Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?

[Brainpiercing]

COP does not come anywhere close, try again.

Question: "Do I succeed at everything I do forever XOR do I say the word hello within the next round"

he answer that I get in response is the correct answer.

If the answer is "true", I keep my mouth shut.  I succeed at everything I do forever.
If the answer is "false", I say hello, and I succeed at everything I do forever.

As I said, the answer is obviously "maybe", which is true, either way, and completely RAW. There are other ways to do useful things with COP, this is not one of them. And if you ask what the most dangerous enemy is you're going to meet, well, then there's a second most dangerous, and a third, etc. The point being, I still like a scout/recon guy in the party. But of course, he doesn't NEED to be mundane, sure he could cast spells, too.

[The_Mad_Linguist]

COP does not come anywhere close, try again.

Question: "Do I succeed at everything I do forever XOR do I say the word hello within the next round"

he answer that I get in response is the correct answer.

If the answer is "true", I keep my mouth shut.  I succeed at everything I do forever.
If the answer is "false", I say hello, and I succeed at everything I do forever.

As I said, the answer is obviously "maybe", which is true, either way, and completely RAW. There are other ways to do useful things with COP, this is not one of them. And if you ask what the most dangerous enemy is you're going to meet, well, then there's a second most dangerous, and a third, etc. The point being, I still like a scout/recon guy in the party. But of course, he doesn't NEED to be mundane, sure he could cast spells, too.

"If you answered every question correctly with either true or false, what answer would you give to:?"

[veekie]

^^
The veracity of any given question is going to change from moment to moment no less.
E.g. asking about the time.

[Midnight_v]

Necropolitan Whispergnome with Darkstalker and lifesight

 
Are you fucking kidding me? I don't agree with this because ow many of those do you see running around?
 Let me tell you something, when you say shit like that its almost admitting defeat. Why? You're basically saying to be "Serious about stealthing"...
...You need to be a goddamn science experiment. Okay okay you can get those type of shennanigans off in a PbP sometimes, but those games are by FAR on the liberal side of things. That is very rarely allowed, if you're honest about it or hell if you google whisper gnome and look at the threads about them, you'll find that most people are experiencing things  akin to "no".
 More importantly this... You've optimized race/template/feats...to be a scout.
A nominally useful role but easily replaced honestly.  This brings back the original point of the thread... What is your party role. Notably not about penis measuring against sunic.
  So if we take it as a given that "Magic does it better" okay fine. I'll go with that... We have a stealther in the party, and your job is to scout, giving the party advanced time to buff. The argument that you'll never get discovered is moot for a couple reasons as well but I'll go into that once someone provides a class for the build.
However This:

any given NPC/Monster could possibly have access to any number of powerful, often whole archetype nullifying, spells

and this:

you're basically just optimizing against stealthers, and working pretty darn hard at it.

AND THIS:

every single monster and NPC in their campaigns as heavily optimized, extraordinarily intelligent, unnaturally paranoid, full casters?

Are basically, very leading, bullshit statments, and I respect Bkdubs123 and JaronK IMMENESLY but lets be honestly Alarm is a 1st level spell on the Bard,Ranger(not full casters), Sor/Wiz list.
 No save, no bullshit hyperbole about optimizing against assassins or whatever. Just a 1st level core spell, on 3 popular classes spell list. So people are at LEAST casting that everyday if you're on team evil.
and on another note ....alarm is Also its the most common spell trigger for traps btw. Now whether you recognize it or not the most popular trap in D&D would prettymuch be the "Glitterdust trap" at low levels but it gets Oh so much worse.
 If its NOT a caster then we're likley talking some mechanical trap but even Kobolds make those so you should be having that happen periodically, scouting is a very dangerous job.
So that scenario where you're caugt alone and killed is SOooooo very realistic, and thats not about being an ass Dm, thats just about the simple fact of the way dungeons are designed.

 All that being said: Its an optional class role, I'll agree that make it viable in the sense that "Yeah its able to be played in a game" But it is NOT "NEEDED" either. Not at least simply for the benefit of being stealthy alone.

This is why I'm the go-to guy for psionics pstuff

Hell yeah you are. I originally wanted that to be me, instead I got stuck with "Barbarians" ce lest vie...

[Kajhera]

Random note: A kobold expert is better at recon than a kobold adept who fails to cast any useful spells except prestidigitation.

The kobold adept is however better at debuffing, given creative targets for that prestidigitation.

[bkdubs123]

Midnight, JaronK only brought up that incredibly low-level Stealth optimized abomination because of the arms race type shit Sunic was bringing up. You say that JaronK's implication that to be "serious about stealth" is ludicrous because that will never happen in a game and yet you agree with Sunic that all enemies all the time have every possible stealth nullification defense up and running? Think about it.

I'm not trying to argue that magic doesn't "do it better" most of the time when compared to mundane stealth. I'm not trying to argue that scouting isn't dangerous either. But when Sunic starts saying insane things and giving no support for them and you keep agreeing with him with no great reason I can see, I feel compelled to inject a little sanity into the thread.

Alarm. Really? Okay, so now team badguy knows that there's been a disturbance in Strut A. That's it. The spell in no way thwarts your stealth. And this is if you didn't detect the trap and/or disarm it in the first place.

Glitterdust trap is pretty nasty if it gets pulled on you, but of course if you just hang out for 1 minute or less the glittering, and thus the -40 penalty to Hide, fades (if it's Alarm+Glitterdust, well, obviously you fail and run like hell; also, semi-offtopic, anyone have any idea what happens if you just cover yourself in a heavy cloak or something after getting glitterganked?).

And seriously, you're just agreeing with that leading, bullshit statement I made: that all enemies are paranoid, full casters. If they aren't, well, Scouts, Rogues, Assassins, etc; they have trapfinding for a reason.

