Author Topic: Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?  (Read 102908 times)

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X-Codes

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Re: Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?
« Reply #60 on: February 05, 2011, 06:39:48 AM »
I have to say that such is the single biggest failing of Stealth in D&D: the role of the solo-stealther is inherently contradictory to the way the game is meant to be played, and yet is somehow simultaneously the way the game was meant to be played.  (If this makes no sense, it's because it's almost midnight here, and I JUST got home.)

If you can apply Stealth (and related skills) in such a way that it involves/benefits the entire party, then it's really a great thing to have.

Kajhera

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Re: Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?
« Reply #61 on: February 05, 2011, 09:09:02 AM »
I have to say that such is the single biggest failing of Stealth in D&D: the role of the solo-stealther is inherently contradictory to the way the game is meant to be played, and yet is somehow simultaneously the way the game was meant to be played.  (If this makes no sense, it's because it's almost midnight here, and I JUST got home.)

If you can apply Stealth (and related skills) in such a way that it involves/benefits the entire party, then it's really a great thing to have.

But if you're the dark whisper gnome swordsage who sneaks ahead and negates all the encounters (whether by stabbing, seducing, or befriending them) the other party may start resenting you.

That's one of the other stealthy characters we've had ... who didn't work out quite so well from a party perspective. Of course, this started getting into the epic levels so the local vampire dread necromancer was really able to make the universe his bitch, though he only took a nation-sized chunk of his own and ran it as a bizarre utopia; the sorcerer lost interest in things other than his awakened rock and personal demiplane; and the .... half-fey just wanted as big a sword as possible.

It was at lower levels this was particularly annoying. At higher levels somehow winning the heart of Ashardalon's daughter may be as good a policy move as ripping out Ashardalon's 'heart' and reanimating him as an intelligent undead with all his memories remaining.  :lmao

...on that note I still need a good substitute for the Ashardalon vestige, because he's still quite present, and I forget what the last person I asked for one said (though it was quite reasonable).

Sunic_Flames

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Re: Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?
« Reply #62 on: February 05, 2011, 09:23:44 AM »

1: Hi Welcome.

2: There are 3 enemies, and each have a 25% chance to spot you every time they attempt. That means every round they get to try (read: every round you are there scouting) there is a 60.625% chance you are spotted. Since detection = death, and one round is the minimum type possible, it's clear to see that even under the best case scenario, in which the stealther has a bit of an advantage there is still a greater than even chance he is not coming back. Treantmonk fails a lot, but when he referred to the scout as "the Corpse" he was absolutely right. Would you prefer 5%? Fine, the detection chance per round is about 1 in 7. Now consider that it likely takes you more than one round to get in, look around, and get out and the only conclusion that can be drawn is that I am exactly right - you either throw the enemy straight off the RNG by having no chance to detect you, or you auto fail. If there's more than three enemies, that's even more chances to fail.

3: I'm sure the enemy won't get suspicious about any fog or smoke coming up out of nowhere. I'm sure they will never mow their lawn. At least pretend you are serious.

Ok, seriously, without CoP (because all I'm ever going to answer to that as a GM is "maybe"), how do you scout ALL THE FUCKING DAY with magic? Because that's just the time when not being able to can really fuck you up. For instance, sometimes even a high-level wizard will have to walk to places. Well... not necessarily walk, but, NOT teleport. And if just for the reason that he doesn't know yet where he's going.

Well for starters, you get a non douchebag DM, who doesn't randomly herp derp and make spells not function as described. Once you have completed this step, and it might require one or more folding chairs, here is the most basic measure you take:

*Wizard writes a list of spells, the length is equal to the number of questions he can ask - 3*

"Which of the spells on this list will be most important today?"

Repeat for second, third, etc until you finish the list.

"What is the most dangerous opponent I will face today?"

"What is the second most dangerous opponent I will face today?"

"Will I be ambushed today?"

