge power up.  It serious diminishes the monster's vulnerability to getting bypassed or ambushed, in fact it makes it almost impossible for anyone to detect him without being detected in turn (or it would if the stupid thing had buried itself just a foot deeper).  Mindsight is a VERY significant ability, far better than any of the other feats it originally had.  If it didn't have that feat, the scout in this scenario could have not only seen it, it could have done so at absolutely no risk.

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One CR is worth much, much more than one character level. An encounter of correct CR should be a fair fight to a party of 4 encounter-appropriate guys. CR of +2 means 2 times the strength, basically. So if a fighter 6 was CR 6, fighter 12 should be CR 8. Fighter 24 would be CR 10, although there is an exponential effect at going to Epic, so it should probably be counted.

I'm sorry, but this is just not how the rules for CR work.  Adding a character level that fits with how the creature normally fights gives +1 CR to that creature.  That's just the rules.  You may want this as a house rule (though it wouldn't work at all for full casters... Wizard 18ish as a CR 9?  HELL NO), but that's not how the rules actually work.  At all.

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Do you really think that an Ice Devil who is hiding and has mindsight is stronger than two Ice Devils? Because you really make it seem like it that is the case.

In game where some enemies can one turn TKO a player (which Sunic has been claiming)?  A single creature who has enough information to set up an ambush and has abilities set up that make it far superior at ambushing is ABSOLUTELY as strong as (and perhaps stronger than) two such creatures.  Consider the following scenario: the party is moving along and sees in the distance two Half Dragon Orc Frenzied Berserkers.  Both sides roll initiative.  The Berserkers start running at the party.  The Beguiler (or Wizard, or Factotum, or Sorcerer... whatever) drops a grease which nuetralizes both of them.  The party proceeds to tear the two FBs apart.  Now scenario two... it's just one Frenzied Berserker, but he's a Skulk and knows the party is coming, so he's taken 20 to hide in the underbrush off the side of the road.  The party gets within the necessary charge range and in the ensuing surprise round the Skulk FB bursts out and insta-gibs the Beguiler/Wizard/Factotum/Sorcerer/whatever who would most easily counter him.  If he wins initiative, he kills another party member, otherwise the party has a decent shot of taking him down (assuming someone else had a spell that would stop him from charging again).  Which was harder?  That second encounter was a death sentence for almost any party (if they lacked an autodetect ability with an over 60' range, they had little chance of avoiding that surprise round), while the first was only dangerous if the party lacked crowd control.

So yes, in this game, giving a monster the knowledge and abilities to ambush the party is at least as strong as giving them an equal buddy to help out.

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That's not in the rules. It reads clearly: Increasing HD by 3 increases CR by 1, for Monstrous Humanoids. Spell Weaver is a monstrous humanoid. You are using rule 0 based on your preference. Using my previous analogy, that thing is about as strong as 3 spell weavers of lower level, perhaps slightly more, maybe 4. Give it CR 14.

DMG 39.  "Modifying Xp Awards and Encounter Levels.  An orc warband that attacks the PCs by flying over them on primitive hang gliders and dropping large rocks is not the same encounter as one in which the orcs just charge in with spears.  Sometimes, the circumstances give the characters' opponents a distinct advantage.  Other times, the PCs have an advantage.  Adjust the Xp award and the EL depending on how greatly the circumstances change the encounter's difficulty."

It then goes on to say that an encounter which is "Significantly more difficult" is EL +1, and one which is "Twice as difficult" is El +2.  Considering our Ice Devil couldn't have even seen the scout without Mindsight and almost certainly would have been dropped from a distance trivially if it wasn't ambushing (in the actual game, since it was stupid enough to have its head up it was spotted by the Cleric before it could ambush and was instantly ganked, so this has been proven true), clearly the Mindsight/Ambush scenario makes this guy at least twice as hard as he otherwise would have been.  That's a +2.

In the case of your epic casting Spellweaver, just remember that increasing an associated class level increases the CR by 1 (MM 294), so if you'd added Sorcerer levels you'd be adding 1 CR per level.  In the case of the Spellweaver, adding HD is just like adding Sorcerer levels.  Also, the MM even states that adding too many HD will screw the CR calculations up.

And yes, some party members are expected to die sometimes.  The game is supposed to be a challenge, and there's a reason spells like Raise Dead exist.  Check out some of the earlier campaigns for examples of Gygaxian play... people died all the time.  But that doesn't mean you're supposed to send epic level Sorcerers after level 10 parties and randomly gank members of that party without any hope.