Finally,

So that scenario where you're caugt alone and killed is SOooooo very realistic, and thats not about being an ass Dm, thats just about the simple fact of the way dungeons are designed.

This and the idea that Sunic keeps suggesting, but giving absolutely no evidence to support the claim, where any Scout that moves ahead has no chance of spotting any enemy guards but will always in any possible situation be spotted. What is this I don't even

In media such as movies or literature how often do you see or read about Scout characters just charging ahead constantly without any thought as to what the consequences might be? Never? Right, just like Scout characters in D&D. If you aren't properly prepared to Scout an area, you don't. Thus, you live. If you're scouting ahead and you notice a trap, but don't think you can disable it without getting caught or ganked you move back to the group and inform them of your findings. Or, as is also common in media, if you spring an alarm or are otherwise spotted while sneaking about, mutter "fuck" under your breath, break connection to your party and get the hell out of dodge to hopefully rehide somewhere and eventually rejoin your party. And remember, that's the worst case scenario.

I'm not trying to claim that "no-magic" stealth is viable beyond level 4 or 5, but then again no-magic anything is retarded and a failure at anything other than very low levels and we all know this. But a smart mundane Scout can effectively provide recon and intel to their party at low levels, and as long as he chooses his missions carefully he can do it without getting killed.

[Sunic_Flames]

Well, if you could ignore whole archetypes on the cheap, why wouldn't you? Rogue types are the easiest to negate, followed by beatsticks. As such, many do either or both without even trying.

How many DMs other than, from what I can gather, Sunic, run every single monster and NPC in their campaigns as heavily optimized, extraordinarily intelligent, unnaturally paranoid, full casters? Because trying to argue that mundane stealth is worthless because of a combination of spamming CoP and usage of Mindsight, Lifesight, AND Touchsight implies that every adventure in every campaign ran by any DM does this all the time in every encounter. Which, I shouldn't have to point out, is ludicrous beyond belief.

1: COP is an example of Divination, aka the kind of recon that actually accomplishes something other than character death. It is not the beginning and the end of it. So stop mentioning it as if they were.

Let's use the sample stealther I gave (Necropolitan Whispergnome Factotum 3+ with Darkstalker and Lifesight, who probably at least has Shadow Jaunt (either via the cheap magic gloves or via a Swordsage level or two).  Could be higher level, could have other feats, but this is sufficient.  Assume he bothered to boost his hide score appropriate to the resources in his campaign.  According to you, this would be instant character death.

Ok. Let's ignore all the many problems undead characters have, not all of which are solved by a Disguise check. Let's also ignore that I banned Factorum, as the only class that is banned because it gives me a headache, and that it does so because you constantly mention borderline TO stuff with it so I just say fuck it and ban because I can't be fucked to sort it all.

Or you teleported back towards your party in the first round (because you bothered to have a decent initiative) and rehid or otherwise evaced.

Shadow Jaunt is only 50 feet. If the party is that close, you're not solo stealthing. Also, no one has good init but casters barring highly specific circumstances that are not in play here, so you going first isn't as likely as you think.

Why was Mindsight trumped by a low wall?  Did the scout fail to check the obvious nearby ambush locations before the party randomly picked a fight?  Why?  And due to Lifesight, he'd have seen the beacons shining behind said low wall.  Not to mention, if the party is taking someone down somewhere where there might be reinforcements, casting Silence first is SOP.  If those guards are so hidden that they are completely out of LoE and not glowing, they don't hear anything and the guy is dead.

This is an actual example from an actual game, followed by hypotheticals as to what a scout would have done if the party did not wisely realize that splitting the party is suicide and scouts get spotted and slaughtered.

LoE. Ok, so you attempt to climb the building to get up there and see if there's anything waiting in ambush for you. Since you are in plain view, you cannot hide, so you are automatically spotted, focus fired, and beaten down in 1 round. Alternately you bum a Fly off the casters. You are now flying in plain sight. See focus fire beatdown. If you cast Silence, everyone in the party, but one person glares at you, as they are spellcasters. The enemy, meanwhile takes a single move action to move away and informs his boss that he has a problem here. Not to mention that to do this, you'd first have to get everyone up there. See auto spotting. If you, alone somehow sneak up there without being auto seen, you become auto detected the moment you set foot on the roof, as no amount of stealth skills let you get around the fact that solid objects, such as characters displace other solid objects, such as tarps over roofs.

Also, these guys have init modifiers in the range of +12 to +16, and oh yeah, it's level 7 (you are 6, due to LA). So no, you're not going first.

If the guards had Mindblank (since you're assuming higher levels) then the divinations auto-failed.  Even nondetection means a possibility of failure.  Remember, you're the guy who thinks Touchsight might be up randomly, so Nondtection seems more plausible (due to longer duration).  However, the scout saw them glowing right away (lifesight) and instantly knew about them (and if he's clever, the party first killed the ambushers with a silence field up because they're not in LOS of the main target... the main target now doesn't even know his guys are dead).

Not that high. Nondetection was potentially available, but they didn't have it.

Also see previous statements.

Why does the scout always lose initiative?  This is precisely why I always make sure my scout characters have great initiative (it's a good idea anyway).  And heck, the best skillmonkey class (Factotum) even has built in Int to initiative on a dex and int based class... and the rest of the scouts are dex based at least.  +1 Eager Armor Spikes of Warning are standard gear.  The way you describe games you're dead anyway if you don't go first, so why is this scout not covering this angle?

See previous statements. Also, Dex/Int builds can't hurt anything. The spikes you mention would cost over half WBL, and the only reason it's not higher is because I increased WBL by 50%.

Or Mindsight.  Or, you know, a really high spot score.  Though situations like this are why my parties often pull stuff like journeying to locations in an Enveloping Pit carried by the stealth character as he sneaks along, or flies along.  Choke points are carefully checked for obvious reasons.

