Author Topic: Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?  (Read 100320 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

veekie

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 9034
  • WARNING: Homing Miko
Re: Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?
« Reply #80 on: February 05, 2011, 02:12:33 PM »
The tricky bit is you don't generally know what your players are going to do, even if they're obliging(which is a bit unlikely if they're pulling CoP shenanigans) about sticking to the rails. Hell, my lot are as fine a bunch as they come in and I can barely predict more than 1 encounter ahead. They can pick up on the oddest details.

Of course, as a DM theres always the option of never giving a pleasant future(since its easier to ensure your players face a bad scenario than a good one), and spawning an encounter every time they literally ask about one. But thats overly antagonistic IMO.
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."

snow_white

  • Ring-Tailed Lemur
  • **
  • Posts: 20
    • Email
Re: Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?
« Reply #81 on: February 05, 2011, 02:39:01 PM »
Oh yeah, but with the casting duration, spell level and how long it lasts it can be a bloody annoyance to have enough.
Rather use Summon Elemental and have an air/earth elemental do it

Chain of Eyes also has a duration of 1 hour/caster level, so it's nice that way.

Other Good Solution: Bind Malphas. Use a dove.  ;) (Have your psicrystal take Bind Vestige / Practiced Binder, and also mindsight if you don't want to spare the feats yourself.  :p )

(Minor difficulty: A psicrystal may need slight assistance with drawing a seal, and does not generally have a shoulder for the dove to appear on.)

Or bind Zceryll for mindsight and all the other goodies

Akalsaris

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1143
    • Email
Re: Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?
« Reply #82 on: February 05, 2011, 05:04:01 PM »
So it's been about 2 years since I've seen an acronym used in 3.5 discussions that I didn't recognize, so I have to ask - what the hell is CoP?

Also, as a sidenote, what does 'Hi Welcome' mean in the context that Sunic Flames uses it in?  Is it welcoming people to the forum, or is it supposed to be sarcastic, or what? I see him use it all the time on this forum, and I never really 'get' what he's trying to do with the phrase.

Bozwevial

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 4497
  • Developing a relaxed attitude to danger.
Re: Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?
« Reply #83 on: February 05, 2011, 05:07:00 PM »
So it's been about 2 years since I've seen an acronym used in 3.5 discussions that I didn't recognize, so I have to ask - what the hell is CoP?
CoP is shorthand for Contact Other Plane.

Midnight_v

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 2660
  • Dulce et decorum est pro alea mori.
Re: Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?
« Reply #84 on: February 05, 2011, 05:13:49 PM »
Quote
'Hi Welcome'
and I'm sad that this keeps coming up.
Is an internet meme. Just type it into google he'll theres a wiki for it, but
it is meant as a bit of sarcasm. Take it to mean "You're not actually worth adressing"...
Its kinda nonsensical.
\\\"Disentegrate.\\\" \\\"Gust of wind.\\\" \\\"Now Can we PLEASE resume saving the world?\\\"

X-Codes

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 3941
Re: Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?
« Reply #85 on: February 05, 2011, 05:50:15 PM »
Quote
'Hi Welcome'
and I'm sad that this keeps coming up.
Is an internet meme. Just type it into google he'll theres a wiki for it, but
it is meant as a bit of sarcasm. Take it to mean "You're not actually worth adressing"...
Its kinda nonsensical.
It's ironic is what it is.

The tricky bit is you don't generally know what your players are going to do, even if they're obliging(which is a bit unlikely if they're pulling CoP shenanigans) about sticking to the rails. Hell, my lot are as fine a bunch as they come in and I can barely predict more than 1 encounter ahead. They can pick up on the oddest details.

Of course, as a DM theres always the option of never giving a pleasant future(since its easier to ensure your players face a bad scenario than a good one), and spawning an encounter every time they literally ask about one. But thats overly antagonistic IMO.
Actually, I think this is amusing.  Have them contact the same Semi-divine Archfiend every time, and have said archfiend say whatever he can to scare the shit out of them.  As intelligent as they are, I'm sure they'd have though of that to make the best of being annoyed my a lousy material-plane Wizard whose soul isn't even worth stealing.