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Again, following the CR Rules, Kobold Expert 1 / Sorcerer 7 is an appropriate encounter for a party of level 1, 5% of the time.

Sorcerer 7 alone is CR 7.

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Not following the CR Rules, but letting the PCs do anything they want with no retribution and only giving them encounters they should be able to beat, ends up with a world like Forgotten Realms where every pansy and their mother can reach epic levels by gardening. Epic level characters should be rare, infinitely tougher than their average counterparts and paragons amongst their kind. The whole setting will fall apart under ridiculousness when adventuring isn't dangerous busines.

I never claimed you should do that, in fact I find such games boring.  However, remember what this argument is about.  Sunic is claiming that being a scout will ALWAYS result in you being a corpse, and that scouting is not viable at all.  His evidence was a pair of encounters, both of which a decent scout could trivially help with (Lifesight and Mindsight both detected everything easily), and in the one encounter where we saw details it turned out to be at least CR 15 for a level 10 character, indicating that this Ice Devil scenario is the upper bound of expected difficulty... and it was still easy for the scout to deal with (and would have been very dangerous without the scout, had not the Ice Devil been really stupid).

Meanwhile, I am saying that scouting is a viable party role (it shouldn't be the only thing a character does of course, which is why I made clear that you don't need to spend tons of resources on it) and that while there's some danger, it's really not that dangerous compared to any other given party role.  Yes, sometimes a monster might detect you (though that should be rare, and a good scout will see that something's up) but you should have ablative defenses (like Moment of Perfect Mind, Counter Charge, and similar) to let you survive that first round while your party takes out the attacker.  You're not a guaranteed instant corpse.

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Also, the CR rules assume a party of four, with 3d6 or _nonelite_ array. Party with a reasonable point buy should be faced with stuff of CR+1, maybe even +2. Flaws also add to this. Most of the stuff that benefits them adds to this, really. And it assumes that DM doesn't allow them to start with scrolls of every book known to man, but limits their choices, and magic items.

Adding to this, the game was originally written expecting healbot Clerics, blaster Wizards/Sorcerers, and Druids who don't Wild Shape in combat.  Basically, all T5 play.  Yeah, it was a deadly game.  Then again, it also assumes the DM cheats in favor of the players relatively regularly.  Playing a T3 game where the DM actually follows the rules, with mostly random magic items and the occasional ability to shop for gear you needed, is basically playing close to how things were intended.

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A party, even when fucked up by the DM in a royal fashion like the DMG suggests the DM should do, should still meet stuff like that Ice Devil every now and then.

Absolutely.  No disagreement here.  The Ice Devil is what the DMG would call a hard encounter.  They shouldn't all be like this, but you should have a few once in a while.  I've never said you shouldn't have encounters like this, I'm saying that encounters like this aren't EVERY encounter and that even something like this should be handlable, and that using this sort of encounter as proof that scouts aren't viable is ridiculous.  It's stacked against the scout and yet a good scout can still handle this easily, so it really fails to back up the claim that scouts are just corpses in waiting.

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Actually, that is fluff, not RAW. You can argue for RAI all you want, but then I bring into the equation the fact that you are also supposed to die all the fucking time. There is no RAW defense against Mindsight, as has already been established in this thread.

Which is why I put in what you should do in both cases.  If Mindsight is unblockable, then it's pretty much necessary for any scout (it's easy for a Beguiler, Unseen Seer, Arcane Trickster, Factotum, or Warlock to get, via a Mindbender dip.  It's actually much harder for T1 classes to get because of the skill requirements for Mindbender, and it's virtually impossible to get in any useful way for Rogues, Scouts, and Ninjas, unfortunately).  If it's blockable, then being undead is critical and you should probably take it anyway if you can.  Neither way makes scouts obsolete.

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The spellweaver knew to go to the chameleon because it robbed a magic item store and dominated the owner to tell the names of anyone who bought anything in past year.

This is still throwing an epic spellcaster at a level 10 party, and that's just stupid.  Sure, there's epic casters who really should do exactly that (I'm sure developing an epic spell that finds out who will ever be a threat to you is quite doable) but nobody plays that way because it's just silly.  Who wants to play a D&D game where at the first moment of finishing character sheets your DM just says "well, you would have won, so you were killed as babies.  The end."?  Though really, this sort of thing is exactly why my characters who have disguise always disguise themselves as someone else when in town.  No sense leaving a train unnecessarily, and it's shockingly easy to have unbeatable (practically) disguises.  Normally it's to throw off CR appropriate Assassins, not crazed paranoid epic Sorcerers, but whatever.