Show me a level 10 character who can reliably make checks in the 40s and 50s. I'll wait. Also, you're out in the open, so you're not hiding. You get auto spotted when you get anywhere near. Mindsight works only within 100 feet. Lifesight works at visibility ranges, but ultimately an undead that can actually contribute to the party, such as a Spellstitched Necropolitian Cleric is far superior than some ineffective little scout.

So you either don't notice the enemy, notice them at the same time they notice you, or notice them after they notice you. Invisible, flying summons surround you. Their first move is to Dimensional Anchor until it sticks, followed by Wall of Ice to cut off mundane escapes if they have any actions left. Meanwhile, the ambusher is bombing you with Empowered Cone of Colds and auto attacks. And since the rest of the party is hiding in some extradimensional space... Since this is level 10, you'll have 75 HP. It won't take long at all for them to be plowed through. In fact they'll go much faster than the previous example, as the first game is max HP (giving you 72 at 6), whereas the second is only round up (giving you 75 at 10).

Why?  Why can this guy automatically see the virtually impossible to see scout?  Has no one in your games actually tried to have a decent hide score?  This makes absolutely no sense.  And why isn't this guy Mindblanked if he's a single ambusher at the levels you're talking about, thus rendering divinations worthless?

JaronK

Because Mind Blank is a level 15 ability, meaning anything that has it, and is fighting a level 10 party is obviously too much. Even so divinations would not have been especially helpful in that situation due to the circumstances. Meanwhile you're in the open so you can't hide, and even if you could high perception skills and Mindsight.

[snakeman830]

Whisper Gnome might be preferable, but a Forest Gnome is a core alternative that is almost as good.  They trade +2 Dex and +4 Move Silently for not being able to be tracked.  You know what that Whisper Gnome can't stop?  Patrols with dogs.  A mundane and common tactic that will alert the area of an intruder, although they will only know of his presence after he's been in an area.

At level 20, it's not difficult to have a Hide modifier of +40 and Hide in Plain Sight with no templates or magic (no magic items even bought).  This is just your average Kobold Scout (+7 Dex, +8 size, +23 ranks, +2 Shadowsilk armor).  Anyone focused on stealth even slightly will grab Darkstalker if possible.  With a simple +5 Tome, this gives us +43 with no magic active on the character, not to mention the 30ft Blindsight to help him out locating foes.  He has a decent chance of successfully hiding from a Solar and Balor while simultaneously not showing up on Detect Magic or Arcane Sight.  Oh, and with his Freedom of Movement and 60ft land speed, he can get out of trouble pretty well.  Probably took Martial Study to nab some Shadow Hand teleportation for extra insurance and likely picked up Assassin's Stance and Shadow Blade as well.  It's a perfectly reasonable archtype (granted, they may choose to save three feats. and trade the last two levels of Scout for Swordsage.  Still no magic).

Now, the Hide in Plain Sight only works in natural settings, but natural caves work well for that.  Actual dungeons virtually always have shadows that you can hide in anyway, not to mention cover such as corners or scenery.

Or Mindsight.  Or, you know, a really high spot score.  Though situations like this are why my parties often pull stuff like journeying to locations in an Enveloping Pit carried by the stealth character as he sneaks along, or flies along.  Choke points are carefully checked for obvious reasons.

Show me a level 10 character who can reliably make checks in the 40s and 50s. I'll wait.

Show me an enemy that can consitantly do the same.  I'll wait.

Also, you're out in the open, so you're not hiding. You get auto spotted when you get anywhere near.

Dark template, brilliant.  So long as it isn't full daylight, anywhere is a perfect hiding spot.

So you either don't notice the enemy, notice them at the same time they notice you, or notice them after they notice you.

Or notice them before they notice you, or niether notices the other.  This is all very likely, especially as anyone trying to be stealthy can jack their Hide modifier higher than Spot.

Invisible, flying summons surround you. Their first move is to Dimensional Anchor until it sticks, followed by Wall of Ice to cut off mundane escapes if they have any actions left. Meanwhile, the ambusher is bombing you with Empowered Cone of Colds and auto attacks.

So every encounter has a Malconvoker with Invisible Spell that's casting 7th level spells, meaning he's at least 5 levels above you?  No.  Just no.  Saying "I can beat your trick when I've got 5 levels on you" is saying nothing.

[Sunic_Flames]

Sure thing.

Ice Devil, who maxed Hide instead of Search. That's 17 ranks, 5 Dex. He then goes and almost completely buries himself in snow. So instead of a -4 size penalty, he gets a +12 or +16 size bonus as only a small part of him is exposed. Let's see... 1d20+34 or 1d20+38 Hide. He's not moving, so Move Silently checks are unnecessary. Yes, that's reliably hitting checks in the 40s and 50s. Technically it goes higher with distance modifiers. The downside is that he can't move without exposing himself, but that's fine. He could sit there content and leave you wondering where the fuck all these SLAs are coming from (if you can't see him) or burst out and reduce you to 1 HP if you can. After all his opening attack hit for 74, and you only have 75... If you save, 38. Course that assumes his opening move is cone of cold, and not auto attacking, the latter of which would be obviously better vs a single target.

Your move.

He didn't mention Dark template. But if he did, you're outside, and it's currently 15:15. So yeah, nice and bright.

Mindsight means it sees you, even if you don't see it. If you have Mindsight too, you detect each other at 100 feet. If you have Lifesight, you could detect at greater distances, but hills and snow = reduced visibility.

Anything with a summon SLA can do this. It just so happens the Ice Devil has such an ability. It also just so happens Bone Devils have both Invisibility and Fly as at will SLAs, so they are always invisible fliers, unless they do something to break invisibility. And since most devils have See Invis or True Seeing, it does not interfere with their tactics.