Akalsaris

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1143
    • Email
Re: Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?
« Reply #86 on: February 05, 2011, 06:02:45 PM »
So it's been about 2 years since I've seen an acronym used in 3.5 discussions that I didn't recognize, so I have to ask - what the hell is CoP?
CoP is shorthand for Contact Other Plane.

Thanks Boz.  I've never had anyone use it in my games, so I often forget the spell exists.  And looking at it now, it hardly seems a fail-proof plan. 

Quote
'Hi Welcome'
and I'm sad that this keeps coming up.
Is an internet meme. Just type it into google he'll theres a wiki for it, but
it is meant as a bit of sarcasm. Take it to mean "You're not actually worth adressing"...
Its kinda nonsensical.

Ah, I see.  So its a snarky response like 'lolwut' or 'what is this i don't even'.  That makes more sense.

Bozwevial

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 4497
  • Developing a relaxed attitude to danger.
Re: Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?
« Reply #87 on: February 05, 2011, 06:12:30 PM »
So it's been about 2 years since I've seen an acronym used in 3.5 discussions that I didn't recognize, so I have to ask - what the hell is CoP?
CoP is shorthand for Contact Other Plane.

Thanks Boz.  I've never had anyone use it in my games, so I often forget the spell exists.  And looking at it now, it hardly seems a fail-proof plan. 
With careful wording and repeated castings, it's not difficult to get the chance of failure down to a very small number. This of course assumes the DM runs the spell strictly by its description and doesn't change things to make it more sensible.

JaronK

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 4039
Re: Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?
« Reply #88 on: February 05, 2011, 07:22:19 PM »
As for Mindsight, it's in the same book as Darkstalker. You could fairly argue that they didn't take into account Touchsight or Lifesight, even though I'm fairly sure those were published before because they are different, non core books. But Mindsight is in the same book. And it isn't mentioned at all. And not all Aberrations are psionics heavy. Some are. In any case it doesn't take Touchsight into account either. In fact Touchsight is basically Blindsight by a different name, which only makes a difference because you get to bypass Darkstalker.

Come to think of it, I'm not sure if anything blocks Mindsight. You could at least dodge the others by being an incorporeal undead (not really viable, but it's there). Mind Blank might, but then telepathy range = Mindsight range, and I don't recall seeing a Mind Affecting tag anywhere in there.

Touchsight has a limited duration and is only available to a small number of enemies.  As such, while it's basically impossible to stop (being Incorporeal or Ethereal might help, that's about it) it's rarely an issue.  If someone casts it, fall back (Shadow Jaunt?) and wait for it to drop.  If you haven't given warning of your presence to begin with, there's no reason for it to be up.

As for Mindsight, the same book that introduced Mindsight and Darkstalker also mentioned Mind Flayers disliking undead because, for one reason, they couldn't be psionically detected via similar mind based senses.  This suggests that immune to mind affecting was supposed to block Mindsight, though this is never stated by RAW.  If you play by that given RAI, then being Necropolitan (which you want to avoid Lifesight anyway) hides you from Mindsight as well.  If not, make sure to take Mindsight yourself (Mindbender 1 qualifies easily, and you can get into that with Factotum) and you've got a guaranteed way of knowing where absolutely everything is within range.  Plus, Mindsight itself should be relatively rare.

Lifesight is a good reason to be Necropolitan.  You want it yourself as a stealth character, and you want to avoid it if used by others.  Combine that with the reduced MAD from being able to dump Con (something all stealth characters like) and possible Mindsight immunity (consult your DM on that one) and it's a wonderfully obvious choice.

Quote
Also, in general stealth is more for the enemies than for you. Both because more HD = more skills, and because a group of monsters is more likely to have a stealth bent than a team of characters. So you can have whole stealthy encounters. The other side of more HD = more skills is that spotting them is harder, but that's what the aforementioned sensory abilities are for. As any of my players can attest to, they are auto wins against stealth, even optimized stealthers.