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D&D is not a game of "LOL GUYS I MAKE THE MOST EPIC MARY SUE EVER MY FATHER'S SOUL IS BOUND TO MY KATANA AND I'M IN LOVE WITH NARUTO LOL!".

This from a guy whose big argument is "I can make a level 21 Sorcerer to kill you when you're level 10 and I'm the DM" eh?  Hi Mr. Pot.

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It's a game form of natural evolution, as in, gimps die all the time and that's how it should be. Getting to high level is the goal, and if you die, it is not achieved. Gimps die, therefore not achieving this.

You still haven't shown how anything's a gimp.  If anything, your crazy paranoid Sorcerer guy should be killing the serious threats (all T1 casters in the world), not the T3s and below who aren't major threats.  Your argument here is nonsensical, and the conclusion sucks: that everyone has to play a T1 caster with world shattering power or go home.  I hate to break it to you, but there's a good reason most fantasy stories don't have T1 level protagonists.  They're boring as heck to play if you actually use them at full power.  I had a DM ask me to make the strongest character I could once.  I threw together a Binder 1/Archivist 3/Divine Adaptation Anima Mage 10/Tenebrous Apostate 5/Tainted Sorcerer 1, figured out that I could easily have endless wealth and power without even leaving the starting town, and was bored before I even played him (which is why I instantly quit that game).

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Seriously: Mechanical trap, search DC 28, Disable Device DC 15, Reflex DC 24, 5d6 damage. CR 2.

Now assume a rogue 3, who got off with the elite array, which is the average representation of 4d6 drop lowest. Say he has the second highest in con and highest in dex, third highest in Int? +1 Int, 6 Ranks. +7 Search. Autofail. Reflex DC 24. He has +5 reflex saves, with evasion. 19+ succeeds, so he has 10% chance of evading out of it. He has 6+2d6+6 HP, for 12+2d6, averaging at 19. 5d6 won't kill him on average, sure, as it only averages to 17.5 damage. It still has real chances of knocking him unconscious, though. 35.973% chance to drop him to 0, to be exact. And that is counting in the 10% chance he makes the save. And that trap was CR 1 lower than the rogues EL. 2nd level rogue would only have 13.5 health on average, and would be down to 0 at 76.32% probability, again counting the chance he makes the save. 5.292% chance to die outright, if you wondered.

And without that Rogue, it's whoever else was in front who dies, so what's your point here?  You seem to be trying to claim that anyone who's not a T1 caster is a "gimp" and doomed to die, but a Wizard would be just as screwed here (a Crusader or Barbarian or something might stand a chance, are you trying to say that Wizards are gimps and Crusaders and Barbarians are the only ones that aren't?).

By the way, an Elite Array Necropolitan Whispergnome (the kind of character I bring to games that are that deadly, as opposed to more standard games where I'm likely to bring a rather more lively halfling, or perhaps a breathing Whispergnome) at level 3, who bothered to have a descecrated evil alter when he was turned, has 31 hit points at level 3.  He'll just take that hit and look quite annoyed about the whole thing, but he won't die or go unconscious (at least it's very unlikely).  With Int 15, Dex 16 (appropriate for a Factotum), and 6 ranks he's got a +8 to search... slight chance of seeing the thing!  But yes, some of the traps are kinda underconned.  And as a note I'm aware that you rarely go into Necropolitan that early.  You can afford it at that point but it's a lot of money for that level, and I tend to wait until a major Metropolis comes along in hopes of getting the services of a UA Necromancer or Dread Necromancer 8 to help with the procedure as it makes you a lot tougher.

Either way, I fail to see how either of your examples proves that scouts are "gimps."  The first one just through an epic caster at level 10 party, which would kill any class type easily and would, it seems to me, more likely target the bigger threats (the Wizard could kill him trivially easily if he ever hit level 17, for example).  And the trap example would kill a Wizard or Sorcerer easier than a Rogue, so that's not really relevant here either.  What exactly are you trying to say?

And to be clear, nobody's arguing that scout types (especially Factotums or Rogues) are stronger than Wizards or Clerics in general.  Only that scouting is a useful thing to do for a party, that in many ways it's more useful than just trying to spam divinations all the time (which is what Sunic was claiming worked better), and that it's quite possible to do it without being at such great risk that you're guaranteed (or even more likely than other roles) to die.