[snakeman830]

Ahh, that's how.  You're relying on houserules to get the check that high.  (I haven't seen anything that would reduce effective size by burying yourself.  In fact, this is part of what the Hide check assumes).  So, your calculations are off by 17 points by the rules.

If he didn't mention Dark template, then where did the LA+1 that you mentioned come from?  Necropoliton doesn't give it.  Whisper gnome doesn't either.

Cloudy day or wait for nightfall.  Easy move on the scout's part and indeed a smart one.  Not to mention that traversing across the open in broad daylight, it would be smarter to have the entire party out (unless one is a vampire for some dumb reason), therefore making this a situation that won't come up without extreme circumstances because you aren't going to be able to sneak anyhow in that situation.  So yes, when you've got a situation that's two opposed forces and it's stacked heavily in the favor of one side, of course the other is going to have a difficult time.  That's true no matter what a character is capable of.  Try sending a Wizard through a Kobold lair situated in a dead magic zone.  I bet he won't fare well either.

Not to mention that most stealthy types have Evasion and great reflex saves, so a Cone of Cold will most likely deal 0 damage.

[Unbeliever]

Sure thing.

Ice Devil, who maxed Hide instead of Search. That's 17 ranks, 5 Dex. He then goes and almost completely buries himself in snow. So instead of a -4 size penalty, he gets a +12 or +16 size bonus as only a small part of him is exposed. Let's see... 1d20+34 or 1d20+38 Hide. He's not moving, so Move Silently checks are unnecessary. Yes, that's reliably hitting checks in the 40s and 50s. Technically it goes higher with distance modifiers. The downside is that he can't move without exposing himself, but that's fine. He could sit there content and leave you wondering where the fuck all these SLAs are coming from (if you can't see him) or burst out and reduce you to 1 HP if you can. After all his opening attack hit for 74, and you only have 75... If you save, 38. Course that assumes his opening move is cone of cold, and not auto attacking, the latter of which would be obviously better vs a single target.

Your move.

He didn't mention Dark template. But if he did, you're outside, and it's currently 15:15. So yeah, nice and bright.

Mindsight means it sees you, even if you don't see it. If you have Mindsight too, you detect each other at 100 feet. If you have Lifesight, you could detect at greater distances, but hills and snow = reduced visibility.

Anything with a summon SLA can do this. It just so happens the Ice Devil has such an ability. It also just so happens Bone Devils have both Invisibility and Fly as at will SLAs, so they are always invisible fliers, unless they do something to break invisibility. And since most devils have See Invis or True Seeing, it does not interfere with their tactics.

The idea is that this is an Ice Devil that a PC summoned to take the place of the stealther PC, or is this an enemy meant to counter stealth?  I wasn't sure.  EDIT:  it was a counter to snakeman, sorry, reading quickly. 

First off, the "I bury myself in snow so I'm now a tiny creature" is a new rule on me.  And, it doesn't seem like it should only apply to big creatures -- surely the whisper gnome (or whatever cheesy race you pick) can bury himself in snow, too, and should be a fine?  ... micro?  ... sized creature w/ a similar bonus to hide.  It's just his tiny little head showing, after all.

I will readily concede that a CR 13 outsider w/ customized feats, skill ranks, lying in wait and prepared will generally be capable of countering a given character role or, alternatively, replace that character role and obviate that need.  I think that's probably true w/ most character roles, though maybe I'd have to reach a little higher in the CR department.  Like, I can probably make a Planetar again w/ customized feats and skills, that either counters or fills the niche of a divine caster -- they are 17th level clerics after all. 

I don't know what that proves.  This encounter is obviously an uncommon one, so what you're doing is trading off the risks of this sort of thing happening (a corner condition case) for all the possible benefits of scouting.  Again, if those don't generally exist (e.g., no buffing, no great first strike capability), then I'd never scout. 

All that being said: Its an optional class role, I'll agree that make it viable in the sense that "Yeah its able to be played in a game" But it is NOT "NEEDED" either. Not at least simply for the benefit of being stealthy alone.

I believe this is the most concise, correct answer to the question that started this thread.  I'd only add, since this thread like all of them has gone the way of magic v. mundane, that "mundane" (meaning skill-based, the sort of thing you spend class features, feats, or levels on) seems to me more valuable as the levels get higher b/c the counters to magical concealment are more common.

[Garryl]

Sure thing.

Ice Devil, who maxed Hide instead of Search. That's 17 ranks, 5 Dex. He then goes and almost completely buries himself in snow. So instead of a -4 size penalty, he gets a +12 or +16 size bonus as only a small part of him is exposed. Let's see... 1d20+34 or 1d20+38 Hide.

It does not work that way. Burying yourself and only leaving a small part exposed is just improved cover, which is only a flat +10 bonus to Hide checks.

[Sunic_Flames]

Ahh, that's how.  You're relying on houserules to get the check that high.  (I haven't seen anything that would reduce effective size by burying yourself.  In fact, this is part of what the Hide check assumes).  So, your calculations are off by 17 points by the rules.

Except that not all hide checks involve burying yourself in snow. In fact most involve sneaking around without being covered.

It's obviously something that only has value when lying in ambush, as otherwise the can't move thing renders it moot.

And if you're trying to tell me a 12 foot tall bug man is just as easy to see when hiding, but fully exposed as he is when everything but his face is hidden, well that's fucking absurd now isn't it?

But even assuming that did not apply, seeing things is Wis based. Know what stat Dex/Int builds don't have exceptionally high? Yeah. So 13 + nothing vs 1d20+18 + distance... still losing, even if you pretend you're right.

If he didn't mention Dark template, then where did the LA+1 that you mentioned come from?  Necropoliton doesn't give it.  Whisper gnome doesn't either.

I thought Whisper Gnome did. But even if it does not, Necropolitian still costs 3k XP. Which, interestingly enough is exactly what buying off LA 1 costs anyways. It also, interestingly enough still means you start at level 6. 1,250 XP to 7, but since this is the first fight of the campaign you haven't gotten that yet. So it makes no difference either way.