Lifesight is easily avoided, Mindsight might be, and Touchsight has a limited duration.  It's not the biggest of issues, by any stretch.  And unless you're heavily optimizing the monsters, there's no excuse for a stealther being out skilled on stealth.  Whispergnome Factotum with Int and Dex 16 is already running around with +24 to hide and +20 to move silently before even looking at ranks or items at level 3... and don't forget the penalties to spot and listen at range.

JaronK
« Last Edit: February 05, 2011, 07:26:37 PM by JaronK »

Sunic_Flames

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 4782
  • The Crusader of Logic.
Re: Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?
« Reply #89 on: February 05, 2011, 07:30:51 PM »
So it's been about 2 years since I've seen an acronym used in 3.5 discussions that I didn't recognize, so I have to ask - what the hell is CoP?

Also, as a sidenote, what does 'Hi Welcome' mean in the context that Sunic Flames uses it in?  Is it welcoming people to the forum, or is it supposed to be sarcastic, or what? I see him use it all the time on this forum, and I never really 'get' what he's trying to do with the phrase.

Basically the implication is both that the person is new (even if they aren't) and that they are unworthy of any constructive or useful response (which is why it is both short, and deliberately has poor grammar).

As for Touchsight, if you move out of range too late, you're already detected. The enemy either annihilates you, or fully buffs and annihilates your whole party. Either way. Assuming you're even aware they detected you. Psionics, having no components of any kind except an easily suppressed display are great for doing things covertly after all. So they could seem to not notice you, and really be doing any number of things.
Smiting Imbeciles since 1985.

If you hear this music, run.

And don't forget:


There is no greater contribution than Hi Welcome.

Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.

IP proofing and avoiding being CAPed OR - how to make characters relevant in the long term.

Friends don't let friends be Short Bus Hobos.

[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

bkdubs123

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 2724
    • Email
Re: Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?
« Reply #90 on: February 05, 2011, 07:48:56 PM »
How many DMs other than, from what I can gather, Sunic, run every single monster and NPC in their campaigns as heavily optimized, extraordinarily intelligent, unnaturally paranoid, full casters? Because trying to argue that mundane stealth is worthless because of a combination of spamming CoP and usage of Mindsight, Lifesight, AND Touchsight implies that every adventure in every campaign ran by any DM does this all the time in every encounter. Which, I shouldn't have to point out, is ludicrous beyond belief.

Lycanthromancer

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 4003
    • Email
Re: Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?
« Reply #91 on: February 05, 2011, 08:00:51 PM »
How many DMs other than, from what I can gather, Sunic, run every single monster and NPC in their campaigns as heavily optimized, extraordinarily intelligent, unnaturally paranoid, full casters? Because trying to argue that mundane stealth is worthless because of a combination of spamming CoP and usage of Mindsight, Lifesight, AND Touchsight implies that every adventure in every campaign ran by any DM does this all the time in every encounter. Which, I shouldn't have to point out, is ludicrous beyond belief.
Well, this is basically the default for wizards, illithids, psions, dragons, and anything else with a reasonable Int score.

But then, if that's all you're going up against you're pretty fubar'd anyway.
[spoiler]Masculine men like masculine things. Masculine men are masculine. Therefore, liking masculine men is masculine.

I dare anyone to find a hole in that logic.
______________________________________
[/spoiler]I'm a writer. These are my stories. Some are even SFW! (Warning: Mostly Gay.)
My awesome poster collection. (Warning, some are NSFW.)
Agita's awesome poster collection.
[spoiler]
+1 Lycanthromancer
Which book is Lycanthromancer in?
Lyca ... is in the book. Yes he is.
 :D
shit.. concerning psionics optimization, lycan IS the book
[/spoiler]

JaronK

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 4039
Re: Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?
« Reply #92 on: February 05, 2011, 08:28:17 PM »
Basically the implication is both that the person is new (even if they aren't) and that they are unworthy of any constructive or useful response (which is why it is both short, and deliberately has poor grammar).

That may be the intent, but that's not the implication anyone else reads...