Might need a second cast for follow up questions, and to get the 88% right answer to something more acceptable. Still far better, and safer than sending in the corpse.

Quote
It's just like this: Every time when when I've played, and there was no scout, we were ambushed. Every time I've GMed, and the PCs didn't scout (well, they also didn't do other things, but considering there were often days of travelling involved, and the levels weren't that high, there wasn't that much they could do..) they were ambushed, too.

So, short of playing a Binder, how do you ALWAYS know what's on the road ahead of you?

Translation: Herp derp, I don't like that the PCs aren't scouting, so I'm going to jump them. I'm also going to pretend the scout won't get automatically annihilated if he tries.

Also, it's funny how every "stealth isn't worthless, honest" thread assumes that all guards are completely fucking incompetent. Because the moment they get remotely competent, or try at all you start losing all the time. This is especially true when the "completely standard scout" uses the very same things that auto negate them when used against them.

For example:

Mindsight: Auto lose, Darkstalker does not block, anything with telepathy will have this if allowed. No workaround.
Touchsight: Auto lose, Darkstalker does not block, anything with psionic ability and a high enough power level will have this. Only workaround is being incorporeal.
Lifesight: Auto lose, Darkstalker does not block, any undead will have this. Only workaround is being undead yourself.

Some of them get around one of these, but not all three. And that's just the auto lose stuff that gets you even after you try.
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Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

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The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?
« Reply #63 on: February 05, 2011, 09:35:02 AM »
Well for starters, you get a non douchebag DM, who doesn't randomly herp derp and make spells not function as described.
Nothing random about nerfing the most broken spell in the game.

Or are you saying that DMs should never prevent broken stuff from being used ever?
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Re: Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?
« Reply #64 on: February 05, 2011, 09:36:55 AM »
COP does not come anywhere close, try again.
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There is no greater contribution than Hi Welcome.

Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.

IP proofing and avoiding being CAPed OR - how to make characters relevant in the long term.

Friends don't let friends be Short Bus Hobos.

[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?
« Reply #65 on: February 05, 2011, 09:41:39 AM »
COP does not come anywhere close, try again.
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If the answer is "false", I say hello, and I succeed at everything I do forever.

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veekie

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Re: Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?
« Reply #66 on: February 05, 2011, 10:21:14 AM »
COP does not come anywhere close, try again.
Well it might not be broken in the power sense, but it's broken when used in the campaign sense. Not many campaign premises stay intact when it's actually used as intended.

Plus for DMs who're high on improvisation you get some serious headaches with reliability.
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wotmaniac

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Re: Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?
« Reply #67 on: February 05, 2011, 11:02:09 AM »
in my experience, CoP usefulness/practicality is inversely proportionate to to how much sandboxing is going on.  If you're just running straight through a module exactly as written, then it's a must-have.  However, if you're going total sandbox, it's usually gonna be vague, and at times completely unusable (from a meta-game standpoint).
All in all, I usually find it to be more headache than it's worth; and often find myself having to be as vague and subjective as possible, just so I don't end-up fucking something up or railroading some b.s. (resorting to a lot of "maybe"'s, "unanswerable"'s and other-deity intervention) -- not because I'm trying to be a dick or don't know what the hell I'm doing, but because my players are that unpredictable, inventive, and thorough.
Thus is the dangers of running a sandbox style game.

As to Sunic's enumerated set of specific questions -- in a railroaded module that works great; however, the more sandbox you get, the more useless those types of questions get (well, that is, unless you want to spend 1/2 the session playing Logistics & Dragons prior to casting that spell so that the DM can actually answer your shit .... and still, you need to be fairly predictable as a player and assume that your DM's perception of things matches yours).

[spoiler]
If you stop ignoring 289 pages telling what the intent is to stretch "more power" in your own god complexion of your interpretation trumps all to cover ability adjustments from aging then I will ignore a quarter page of rules that exist within a sidebar.
I think in this case the grammar is less important than whether the Str and Dex bonus provided to your created undead scales.