Cloudy day or wait for nightfall.  Easy move on the scout's part and indeed a smart one.  Not to mention that traversing across the open in broad daylight, it would be smarter to have the entire party out (unless one is a vampire for some dumb reason), therefore making this a situation that won't come up without extreme circumstances because you aren't going to be able to sneak anyhow in that situation.  So yes, when you've got a situation that's two opposed forces and it's stacked heavily in the favor of one side, of course the other is going to have a difficult time.  That's true no matter what a character is capable of.  Try sending a Wizard through a Kobold lair situated in a dead magic zone.  I bet he won't fare well either.

Ok, so you have to fiat, or use abilities you don't have to make it cloudy, or you have to waste the entire party's time, and mess with their schedule and abilities by not advancing for multiple hours. And most enemies can still see in the dark. Ice Devils have a specific ability that means not only do they have Darkvision, but they can see in the dark up to the full range of their vision.

Not to mention that most stealthy types have Evasion and great reflex saves, so a Cone of Cold will most likely deal 0 damage.

Does that include his favorite class there?

As for the other post: No, the Ice Devil was there for reasons I cannot disclose. It has nothing to do with the PCs, in that it isn't created or summoned by them, but it is there because of them. It was brought up because a lot of people keep pretending that scouts can prevent ambushes, so I brought up actual ambushes from an actual game, and then hypothesized what would happen with a scout there.

Yes, the Whisper Gnome can also bury himself in snow. This means he can't move (and still benefit). Since his goal is to scout ahead, and therefore move this is obviously not helpful.

The Ice Devil wasn't changed all that much. Almost none of the changes pertained to stealth busting. It does a fine job of that on its own with perception skills in the 20s, and True Seeing. Mindsight was a fuck it, it has telepathy, why not ability.

As for mundane skills, those are shut down far more trivially than magic. Anything that can shut down the magic pwns the beatsticks as a matter of course.

And really, if this party was going to scout, which they aren't because it wastes time and kills the scout, the aforementioned undead Cleric would just have a goddamn Wraith do it. Incorporeal Undead = immune to every auto win ability but Mindsight, and the panics animals thing, makes no sound, and can hide in solid objects (undetectable) and still hear, even if it can't see.

Which means best case scenario is Jaron's little Necropolitian Whisper Gnome Dark Half Fuckwit or whatever the hell it is has just been CAPed by a real character.

[bearsarebrown]

Sunic I don't get your point. A CR 11 Ice Devil who is ready for the PCs and has set up an ambush can defeat a level 6 Factotum? Uh, duh? Or is the point that a character designed for hiding isn't a character designed for perception? Wouldn't the Whisper Gnome have Lifesight anyways? But this is all pedantic. What's your stance in the argument? The scout's job is information gathering. It's utterly dwarfed by Divination but Quadratic Wizards blah blah. At low levels(1-4, maybe 5-6) it will work often but not perfectly. The gnome won't necessarily be able to spot all ambushes but it will probably be able to say "hey there 6 guards up there" or "there's two trolls in this room," do you not agree? And a smart scout has countermeasures to run away if things get hairy, right? Like a high initiative or good enough defenses to be able to survive one round. Or maybe even some neato immediate actions.

No one cares about your house rules about WBL or banning Factotums or made up Hide bonuses. We're playing 3.5e not Sunic's RPG. That's just as stupid as people saying CoP doesn't work because the deity will get mad at you.

[snakeman830]

Ahh, that's how.  You're relying on houserules to get the check that high.  (I haven't seen anything that would reduce effective size by burying yourself.  In fact, this is part of what the Hide check assumes).  So, your calculations are off by 17 points by the rules.

Except that not all hide checks involve burying yourself in snow. In fact most involve sneaking around without being covered.

It's obviously something that only has value when lying in ambush, as otherwise the can't move thing renders it moot.

And if you're trying to tell me a 12 foot tall bug man is just as easy to see when hiding, but fully exposed as he is when everything but his face is hidden, well that's fucking absurd now isn't it?

And I was corrected two posts later.  However, you're still assuming a 17 point swing when all you get is a 10 point from improved cover.  Missing that 7 is enough to drop you below 40 except on a very high roll.

If he didn't mention Dark template, then where did the LA+1 that you mentioned come from?  Necropoliton doesn't give it.  Whisper gnome doesn't either.

I thought Whisper Gnome did. But even if it does not, Necropolitian still costs 3k XP. Which, interestingly enough is exactly what buying off LA 1 costs anyways. It also, interestingly enough still means you start at level 6. 1,250 XP to 7, but since this is the first fight of the campaign you haven't gotten that yet. So it makes no difference either way.

Who said anything about this being the first thing in the campaign?  Now you're making up shit to try and hold onto your pre-concieved notion that Mundane=Lose.  Oh, and now we're down to level 7?  At least when the party was level 10, there's a shot at beating an Ice Devil.  Yeah, you're really making yourself look good...

Cloudy day or wait for nightfall.  Easy move on the scout's part and indeed a smart one.  Not to mention that traversing across the open in broad daylight, it would be smarter to have the entire party out (unless one is a vampire for some dumb reason), therefore making this a situation that won't come up without extreme circumstances because you aren't going to be able to sneak anyhow in that situation.  So yes, when you've got a situation that's two opposed forces and it's stacked heavily in the favor of one side, of course the other is going to have a difficult time.  That's true no matter what a character is capable of.  Try sending a Wizard through a Kobold lair situated in a dead magic zone.  I bet he won't fare well either.

Ok, so you have to fiat, or use abilities you don't have to make it cloudy, or you have to waste the entire party's time, and mess with their schedule and abilities by not advancing for multiple hours. And most enemies can still see in the dark. Ice Devils have a specific ability that means not only do they have Darkvision, but they can see in the dark up to the full range of their vision.