Quote
As for Touchsight, if you move out of range too late, you're already detected. The enemy either annihilates you, or fully buffs and annihilates your whole party. Either way. Assuming you're even aware they detected you. Psionics, having no components of any kind except an easily suppressed display are great for doing things covertly after all. So they could seem to not notice you, and really be doing any number of things.

And why, precisely, did he cast Touchsight in the first place?  Do you have characters running around with persistent touchsight up all the time (which I'm not even sure is possible)?  If he doesn't know you're there, he's not going to cast it, so that's irrelevant anyway.  Having touchsight up all the time arbitrarily is exactly like a DM having giant antimagic fields up all the time and then claiming Wizards suck.  Sure you can do it by arbitrarily invoking rule 0, but it makes no sense and shouldn't actually be an option any enemy short of epic types ought to have, and you certainly shouldn't assume it's an issue in the vast majority of games.

Seriously, Necropolitan Whispergnome with Darkstalker is enough to outstealth almost anyone, if you put any real investment into stealth (and not even that big one one, it's not like it costs a lot).  Skill based stealth is one area where mundanes actually shine. 

JaronK

Sunic_Flames

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 4782
  • The Crusader of Logic.
Re: Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?
« Reply #93 on: February 05, 2011, 08:30:26 PM »
How many DMs other than, from what I can gather, Sunic, run every single monster and NPC in their campaigns as heavily optimized, extraordinarily intelligent, unnaturally paranoid, full casters? Because trying to argue that mundane stealth is worthless because of a combination of spamming CoP and usage of Mindsight, Lifesight, AND Touchsight implies that every adventure in every campaign ran by any DM does this all the time in every encounter. Which, I shouldn't have to point out, is ludicrous beyond belief.

1: COP is an example of Divination, aka the kind of recon that actually accomplishes something other than character death. It is not the beginning and the end of it. So stop mentioning it as if they were.
2: Most enemies do have above average intellects. All of them live in Darwin's Paradise. Just like you do. Which means it isn't "unnaturally paranoid", it's "par for the course".
3: Most monsters can cast spells.
4: Humanoids that aren't full casters, and are NPCs are complete wastes of space, even when selecting the best non full casting classes. Lack of WBL is a bitch like that.
5: Since every example has assumed mid or high levels, on top of all that you have the little fact that you don't fucking survive this long if you don't take precautions.
6: When you get caught, be it by an auto win button, because enemies are better at skills than you, or whatever you're now alone, with an encounter meant for the whole party. Hope you have a new character ready, because this one is fucked.

So let's look at some actual situations from an actual game:

Hm...

Situation 1: PCs pick a fight with a guy, and his very visible guards. They get ambushed because there are more guards hidden. Said guards are auto spotted by Mindsight once they appear. The only reason they weren't exposed on the spot is lack of LoE, aka they were behind a low wall, and therefore couldn't see anything. As soon as they popped up...

Had the party used divinations, it'd have been not too hard to figure out. Had they scouted normally, the scout would have utterly failed to see the hidden ambushers, and would have likely been spotted by the same. Not to mention the very obvious guards would have quickly gotten annoyed if they saw some fool sneaking around.

And any scout that gets busted gets beaten down by 4 chain guards, still has to deal with the ambushers, and also has to deal with the main guy. All at once. I take that back. Saying he's dead in 1 round implies he'd survive the entire thing.

Situation 2: Single enemy is well hidden, and lying in wait. Said enemy is auto spotted by Lifesight, else he'd have not been spotted at all.

Divinations wouldn't have helped too much, though it depends on which.

Scouting would have resulted in the scout being spotted, and not spotting in turn. His first clue something was wrong would be having flying summons, who were formerly invisible appear surrounding him. Oh yeah, and this attack could be Dimensional Anchor, so fuck you Dimension Door, aka the only viable means of escape. The party noticed the problem sooner. The party was also all there.
Smiting Imbeciles since 1985.

If you hear this music, run.

And don't forget:


There is no greater contribution than Hi Welcome.

Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.

IP proofing and avoiding being CAPed OR - how to make characters relevant in the long term.

Friends don't let friends be Short Bus Hobos.

