Author Topic: Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?  (Read 99539 times)

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Kajhera

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Re: Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?
« Reply #440 on: February 10, 2011, 11:13:29 AM »
The goal is "trivially exceed +20 to hit with a level 10, Tier 3 party".

As this is in fact a level 10 party, and everything, particularly the Bard is in fact a Tier 3 class, Flawless Victory. The rest is you whining, flailing, and moving the goalposts.

The Bard, by the way has 10 songs. 3 Badge of Valor uses (and it's a cheap item, so if you wanted to be a dick you could just get more than one). Plenty of Inspirational Boosts, especially since it makes good wand bait.

So this can literally go on all day.

...We misunderstood the goalposts, and for some reason figured we had to do this with a human by himself.

If you're allowed a tier 3 party, yes, +30 is indeed a perfectly reasonable number to have.

Brainpiercing

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Re: Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?
« Reply #441 on: February 10, 2011, 11:16:25 AM »
moving the goalposts.

You wish. The goalpost was for a "competent" beatstick to trivially hit +20, or even more, vs touch by himself, with weird claims by you of +30 vs touch, which, as we know, is of course possible every second round, but not for full attacks.

What you are doing is flailing about because you can see that you have to dig a bit deeper to support your own claims. And that just makes me laugh.

Sunic_Flames

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Re: Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?
« Reply #442 on: February 10, 2011, 11:20:59 AM »
The goal is "trivially exceed +20 to hit with a level 10, Tier 3 party".

As this is in fact a level 10 party, and everything, particularly the Bard is in fact a Tier 3 class, Flawless Victory. The rest is you whining, flailing, and moving the goalposts.

The Bard, by the way has 10 songs. 3 Badge of Valor uses (and it's a cheap item, so if you wanted to be a dick you could just get more than one). Plenty of Inspirational Boosts, especially since it makes good wand bait.

So this can literally go on all day.

...We misunderstood the goalposts, and for some reason figured we had to do this with a human by himself.

If you're allowed a tier 3 party, yes, +30 is indeed a perfectly reasonable number to have.

I never said it had to be solo. Indeed, the discussion was about a tier 3 party, which naturally implies there is more than a single person.

Granted, a level 8 Bard has the exact same songs as a level 10 Bard, and therefore the Warblade could do exactly the same thing if he took Leadership, and no other PCs were there, but that's not the point.

That's also with a plain human beatstick, and not the +10 Str/+10 Con for 1 LA, which then gets bought off and therefore doesn't even cause level loss freak of nature that people here regularly assume when discussing beatsticks, even as they regard > +20 to hit at level 10 as inconceivable.

The reason for this, of course is that those people aren't interested in making valid points, they're only interested in whining and flailing at me. Which is why they have been greeted with the utmost contempt, whereas people not acting like MBFs, such as yourself are treated decently.
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Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

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wotmaniac

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Re: Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?
« Reply #443 on: February 10, 2011, 11:22:06 AM »
well, a +20 can be done with @ 6th level with a T4 ... but the goal is a +30 with a T3 beatstick (not a T1-2 gish), so ...

@ Sunic:
okay, a big chunk of that is relying on a HUGE contribution from another character .... are we to assume that a maxed-out bard in the party as part of the baseline, as well?  I thought using party resources was fail.  hell, why not stuff a whored-out War Weaver in the party, while you're at it?  Oh, and a full 1/3 of wealth spent on a single item?  so much for your "IP Proofing".  If you're gonna do it, do it honest -- and stop moving the goalposts.

Okay, lets try:
Half-orc Paragon 3/Fighter 2/Berserk 1/FB 4
abilities: str  42 (16 base +2race +2paragon +2 levels +4rage +6battle fury +6frenzy +4belt) ; other stats as needed.
feats:
1 power attack
3 cleave
4b endurance
5b destructive rage
6 intimidating rage
9 steadfast determination ('cause you gotta "IP Proof")

Equipment: +2 weapon (8k) , belt +4 (16k) , whatever (25k).

so, I got +10 bab + 21 strength + 2 weapon = +33 (for weapon+33 damage).  one encounter per day (+28 on a 2nd encounter; +25 for the rest).  and now you have to spend party resources on proofing vs. the FB (which are actually trivial).  oh, vs. touch -- need another item ... okay, I'm sure if I bother to flip through the good ol' MIC, I'm sure I can find something.