No.  You are either all advancing together, and thus wasting no time, or you wait a few hours becuase it's idiotic to send one person ahead with everyone else hiding in an item in broad daylight on a snowfield, especially when you suspect there's someone or something keeping a lookout.  What's this?  Non-casters can play things smart?  Blasphemy!

Not to mention that most stealthy types have Evasion and great reflex saves, so a Cone of Cold will most likely deal 0 damage.

Does that include his favorite class there?

Factotums?  No, but virtually all other classes I would consider scouting with, yes.

As for the other post: No, the Ice Devil was there for reasons I cannot disclose. It has nothing to do with the PCs, in that it isn't created or summoned by them, but it is there because of them. It was brought up because a lot of people keep pretending that scouts can prevent ambushes, so I brought up actual ambushes from an actual game, and then hypothesized what would happen with a scout there.

Yes, the Whisper Gnome can also bury himself in snow. This means he can't move (and still benefit). Since his goal is to scout ahead, and therefore move this is obviously not helpful.

The Ice Devil wasn't changed all that much. Almost none of the changes pertained to stealth busting. It does a fine job of that on its own with perception skills in the 20s, and True Seeing. Mindsight was a fuck it, it has telepathy, why not ability.

As for mundane skills, those are shut down far more trivially than magic. Anything that can shut down the magic pwns the beatsticks as a matter of course.

And really, if this party was going to scout, which they aren't because it wastes time and kills the scout, the aforementioned undead Cleric would just have a goddamn Wraith do it. Incorporeal Undead = immune to every auto win ability but Mindsight, and the panics animals thing, makes no sound, and can hide in solid objects (undetectable) and still hear, even if it can't see.

Which means best case scenario is Jaron's little Necropolitian Whisper Gnome Dark Half Fuckwit or whatever the hell it is has just been CAPed by a real character.

Oh, so you're bringing a niche case that is set up specifically to be obscenely difficult to sneak past  as the common encounter?  A monster that's a CR6 above the party level as a gaurd?  I wouldn't want to play in that game, not since I'm being told from the very first encounter that we're all fucked.

Note, though:Ice Devils don't have accesss to True Seeing.  Not even Pit Fiends do.

Also, being a Scout means maxing perception skills.  Interestingly, you don't need that high of an Intelligence score because classes suited for scouting have plety of skill points.  The exception is a Factotum, but all the others can afford a lower INT to have a higher Wisdom.  A Factotum can afford a lower Dex and have a higher Wisdom.  I really don't see your point.

[Midnight_v]

I'm only going to discuss what I veiw as relavent to our discsussion from our post BK

Alarm. Really? Okay, so now team badguy knows that there's been a disturbance in Strut A. That's it. The spell in no way thwarts your stealth. And this is if you didn't detect the trap and/or disarm it in the first place

No. This:

The proximity trigger used most often for magic device traps is the alarm spell.

The srd goes on to list a HUGE list of level appropriate traps magical AND mundane. However, most of the magical traps fucking kill you. Glitterdust and hanging around for 1 minute assume you make the fortsave and that people don't just show up to fucking assist in the fore mentioned killing you. The fact that theres a disturbance in strut A alone should but the facility on alert *or whatever scenario you happen to be running.
 

You say that JaronK's implication that to be "serious about stealth" is ludicrous because that will never happen in a game and yet you agree with Sunic that all enemies all the time have every possible stealth nullification defense up and running? Think about it.

I was quoting when I said "serious about stealth" cause I see people seem to say that alot in the tread when they bring up that arms race bullshit.
I don't think sunic is the one that started that shit but I do recognize he's not one to back down from it.
Moreover... I'M not saying all enimies all the time have every possible stealth nullification.
  I'm sayiing that ANYONE with the capability to secure an area where they live... will. If you're playing D&D and no one ever or REGULARLY has magical traps or hell non magical traps of a fair level in an area and people aren't using UTTERLY reasonable things like Alarm, (which may just wake the wizard or whatever the fuck but still) then yeah that's gonna tilt your veiw about it.

And seriously, you're just agreeing with that leading, bullshit statement I made: that all enemies are paranoid, full casters. If they aren't, well, Scouts, Rogues, Assassins, etc; they have trapfinding for a reason

. Rangers... are not full casters. I don't consider bards to be either. Wizards are Sorcerors are and generally yeah when you fight any humanoid force you're going to be encountering one of those 4 classes in some way shape or form. The all have alarm as a level one spell. They also have traps. Aberrations tend to have slaves that do the same thing on they're behalf. Plus the potential for mindsight, but really they have all kinds of weird ass defenses depending on what you're dealing with. Undead have accesss to life sight, wraiths out the box have lifesense. . . etc.
 I feel I'm being the realistic one here, cause if not then you go into the "stealth is uber!" and we both know its not.
 
  Now I give you some classes have trapfinding but thats just another level of thing that needs to be optimized however the example that someone brought up a second ago the Swordsage or whatever didn't. Some of the people mention hide in plain sight. Again this arms race shit is not on the not impressed by steath side but ultimately thats irrelavant. So Ymmv.
 Finally this, If your job is to scout, and return to the party with info as to when to buff up or whatever and you trigger an alarm or trigger a deadfall etc.
 Then you have not completed that objectively, I can't tell you how many adventures from Dungeon, or published modules include things to that effect but its a lot.

In media such as movies or literature how often do you see or read about Scout characters just charging ahead constantly without any thought as to what the consequences might be?

I think thats part of the problem, in media, the badguy do stupid shit, that No one does in real life. Right now I have 2 locks and an alarm system in my apartment. Most of the time in D&D you're breaking in peoples homes with the intent of killing them. If my roomies are asleep and that alarm goes off we tend to all go investigate... mostly cause its fucking loud, and we don't live in a world where the drow might attack at any second. I'm just saying its NOT reasonable to think that Team monster just ignores it when the alarm goes off.