[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

bkdubs123

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 2724
    • Email
Re: Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?
« Reply #94 on: February 05, 2011, 08:30:43 PM »
How many DMs other than, from what I can gather, Sunic, run every single monster and NPC in their campaigns as heavily optimized, extraordinarily intelligent, unnaturally paranoid, full casters? Because trying to argue that mundane stealth is worthless because of a combination of spamming CoP and usage of Mindsight, Lifesight, AND Touchsight implies that every adventure in every campaign ran by any DM does this all the time in every encounter. Which, I shouldn't have to point out, is ludicrous beyond belief.
Well, this is basically the default for wizards, illithids, psions, dragons, and anything else with a reasonable Int score.

I'd grant you that for SOME Wizards, Illithids, Psions, and Dragons, but definitely not "anything else with a reasonable Int score." Seriously, even if all of your campaigns are about fighting an unholy alliance of Wizards, Psions, Dragons, and Illithids and EVERY member of that alliance is constantly running around spamming CoP and with Mind/Life/Touchsight up how boring are your games?

But, I know, I know, spicing things up and actually attempting to optimize NPCs and monsters around personality types instead of just being as uber as I possibly can is not only coddling my players but playing the game wrong. :rollseyes

Quote
But then, if that's all you're going up against you're pretty fubar'd anyway.

Right, but then from what I can gather Sunic only plays campaigns with players who play Tier 1 characters. And that's fine, and in his campaigns, of course mundane stealth is completely laughably useless. But there are other types of games that still play the game as designed, without taking any house rules into account, and still pay attention to rule as written in which mundane stealth can be perfectly usable. No, not in every situation or encounter, but certainly in as many encounters that an intelligent player would like to use it.

Lycanthromancer

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 4003
    • Email
Re: Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?
« Reply #95 on: February 05, 2011, 08:51:39 PM »
And why, precisely, did he cast Touchsight in the first place?  Do you have characters running around with persistent touchsight up all the time (which I'm not even sure is possible)?  If he doesn't know you're there, he's not going to cast it, so that's irrelevant anyway.  Having touchsight up all the time arbitrarily is exactly like a DM having giant antimagic fields up all the time and then claiming Wizards suck.  Sure you can do it by arbitrarily invoking rule 0, but it makes no sense and shouldn't actually be an option any enemy short of epic types ought to have, and you certainly shouldn't assume it's an issue in the vast majority of games.
Not to be argumentative, but it's easy to get touchsight up 24/7. A fist-full of +1 manifesting arrows, for instance, or a few levels in crystal master.

But regardless, you do have some good points otherwise.

How many DMs other than, from what I can gather, Sunic, run every single monster and NPC in their campaigns as heavily optimized, extraordinarily intelligent, unnaturally paranoid, full casters? Because trying to argue that mundane stealth is worthless because of a combination of spamming CoP and usage of Mindsight, Lifesight, AND Touchsight implies that every adventure in every campaign ran by any DM does this all the time in every encounter. Which, I shouldn't have to point out, is ludicrous beyond belief.
Well, this is basically the default for wizards, illithids, psions, dragons, and anything else with a reasonable Int score.

I'd grant you that for SOME Wizards, Illithids, Psions, and Dragons, but definitely not "anything else with a reasonable Int score." Seriously, even if all of your campaigns are about fighting an unholy alliance of Wizards, Psions, Dragons, and Illithids and EVERY member of that alliance is constantly running around spamming CoP and with Mind/Life/Touchsight up how boring are your games?
Okay, 'reasonable' is unreasonable. But anyone with 14+ Int should be pretty damned intelligent, especially with a decent Wis.

But, I know, I know, spicing things up and actually attempting to optimize NPCs and monsters around personality types instead of just being as uber as I possibly can is not only coddling my players but playing the game wrong. :rollseyes
Hey, don't look at me. I didn't say ur doin it rong.

Quote
But then, if that's all you're going up against you're pretty fubar'd anyway.