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veekie

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Re: Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?
« Reply #68 on: February 05, 2011, 11:21:13 AM »
^^
Dresden Files RPG has a cure for COP like shenanigans for sandbox games, basically the future vision is generated by the player(rolled against a hidden DC), and if the player succeeds, the future is real and coming(within limits). The how, and why is still up to the DM.

Personally, I'd make a few issues for divination magic like COP.
-Any spell that invokes some extraplanar entity can only involve information that the entity can have access to on the spot, and is accurate only as far as the being can be certain of(that is to say, the percentile is to determine if the being gives up all it knows). This necessarily means that questions regarding the future are officially uncertain.
-Any spell that can directly divine the future divines the future as it would be without intervention from one who knows the future. Changing the preconditions of the vision would set it back to Uncertain. This is for linear games and adventures.
-Alternately for sandbox games, the future divination defines the future, but only one specific narrow aspect of it(one specific scene, sliced out of time and context).

On topic, it can be arguable that Darkstalker works on Mindsight and the like. This is RAI rather than RAW(and thus not a reliable claim) but given that its intended to use against aberrations, who're traditionally psionics heavy, Mindsight and Touchsight are common enough expectations to cover.

The thing with sneaking(used as intended, separating the sneak from the party) is probably that it is extremely difficult to provide thorough enough coverage to prevent stealth entrance to an area. Its hideously effective if an entire party uses it with magical support, but there lies the rub. Solo stealth doesn't work.
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."

wotmaniac

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Re: Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?
« Reply #69 on: February 05, 2011, 11:43:47 AM »
oh, that's I how I usually run it -- which definitely makes it far from any kind of "I win" button.

[spoiler]
If you stop ignoring 289 pages telling what the intent is to stretch "more power" in your own god complexion of your interpretation trumps all to cover ability adjustments from aging then I will ignore a quarter page of rules that exist within a sidebar.
I think in this case the grammar is less important than whether the Str and Dex bonus provided to your created undead scales.

Greenbound Summoning RAI
Expanded Gestalt
More Savage Progressions[/spoiler]
Report any wrongs I have done here.

Midnight_v

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Re: Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?
« Reply #70 on: February 05, 2011, 11:52:27 AM »
Quote
On topic, it can be arguable that Darkstalker works on Mindsight and the like. This is RAI rather than RAW(and thus not a reliable claim) but given that its intended to use against aberrations, who're traditionally psionics heavy, Mindsight and Touchsight are common enough expectations to cover.
I'm think no, that it pretty much does what it says and that its intended to just that. The thing is you're correct that that came out of an abberation book. THE SAME abberation book, and mindsight is tucked away in the section of the Tsocori, I always view that as an intentional "Gotcha" for people fapping of to darkstalker while they think no one can detect them. So yeah thats pretty bad, rai interpretation attempt imho cause the writers theoretically made one feat knowing the other existed and specifically didn't call out mindsight. . . and well there's lifesight but here's the thing with that.
  If you try to play it that way and darkstalker foils all then theoretically you really can be totally undetectable through the proper optimization. Thus sneak around Shocktrooper/leap attacking people in the suprise round with pounce in some cases, or steal the dragons horde out from under him (he'll just wonder what the hell is going on with my horde) that would actually be broken in a way also. So no, and thats one of many reasons RAI arguments tend to suck so bad, intent is hard to determine in a lot of cases, but if you look at the evidence I think its with me this time.
Lifesight is a pretty good one too.
Quote
Its hideously effective if an entire party uses it with magical support, but there lies the rub. Solo stealth doesn't work.  
Hmm... yeah I'm getting that too, you get a damn ghost recon team together and it could be pretty damn hard to deal with, since they're not going to deal with monsters when they're prepared like ever. Still, optimization begets optimization, so you know it could still be challenged likely without "I see you!!! style shennigans" especially with stuff like filling the corridor with AoE's or hell a burst of Mindaffecting. Its alot of challenge left I guess.
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Sunic_Flames

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Re: Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?
« Reply #71 on: February 05, 2011, 12:12:44 PM »
COP does not come anywhere close, try again.
Well it might not be broken in the power sense, but it's broken when used in the campaign sense. Not many campaign premises stay intact when it's actually used as intended.