That's by himself -- not with a bunch of team effort spells and such (which you rail against anyway).

and that's only given that battle fury stacks with rage (which I'm not quite sure if it does or not).

Oh, but wait -- this can't be considered baseline, because Sunic refuses to accept FB as being proper/valid for any party.

oh well -- who's next?
« Last Edit: February 10, 2011, 11:37:44 AM by wotmaniac »

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Bloody Initiate

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Re: Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?
« Reply #444 on: February 10, 2011, 11:26:20 AM »
As Stances are Maneuvers, and you get +3 to hit when performing maneuvers of that time, you get +3 to hit all the fucking time.

I thought stances were only considered maneuvers for the purpose of meeting prerequisites for higher lvel maneuvers, PrCs, and feats? (Relevant text is on ToB page 43)

I definitely prefer your interpretation, but it's new to me and I think it might be new to others, so if it's correct I think it'd be a case of a lot of people missing something that you caught.

I also know you still showed the Warblade getting above +20, I'm only interested in the Martial Discipline weapon granting a constant +3.
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snakeman830

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Re: Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?
« Reply #445 on: February 10, 2011, 11:32:07 AM »
Correct.  Stances are not manuvers for anything except meeting prerequisites for learning other manuvers.  As such, Sunic's Warblade only gets +1 from that weapon quality unless he's initiating a manuver from that discipline (not difficult, since virtually every stance has a prerequisite in that discipline).
I am constantly amazed by how many DM's ban Tomb of Battle.  The book doesn't even exist!

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Kajhera

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Re: Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?
« Reply #446 on: February 10, 2011, 11:39:28 AM »
The goal is "trivially exceed +20 to hit with a level 10, Tier 3 party".

As this is in fact a level 10 party, and everything, particularly the Bard is in fact a Tier 3 class, Flawless Victory. The rest is you whining, flailing, and moving the goalposts.

The Bard, by the way has 10 songs. 3 Badge of Valor uses (and it's a cheap item, so if you wanted to be a dick you could just get more than one). Plenty of Inspirational Boosts, especially since it makes good wand bait.

So this can literally go on all day.

...We misunderstood the goalposts, and for some reason figured we had to do this with a human by himself.

If you're allowed a tier 3 party, yes, +30 is indeed a perfectly reasonable number to have.

I never said it had to be solo. Indeed, the discussion was about a tier 3 party, which naturally implies there is more than a single person.

Granted, a level 8 Bard has the exact same songs as a level 10 Bard, and therefore the Warblade could do exactly the same thing if he took Leadership, and no other PCs were there, but that's not the point.

That's also with a plain human beatstick, and not the +10 Str/+10 Con for 1 LA, which then gets bought off and therefore doesn't even cause level loss freak of nature that people here regularly assume when discussing beatsticks, even as they regard > +20 to hit at level 10 as inconceivable.

The reason for this, of course is that those people aren't interested in making valid points, they're only interested in whining and flailing at me. Which is why they have been greeted with the utmost contempt, whereas people not acting like MBFs, such as yourself are treated decently.

Ah... thank you. I appreciate not being treated with the utmost contempt, particularly when I'm making some really stupid mistakes in my logic because it's midnight.

If I were playing that bard, I'd probably take Dragonfire Inspiration and tell the warblade he better blessed well figure out how to make his attacks as touch attacks. Though that would only be relevant when we were fighting something that wasn't immune or severely resistant to my energy type.

(Also how will the bonus from using Words of Creation stack with the bonus from the masterwork horn? I'm suddenly really tempted to play an exalted bard.)

Sunic_Flames

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Re: Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?
« Reply #447 on: February 10, 2011, 11:42:27 AM »
Look at the example. In the exact text of the item.

"...If the wielder were actually using maneuvers from both schools, for example, a Stone Dragon stance with a Shadow Hand strike it would provide +7 on attack rolls."