Right, but then from what I can gather Sunic only plays campaigns with players who play Tier 1 characters. And that's fine, and in his campaigns, of course mundane stealth is completely laughably useless. But there are other types of games that still play the game as designed, without taking any house rules into account, and still pay attention to rule as written in which mundane stealth can be perfectly usable. No, not in every situation or encounter, but certainly in as many encounters that an intelligent player would like to use it.
True enough.
[spoiler]Masculine men like masculine things. Masculine men are masculine. Therefore, liking masculine men is masculine.

I dare anyone to find a hole in that logic.
______________________________________
[/spoiler]I'm a writer. These are my stories. Some are even SFW! (Warning: Mostly Gay.)
My awesome poster collection. (Warning, some are NSFW.)
Agita's awesome poster collection.
[spoiler]
+1 Lycanthromancer
Which book is Lycanthromancer in?
Lyca ... is in the book. Yes he is.
 :D
shit.. concerning psionics optimization, lycan IS the book
[/spoiler]

JaronK

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 4039
Re: Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?
« Reply #96 on: February 05, 2011, 08:51:57 PM »
How many DMs other than, from what I can gather, Sunic, run every single monster and NPC in their campaigns as heavily optimized, extraordinarily intelligent, unnaturally paranoid, full casters? Because trying to argue that mundane stealth is worthless because of a combination of spamming CoP and usage of Mindsight, Lifesight, AND Touchsight implies that every adventure in every campaign ran by any DM does this all the time in every encounter. Which, I shouldn't have to point out, is ludicrous beyond belief.

1: COP is an example of Divination, aka the kind of recon that actually accomplishes something other than character death. It is not the beginning and the end of it. So stop mentioning it as if they were.

Let's use the sample stealther I gave (Necropolitan Whispergnome Factotum 3+ with Darkstalker and Lifesight, who probably at least has Shadow Jaunt (either via the cheap magic gloves or via a Swordsage level or two).  Could be higher level, could have other feats, but this is sufficient.  Assume he bothered to boost his hide score appropriate to the resources in his campaign.  According to you, this would be instant character death.

Quote
5: Since every example has assumed mid or high levels, on top of all that you have the little fact that you don't fucking survive this long if you don't take precautions.

I was using level 3ish, personally.

Quote
6: When you get caught, be it by an auto win button, because enemies are better at skills than you, or whatever you're now alone, with an encounter meant for the whole party. Hope you have a new character ready, because this one is fucked.

Or you teleported back towards your party in the first round (because you bothered to have a decent initiative) and rehid or otherwise evaced.

Quote
Situation 1: PCs pick a fight with a guy, and his very visible guards. They get ambushed because there are more guards hidden. Said guards are auto spotted by Mindsight once they appear. The only reason they weren't exposed on the spot is lack of LoE, aka they were behind a low wall, and therefore couldn't see anything. As soon as they popped up...

Why was Mindsight trumped by a low wall?  Did the scout fail to check the obvious nearby ambush locations before the party randomly picked a fight?  Why?  And due to Lifesight, he'd have seen the beacons shining behind said low wall.  Not to mention, if the party is taking someone down somewhere where there might be reinforcements, casting Silence first is SOP.  If those guards are so hidden that they are completely out of LoE and not glowing, they don't hear anything and the guy is dead.

Quote
Had the party used divinations, it'd have been not too hard to figure out. Had they scouted normally, the scout would have utterly failed to see the hidden ambushers, and would have likely been spotted by the same. Not to mention the very obvious guards would have quickly gotten annoyed if they saw some fool sneaking around.

If the guards had Mindblank (since you're assuming higher levels) then the divinations auto-failed.  Even nondetection means a possibility of failure.  Remember, you're the guy who thinks Touchsight might be up randomly, so Nondtection seems more plausible (due to longer duration).  However, the scout saw them glowing right away (lifesight) and instantly knew about them (and if he's clever, the party first killed the ambushers with a silence field up because they're not in LOS of the main target... the main target now doesn't even know his guys are dead).

Quote
And any scout that gets busted gets beaten down by 4 chain guards, still has to deal with the ambushers, and also has to deal with the main guy. All at once. I take that back. Saying he's dead in 1 round implies he'd survive the entire thing.