Certainly, Traps become easier to deal with at higher levels when you actually have the skills dedicated to deal with it... once you have things like Eyes of the Eagle and Admiral's Bicorn and such to get your skills appropriately high (and if you are playing a game where the DM keeps chucking such traps at you, there's a feat that lets you use dex for Search and Disable Device.  With Brains over Brawn you get Int + Dex.  That helps).  But Factotums are BETTER at dealing with it than Wizards, and you seemed to be trying to say that everyone should be a Wizard, so what are you going for here?  I mean, you could be saying that anyone in front will die so you should just send something disposable like a reserve feat created minion, but if the trap is actually an alarm trap instead of a damage trap that's a terrible plan.  So what is it you're going for?

JaronK
« Last Edit: February 09, 2011, 07:50:20 AM by JaronK »

Amadi

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Re: Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?
« Reply #316 on: February 09, 2011, 08:23:26 AM »
Alternatively, a elves with 4 Ranks have +6 before Int. Gray Elves would be elves, too, so those work.

Rogues also start with, on average, 125 gold. Assume the following starting gear, for an Elf Rogue. Make it a Gray Elf too.

Rapier: 20 gold.
Leather Armor: 10 gold.
Backpack: 2 gold.
Thieve's Tools: 30 gold.
MW tool of Search: 50 gold.

102 gold already. Not enough to buy a ranged weapon left. Dropping the armor would give you money for Shortbow.

Now, let's be really generous, and assume that this guy has say, 32PB. 16 Int, 16 Dex, 10 Str, Con 16, Wis 8, Cha 8. Before racials, after it would be 18 Int, 18 Dex, 8 Str, 14 Con, 8 Wis, 8 Cha. This man really won the lottery at birth. At level 1, he has +12 Search, so he can take 10 and find just about any trap. Now, the question is if he can disable them.. He has +8 Disable Device. Here are the disable DCs of level 1 traps..

20, 20, 23, 19, 20, 18, 20, 20, 15, 22, 20, 20, 20, 22

So, most of the time he actually fails. What's more, since the check is done in secret, he doesn't even know that he failed, and will walk to the trap to die. He pretty much needs Skill Focus: Disable Device to do his job here, and even then there are traps he cannot, on average, disarm.

Quote from: JaronK
Sorcerer 7 alone is CR 7.

Kobolds with levels in NPC classes have their CR reduced by 3. It never states that they need to have levels ONLY in NPC classes. That thing is CR 5.

Quote from: JaronK
Absolutely.  No disagreement here.  The Ice Devil is what the DMG would call a hard encounter.  They shouldn't all be like this, but you should have a few once in a while.  I've never said you shouldn't have encounters like this, I'm saying that encounters like this aren't EVERY encounter and that even something like this should be handlable, and that using this sort of encounter as proof that scouts aren't viable is ridiculous.  It's stacked against the scout and yet a good scout can still handle this easily, so it really fails to back up the claim that scouts are just corpses in waiting.

It doesn't have to be every encounter. It just has to be one every now and then to kill the scout. Who is then, of course, dead.

Also, it's not like the devil would've been useless without the mindsight. Let's just assume it's not stupid, and doesn't try to failhide if it cannot see a wall that's thrown in front of it. Instead, it gets told the location of the party and to destroy them. First, it tries to summon allies. It has 50% chance of summoning 2d4 Bearded Devils, so 2.5 on average. Let's just make it 2. Next, it buffs up: Unholy Aura and Flight on everyone. Bone Devils cast Invisibility on themselves, too. They all activate their fear auras. Now, they all use Greater Teleport to the middle of the party.

The party now faces 3 saves vs Fear: One at DC 22, two at DC 17.

And this is assuming the thing gets below average allies. Sure, it might get zero, but it might also get eight, which is pretty damn dangerous. That's eight CR 9 monsters, just as a nice bonus. Also, nine saves, even if everyone passes on 2+, there's still 37% chance of failure. This way, the monster might even be more dangerous than waiting in ambush, and wouldn't need the mindsight for anything. Therefore, one could argue that the change was 0 CR, as it primarily just changed the way the devil fights.

EDIT: @Why scouts are gimps: Most character are gimps. Seriously. Only the most optimized characters survive the gauntlet full of YOU DIE. This pretty much means the wizard and other t1's, really. At least if you play D&D as it was meant to be played, which is not necessary, but if you don't it's not really relevant to the argument here. Hell, a party with t1's that doesn't go to theorethical OP and has Elite Array for stats, no flaws.. That still probably dies, and the replacement of most characters with worse ones doesn't make it better.