I'm not trying to argue that magic doesn't "do it better" most of the time when compared to mundane stealth. I'm not trying to argue that scouting isn't dangerous either. But when Sunic starts saying insane things and giving no support for them and you keep agreeing with him with no great reason I can see, I feel compelled to inject a little sanity into the thread.

You're not trying to argue that magic doesn't "Do it better"
You're not trying to argue that Scouting isn't dangerous...
Then what? 
 Okay then you have no argument with me other than "Why are you siding with sunic!?"

Very well I'll explain.
[spoiler]  Firstly, let me say that I in someways actually agree with him on these points. In my experience stealth is not a very important part to NOT important part of the party-ing experience. The entirety of this thread is basically about trying to figure out what the hell they're supposed to be doing like at all.
Secondly, you know I can't stomach people arguing what amounts to "He's a dick! Fuck his argument, you don't get to talk cause we don't like your attitude. That shits stupid. People reaction to sunic says waaay more about them than ti does about him. Ultimately, I find myself thinking here's a guy who's opinions are RIGHT about a lot of things but his presentation is off, so people want to do anything to contest him. Especially, downplay his arguments, I find it stupid and none productive... way I figure it though he's needed to keep people from just fapping all over certain topics like this one. It acutally good science in a way. If you have 11 scientist agree on something then its the DUTY of the 12th to disagree and test in the opposite direction. Thats what it seems like sunic represents, how many people in this thread are like "Oh of course stealth is valuable." or "What! It's WAAYY better than magic... if you nerf magic" Oh and "fuck that Sunic, guy his opinions not worth hearing. Truth is I found Sunic_Flame a Loooong time ago on the Wotc forums, arguing with a bunch of idiots who were basically anti-optimization Role"tard", the get your anime out of my D&D gang. I don't think he'd discovered 339 yet really, I even made a post like "Help our fellow optimizer" I just can't stand people to gang up on one dude. Espcially when that dudes points are valid and worth considering. Naw. Fuck that shit forever, bkdubs123, I'm from the Southern U.S. and thats what the bible thumpers do. Thats what the Muslims do and thats what anyone does when they're trying to encourage group think. I gotta stand with him at least till he's blantantly wrong, which really he's not. Course it boils down to  just matters of opioion. Lastly ... all those people who down talk the dude because he's been an asshole to them like EVER just come off like bigger assholes carrying a grudge. Thing is I like Most of the people on this board, I just accept you for what you bring to the table. . . [/spoiler]
There ya go. Rant complete.

[snakeman830]

What I'm arguing is not that stealth alone is a valid party role, but that it isn't insta-killed as Sunic is claiming.  I agree entirely that just being stealthy doesn't warrant a party slot, you actually have to do something that helps everyone.  Scouting is a valid role and every party should have some method of doing it.  That does not mean devote an entire character to it, but it also doesn't mean that any character devoted to it is a waste or unhelpful as Sunic is implying.  Right now, my main beef with him is that he's using a niche case where a lone scout isn't going to do well anyway because everything is set against him and using it as proof that all scouts are useless and will be killed with no chance of survival.

Now, mundane scouting, however, has it's perks.  It's actually easier to accomplish, for one, and is frequently just as effective.  The Alarm spell does pose a diffuclty, but those will go off when the party enters anyway.

Let's say the party triggers the Alarm spell.  Gaurds, monsters, etc. are now all rushing toward them.  Well, that could have gone better...

Party scout triggers the Alarm.  Guards, monsters, etc. are now all rushing toward him, but one person is much more likely to avoid them than the whole party.  He can take a turn and hide himself and wait for the gaurds to leave.  Now the Alarm has been tripped and must be reset.  Meanwhile, the scout just learned quite a bit about what sort of response is made, so the party is prepared for it.  If the Alarm isn't reset, then when he returns with the party, they have less trouble.

Magical scouting may be very good, but there are actually more countermeasures for it than mundane.  Namely Mind Blank, Nondetection, and True Seeing/See Invisiblity.

[Maat_Mons]

Which is why fewer than 92% of scientists agree that gravity exists. 

You shouldn't make sweeping generalizations about an entire religion. 

[Sunic_Flames]

Sunic I don't get your point. A CR 11 Ice Devil who is ready for the PCs and has set up an ambush can defeat a level 6 Factotum? Uh, duh? Or is the point that a character designed for hiding isn't a character designed for perception? Wouldn't the Whisper Gnome have Lifesight anyways? But this is all pedantic. What's your stance in the argument? The scout's job is information gathering. It's utterly dwarfed by Divination but Quadratic Wizards blah blah. At low levels(1-4, maybe 5-6) it will work often but not perfectly. The gnome won't necessarily be able to spot all ambushes but it will probably be able to say "hey there 6 guards up there" or "there's two trolls in this room," do you not agree? And a smart scout has countermeasures to run away if things get hairy, right? Like a high initiative or good enough defenses to be able to survive one round. Or maybe even some neato immediate actions.

No one cares about your house rules about WBL or banning Factotums or made up Hide bonuses. We're playing 3.5e not Sunic's RPG. That's just as stupid as people saying CoP doesn't work because the deity will get mad at you.

Hi Welcome

Ice Devil is CR 13, not 15 or 11. The Factorum in that example is 10, not 6. Try to follow along.

Even if the thing about Hide bonuses is wrong, the Ice Devil auto spots you at 100 feet. Meanwhile it has 1d20+18 Hide +10 from the snow +10 for distance = 1d20+38, therefore it still has no trouble getting results in the 40s and 50s, therefore I am still right.