Why does the scout always lose initiative?  This is precisely why I always make sure my scout characters have great initiative (it's a good idea anyway).  And heck, the best skillmonkey class (Factotum) even has built in Int to initiative on a dex and int based class... and the rest of the scouts are dex based at least.  +1 Eager Armor Spikes of Warning are standard gear.  The way you describe games you're dead anyway if you don't go first, so why is this scout not covering this angle?

Quote
Situation 2: Single enemy is well hidden, and lying in wait. Said enemy is auto spotted by Lifesight, else he'd have not been spotted at all.

Or Mindsight.  Or, you know, a really high spot score.  Though situations like this are why my parties often pull stuff like journeying to locations in an Enveloping Pit carried by the stealth character as he sneaks along, or flies along.  Choke points are carefully checked for obvious reasons.

Quote
Scouting would have resulted in the scout being spotted, and not spotting in turn.

Why?  Why can this guy automatically see the virtually impossible to see scout?  Has no one in your games actually tried to have a decent hide score?  This makes absolutely no sense.  And why isn't this guy Mindblanked if he's a single ambusher at the levels you're talking about, thus rendering divinations worthless?

JaronK

JaronK

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 4039
Re: Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?
« Reply #97 on: February 05, 2011, 08:54:41 PM »
Not to be argumentative, but it's easy to get touchsight up 24/7. A fist-full of +1 manifesting arrows, for instance, or a few levels in crystal master.

I feel like at the point of "he has a fist full of +1 mainfesting arrows which he uses to keep touchsight up all day" you're basically just optimizing against stealthers, and working pretty darn hard at it.  If stealth is so useless, I don't see why people would have to do that all day.  This is still awfully close to the "the entire dungeon is covered in antimagic!" reason for why Wizard's suck.

But thanks, because I really couldn't figure out any way to keep touchsight up all day at mid levels.

JaronK

Lycanthromancer

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 4003
    • Email
Re: Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?
« Reply #98 on: February 05, 2011, 08:58:37 PM »
Not to be argumentative, but it's easy to get touchsight up 24/7. A fist-full of +1 manifesting arrows, for instance, or a few levels in crystal master.

I feel like at the point of "he has a fist full of +1 mainfesting arrows which he uses to keep touchsight up all day" you're basically just optimizing against stealthers, and working pretty darn hard at it.  If stealth is so useless, I don't see why people would have to do that all day.  This is still awfully close to the "the entire dungeon is covered in antimagic!" reason for why Wizard's suck.

But thanks, because I really couldn't figure out any way to keep touchsight up all day at mid levels.

JaronK
This is why I'm the go-to guy for psionics pstuff. :p
[spoiler]Masculine men like masculine things. Masculine men are masculine. Therefore, liking masculine men is masculine.

I dare anyone to find a hole in that logic.
______________________________________
[/spoiler]I'm a writer. These are my stories. Some are even SFW! (Warning: Mostly Gay.)
My awesome poster collection. (Warning, some are NSFW.)
Agita's awesome poster collection.
[spoiler]
+1 Lycanthromancer
Which book is Lycanthromancer in?
Lyca ... is in the book. Yes he is.
 :D
shit.. concerning psionics optimization, lycan IS the book
[/spoiler]

bkdubs123

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 2724
    • Email
Re: Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?
« Reply #99 on: February 05, 2011, 09:22:53 PM »
Hey, don't look at me. I didn't say ur doin it rong.

Oh, I know you didn't, I was just covering that base before someone else jumped on me. Just having 12+ Int doesn't make a monster brilliant, paranoid, and requiring of heavy optimization. And I just love that "all monsters and NPCs without fullcasting are worthless" and thus throwing them at your players is codding them and playing the game wrong.

Most of the time Sunic doesn't bother me. He's reasonably intelligent, well-informed, and an experienced optimizer. The thing that sucks though is that with all of those good, respectable points he seems to assume that if any given NPC/Monster could possibly have access to any number of powerful, often whole archetype nullifying, spells, not only does that NPC/Monster use them, he uses ALL of them, all the time, at-will. Well, that and anyone not playing the game exactly like him is a fuckwit and plays the game wrong.

Hi Welcome