Also, traps getting easier.. Sure, some of them do. There's still DC 30 ones at CR 6 and so on, though. The system is really against the trapfinder in this case and often, it's just better to buff and run through them than waste buff durations.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2011, 10:13:24 AM by Amadi »

lans

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Re: Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?
« Reply #317 on: February 09, 2011, 10:34:16 AM »
Quote
Kobolds with levels in NPC classes have their CR reduced by 3. It never states that they need to have levels ONLY in NPC classes. That thing is CR 5.

Is their a common sense clause in the DMG, that would apply here?
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Sunic_Flames

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Re: Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?
« Reply #318 on: February 09, 2011, 10:41:09 AM »
Wasn't the item in question a continuous-use Arcane Sight item?  As in, the 3rd-level spell Arcane Sight?  That doesn't seem very high-level to me.

No, it was Permanency + Arcane Sight, which requires a CL of 11, and costs 8,160 gold, and gets randomly Sundertarded by pure accident.

An item of Arcane Sight, that worked at will would be lower level... but also cost 30,000 gold. Not. Practical.

That the Factotum is only one stupid enough to split the party on intention, and therefore deserves the horrible fate. Also, that Ice Devil with Mindsight is not +5 CR just because it isn't stupid enough to not hide, and that if you wanted to whine about optimized monsters, you might actually pick something that deserves a higher CR.

The funny thing is that not advanced Spellweavers are the biggest waste of space monster I've ever seen, since any 10th level character could kill them by breathing hard on them. That was an amusing smite though. Good job putting the fuckwit in his place.

Of course, he's still babbling on about how having any sort of information about the party increases the CR. I can actually imagine him doing things like telling an enemy his character's name, and some basic information about them, and honestly expecting the DM to raise the CR of the encounter, thereby rewarding more XP. Any DM worth a damn though would look at him like he imbibed far too many illicit mind altering substances though. Because he has, does, and will. Jaron, stop tripping on LCD, and start making some fucking sense.

Now I actually want to DM for him, just so he can see how a real DM runs real enemies, and not dumbass mobs who stick their heads in the snow and never know anything about the PCs, ever. It won't last long, as his lazy gimp will be slaughtered by the combat music (not the combat... the music for the combat) but hey, it'd be funny.

Ignoring baiting. Also, good job Amadi on illustrating why you just run through the traps instead of taking a trap gimp Rogue. Not the main point of this, but useful anyways.

@DM: I was mostly responding to JaronK's whine about the Ice Devil not being an appropriate encounter and being like CR gazillion. It's 14 at most, and an ECL 10 party with 5 members and say, 32 PB, is probably going to face CR 12 all the time. Flaws add to this number, and so on. I don't know exactly what the size/rules of Sunic's group is, but that does, to me, seem like a very reasonable encounter. The Spell Weaver not so much. And even then, the Spell Weaver is probably CR 18 or less, since it doesn't actually get epic spells due to limited HD.

4 level 10s.

Undead Cleric, Master of Shrouds early entry. Spellstitched for multithreat.
Living Cleric, has Church Inquisitor and Divine Oracle (not heavy armor evasion yet though). Phrenic for multithreat. LA buyoff makes him 9 right now.
Druid, slight animal companion bent.
Wizard, optimized for save DCs.

They've already blazed through CR + 1-2 encounters with ruthless efficiency. Hell, the fucking lowest level party member just about one rounded a CR + 1 encounter. I say just about, because he did get a Polymorph first, and the target was at -1 afterwards. Mostly because natural 1 on one of the three attacks. Sure, it was a very weak encounter (Magical Beasts are not worth their CR). But still. This isn't some group of incompetent fuckwits the likes of JaronK. These are good characters, run by good players. The type that you can throw anything level appropriate at, and know they can deal with it.

Skipping past more of Jaron's fail, where he insists playing enemies remotely intelligently is worth a CR bump, while at the same time bitching, and lying by claiming I am not playing them smart.

Oh and by the way Amadi. Summons cannot use their Teleport abilities. So that doesn't work. It's also Bone Devils, not Bearded Devils.
Smiting Imbeciles since 1985.

If you hear this music, run.

And don't forget:


There is no greater contribution than Hi Welcome.

Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.

IP proofing and avoiding being CAPed OR - how to make characters relevant in the long term.

Friends don't let friends be Short Bus Hobos.

[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

Amadi

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Re: Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?
« Reply #319 on: February 09, 2011, 10:51:57 AM »
To be fair, the thing could summon Bearded Devils, too. There's just about no point ever doing that. 1d6 CR 5 or 2d4 CR 9 ones? :P