Plus for DMs who're high on improvisation you get some serious headaches with reliability.

That's because a number of DMs utterly fail to take into account the game changes fundamentally every few levels, and as a result level 9 abilities, such as COP destroy level 1 adventures.

As for Mindsight, it's in the same book as Darkstalker. You could fairly argue that they didn't take into account Touchsight or Lifesight, even though I'm fairly sure those were published before because they are different, non core books. But Mindsight is in the same book. And it isn't mentioned at all. And not all Aberrations are psionics heavy. Some are. In any case it doesn't take Touchsight into account either. In fact Touchsight is basically Blindsight by a different name, which only makes a difference because you get to bypass Darkstalker.

Come to think of it, I'm not sure if anything blocks Mindsight. You could at least dodge the others by being an incorporeal undead (not really viable, but it's there). Mind Blank might, but then telepathy range = Mindsight range, and I don't recall seeing a Mind Affecting tag anywhere in there.

Also, in general stealth is more for the enemies than for you. Both because more HD = more skills, and because a group of monsters is more likely to have a stealth bent than a team of characters. So you can have whole stealthy encounters. The other side of more HD = more skills is that spotting them is harder, but that's what the aforementioned sensory abilities are for. As any of my players can attest to, they are auto wins against stealth, even optimized stealthers.
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There is no greater contribution than Hi Welcome.

Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.

IP proofing and avoiding being CAPed OR - how to make characters relevant in the long term.

Friends don't let friends be Short Bus Hobos.

[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

Kajhera

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Re: Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?
« Reply #72 on: February 05, 2011, 12:52:35 PM »
COP does not come anywhere close, try again.
Well it might not be broken in the power sense, but it's broken when used in the campaign sense. Not many campaign premises stay intact when it's actually used as intended.

Plus for DMs who're high on improvisation you get some serious headaches with reliability.

That's because a number of DMs utterly fail to take into account the game changes fundamentally every few levels, and as a result level 9 abilities, such as COP destroy level 1 adventures.

Nah, it's really because players can ask questions like you suggested, and then run off and do something entirely unrelated negating the answers to their questions.

Like 'Will I be ambushed?'. Sure there might be an ambush planned! But the party may be just as likely to send divination scouts out, teleport in, and kill the guys before they start even planning to ambush. Or I might say no, because I'm thinking about the nation of Maenads where everyone sparkles in the sunlight, while they wind up going to the elven / bugbear nation and then what am I gonna do? Refuse to try ambushing them because I said they weren't getting ambushed?

Future-predicting divination magic gives me a headache in general yea...even when I try to use it. There's logical difficulties with it.

Edit: I don't have problems if it's to, say, always have the right spell up your sleeve out of a particular set. That's fine, if moderately powerful, if my players are smart enough to come up with it. But if they're trying to actually weasel answers out of me I can't possibly know but the gods really should, well, they'd better come up with some kind of a logical workaround.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2011, 01:00:27 PM by Kajhera »

Midnight_v

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Re: Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?
« Reply #73 on: February 05, 2011, 01:02:47 PM »
Quote
As for Mindsight, it's in the same book as Darkstalker.
  :twitch
I'd just said that. Am I on ignore or somethin' ...?

Can anybody hear me!  :lol

Contatct other plane might not be the same thing as scounting.
This would though:
Arcane Eye
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Kajhera

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Re: Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?
« Reply #74 on: February 05, 2011, 01:11:19 PM »
Quote
As for Mindsight, it's in the same book as Darkstalker.
  :twitch
I'd just said that. Am I on ignore or somethin' ...?