Since the scout only has 1d20+13 for Spot, he auto loses. No need to even pick up the dice. Hell, the Ice Devil could be right in front of him, and 1d20+28 vs 1d20+13 still means he fails the vast majority of the time, and needs an auto win button just to have a chance. Assuming the enemy let him that close of course.

As it happens, he does have an auto win button, which I have already addressed. The following sequence of events takes place, assuming that the Ice Devil did not detect him normally:

Ice Devil and CAP Victim get to within 100 feet of each other.

CAP Victim learns there is something alive in that snowbank. He has no idea what it is. He has no idea if it's hostile. It could be some guy who got buried, or snowed in, or some burrowing animal, or any number of things that are not a hidden ambusher.

Ice Devil learns there is an Undead over there, of Int x, where x is likely an above average number due to that whole Intelligence based class thing.

Advantage: Team Monster.

Now, with even a cursory familiarity with the party the Ice Devil will know such things as "Oh yeah, one of them is a rather smart undead that likes sneaking around." He then notices that there is, indeed a highly intelligent undead over there, even if he cannot see it with his eyes, and being as he has Int 22 and Wis 22, and is therefore both smarter and wiser than the smartest and wisest people on Earth it is beyond trivial for him to determine that this is likely the same person. Since it obviously has such familiarity, to go hide in a snowbank along the party's path this is well within the bounds of reason to assume.

The CAP Victim suspects something is wrong, but has no proof. The Ice Devil knows exactly what's going down, and can fuck with the CAP Victim in any number of ways. Conjuring up some Bone Devils for lockdown is perhaps the most effective that does not expose it. Bursting out and Empowered (yay planar traits) Cone of Cold the fool is even better, but does expose it.

Likely the CAP Victim is only sure something is wrong when he sees more lights appear around him (if he wins Init) or gets Dimensional Anchored and Wall of Iced (if he does not) by formerly invisible foes. Since Ice Devils only have +5, and Bone Devils only +9, they have a decent chance to go first, but not a good one.

And I was corrected two posts later.  However, you're still assuming a 17 point swing when all you get is a 10 point from improved cover.  Missing that 7 is enough to drop you below 40 except on a very high roll.

Already addressed.

Who said anything about this being the first thing in the campaign?  Now you're making up shit to try and hold onto your pre-concieved notion that Mundane=Lose.  Oh, and now we're down to level 7?  At least when the party was level 10, there's a shot at beating an Ice Devil.  Yeah, you're really making yourself look good...

Hi Welcome

1: These are actual examples from an actual game, as I stated before. In that instance, it is indeed the first fight of the campaign, so you do in fact have the same XP total that you started with.
2: Know how I said there were two different examples, from two different games, and the level 6 or 7 thing was the first and the Ice Devil thing was clearly stated to be the second, and level 10? Try to follow along. It's not hard at all.
3: The details are already defined, being as these are things that already happened, past tense. Again, Hi Welcome

No.  You are either all advancing together, and thus wasting no time, or you wait a few hours becuase it's idiotic to send one person ahead with everyone else hiding in an item in broad daylight on a snowfield, especially when you suspect there's someone or something keeping a lookout.  What's this?  Non-casters can play things smart?  Blasphemy!

Except that you're waiting until night, so you are wasting time. Respect the time limit. That is the most important thing. Oh and I really like how you're fapping off to the whole "rest of the party hides in an extradimensional space, with limited air" thing. I expect that kind of borderline TO tripe from Jaron, but I have higher standards for you. You disappoint me.

Factotums?  No, but virtually all other classes I would consider scouting with, yes.

Ok, so 1 or 38 HP left after one blast, and Dimensional Anchor, so the only viable means of escape is blocked. Yeah, you're fucked. Though, speaking of house rules as mentioned before HP are rounded up. Which means by RAW you would have 70.5 HP, and not 75 HP, therefore it is quite literally a save or die, as undead are instantly destroyed at 0 HP.

Oh, so you're bringing a niche case that is set up specifically to be obscenely difficult to sneak past  as the common encounter?  A monster that's a CR6 above the party level as a gaurd?  I wouldn't want to play in that game, not since I'm being told from the very first encounter that we're all fucked.

3 higher. And not a common guard. It is however in the way. Also, in the second game this is not the first encounter, though you still have not gained any levels, so as stated the hypothetical scout in this instance would be level 10 as well.

Note, though:Ice Devils don't have accesss to True Seeing.  Not even Pit Fiends do.

Ok, but still has Mindsight.

Also, being a Scout means maxing perception skills.  Interestingly, you don't need that high of an Intelligence score because classes suited for scouting have plety of skill points.  The exception is a Factotum, but all the others can afford a lower INT to have a higher Wisdom.  A Factotum can afford a lower Dex and have a higher Wisdom.  I really don't see your point.

Uh huh. And I assumed 13 ranks. The problem is adding stuff to that 13, since you don't have all that much Wis. Even if it is a few points higher, it's still well short of 1d20+38. And besides, it has an auto win ability, so why does it care?

By the way, Outsiders are not very good at ambushing. Skills are a factor of HD, and Outsiders only have about 1 HD/CR. Other creature types would be far superior at it. Unless you are claiming that an end modifier of +18 is good vs a level 10 party?

[snakeman830]

Oh, I wouldn't be sticking my party in a portable hole to travel across a snowfield unless they didn't need to breathe or had some other method of getting air.  That is a dumb move beyond any other.  "Hey, let's kill 80% of the party with no save!"

You never mentioned a time limit until just now, so it was safe to assume there was none.  Thus, waiting for nightfall is perfectly legit.

I think I'm getting confused in that you are using the same situation for both the level 10 and level 7 parties and switch between the two mid-post without noticeable seperation.

Also, the save DC on Cone of Cold is not that high (20).  Any scout-type that doesn't have a Reflex save of at least 15 by 10 isn't going to succeed at anything.  That's a 75% chance to take no damage.