Can anybody hear me!  :lol

Contatct other plane might not be the same thing as scounting.
This would though:
Arcane Eye

One of my kobold sorcerer NPCs favored Chain of Eyes (+imp familiar). 2nd level, somewhat more random but available earlier.

veekie

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Re: Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?
« Reply #75 on: February 05, 2011, 01:13:15 PM »
Oh yeah, but with the casting duration, spell level and how long it lasts it can be a bloody annoyance to have enough.
Rather use Summon Elemental and have an air/earth elemental do it
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."

Kajhera

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Re: Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?
« Reply #76 on: February 05, 2011, 01:24:36 PM »
Oh yeah, but with the casting duration, spell level and how long it lasts it can be a bloody annoyance to have enough.
Rather use Summon Elemental and have an air/earth elemental do it

Chain of Eyes also has a duration of 1 hour/caster level, so it's nice that way.

Other Good Solution: Bind Malphas. Use a dove.  ;) (Have your psicrystal take Bind Vestige / Practiced Binder, and also mindsight if you don't want to spare the feats yourself.  :p )

(Minor difficulty: A psicrystal may need slight assistance with drawing a seal, and does not generally have a shoulder for the dove to appear on.)
« Last Edit: February 05, 2011, 01:33:18 PM by Kajhera »

veekie

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Re: Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?
« Reply #77 on: February 05, 2011, 01:33:17 PM »
Chain of Eyes is less reliable though, but it makes a pretty awesome tagteam with small furry animals.
Well, yeah, we've established magic does it better.
Nothing new there. :P
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
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Kajhera

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Re: Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?
« Reply #78 on: February 05, 2011, 01:35:15 PM »
Chain of Eyes is less reliable though, but it makes a pretty awesome tagteam with small furry animals.
Well, yeah, we've established magic does it better.
Nothing new there. :P

Hence the great success of gnomes as scouts and guerilla warriors.

The gnome/kobold enmity is one of the most tactically interesting racial wars there is, and could be going on in any apparently serene stretch of hills.  :p
« Last Edit: February 05, 2011, 01:37:54 PM by Kajhera »

Sunic_Flames

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Re: Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?
« Reply #79 on: February 05, 2011, 01:52:40 PM »
COP does not come anywhere close, try again.
Well it might not be broken in the power sense, but it's broken when used in the campaign sense. Not many campaign premises stay intact when it's actually used as intended.

Plus for DMs who're high on improvisation you get some serious headaches with reliability.

That's because a number of DMs utterly fail to take into account the game changes fundamentally every few levels, and as a result level 9 abilities, such as COP destroy level 1 adventures.

Nah, it's really because players can ask questions like you suggested, and then run off and do something entirely unrelated negating the answers to their questions.

Like 'Will I be ambushed?'. Sure there might be an ambush planned! But the party may be just as likely to send divination scouts out, teleport in, and kill the guys before they start even planning to ambush. Or I might say no, because I'm thinking about the nation of Maenads where everyone sparkles in the sunlight, while they wind up going to the elven / bugbear nation and then what am I gonna do? Refuse to try ambushing them because I said they weren't getting ambushed?

Future-predicting divination magic gives me a headache in general yea...even when I try to use it. There's logical difficulties with it.

Edit: I don't have problems if it's to, say, always have the right spell up your sleeve out of a particular set. That's fine, if moderately powerful, if my players are smart enough to come up with it. But if they're trying to actually weasel answers out of me I can't possibly know but the gods really should, well, they'd better come up with some kind of a logical workaround.

Presuming it is obvious what they intend to do. I didn't bother stating this, because it was a given.

So in that example, all questions would be followed by mentioning elves and bugbears. Or something.
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There is no greater contribution than Hi Welcome.

Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.

IP proofing and avoiding being CAPed OR - how to make characters relevant in the long term.

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[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
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