The example refers to a +1 Stone Dragon Shadow Hand weapon, obviously but it's clear any other discipline would work the same way with appropriate moves, and that stances are specifically called out as working with this.
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snakeman830

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Re: Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?
« Reply #448 on: February 10, 2011, 11:45:13 AM »
So it is.  Of course, I see this as further proof ToB needed a real eratta.  If we had that, we wouldn't have had the confusion.
I am constantly amazed by how many DM's ban Tomb of Battle.  The book doesn't even exist!

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Amadi

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Re: Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?
« Reply #449 on: February 10, 2011, 11:45:29 AM »
LG Anthropomorphic Bat Swordsage 10.

Wis: 18(Base)+2(Levels)+6(Race)+4(Enhancement) = 30 (+10)
Int: 12++(Base)

Feats: Education (1st), Apprentice: Spellcaster (F), ??? (F) , Weapon Focus (B), Intuitive Attack (3rd), Knowledge Devotion (6th), ??? (9th)

49,000 GP:
5250g: Wand of Divine Power (If you want to whine about this, note that I could use full-BaB class instead, ok?)
16000g: +4 Item of Wisdom
8300g: +1 [Whatever school you have stance in] Aptitude Weapon
500g: MW tool for every knowledge skill ever.
2100g: +1 Mithral Chain Shirt
Dastana, Charar-Aina

To Hit: +30 (+10 BaB, +10 Wisdom, +1 Size, +1 Weapon Focus, +1 Enhancement, +3 Aptitude, +3 Knowledge Devotion taking 10, +1 higher elevation through flying.)
AC: 27

Two feats free, gold free, etccrap. And I paid for medium sized mithral shirt because I didn't remember if small was half or quarter.
----------

Not that hard. Hell, the bard should be able to get to +30 himself with Snowflake Wardance.

Water Orc Warblade 7 / Orc Paragon 3 is looking at 10(BaB)+10(Str)+1(Focus)+1(Enhancement)+3(Aptitude). Now, that's over 20 when hitting touch, so he trips someone for lulz, and then pounds them when they are on the ground for +4, and I'm sure you can get the final +1 somehow. This is, of course, without rage. And if we're talking of uberchargers, it's +2 for charging, so yay. We haven't even touched incarnum yet. Or then he could get frenzied berserker or some crap like that.

snakeman830

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Re: Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?
« Reply #450 on: February 10, 2011, 11:47:20 AM »
IIRC, Small armor costs the same as medium. It weighs half as much, though.
I am constantly amazed by how many DM's ban Tomb of Battle.  The book doesn't even exist!

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archangel.arcanis

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Re: Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?
« Reply #451 on: February 10, 2011, 11:49:40 AM »
Look at the example. In the exact text of the item.

"...If the wielder were actually using maneuvers from both schools, for example, a Stone Dragon stance with a Shadow Hand strike it would provide +7 on attack rolls."

The example refers to a +1 Stone Dragon Shadow Hand weapon, obviously but it's clear any other discipline would work the same way with appropriate moves, and that stances are specifically called out as working with this.
The biggest hole in this is the fact that many if not most of WotC's examples in the books are wrong. Such as those for a PrC that don't actually qualify for the PrC. No doubt this supports your assertion, but it isn't a clear cut case. Either way I just wanted to point out WotC is incompetent and this may/probably is yet another example of that.
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Re: Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?
« Reply #452 on: February 10, 2011, 11:51:04 AM »
Correct.  Stances are not manuvers for anything except meeting prerequisites for learning other manuvers.  As such, Sunic's Warblade only gets +1 from that weapon quality unless he's initiating a manuver from that discipline (not difficult, since virtually every stance has a prerequisite in that discipline).
Actually, for once he's right. If you are in a stance, it counts as "using" the discipline weapon for the purpose of the weapon. There's a specific example where it's spelled out that a guy using a weapon with two discipline enhancements gets +7 total for stance + maneuver.

Quote from: ToB

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Re: Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?
« Reply #453 on: February 10, 2011, 11:54:15 AM »
The goal is "trivially exceed +20 to hit with a level 10, Tier 3 party".

As this is in fact a level 10 party, and everything, particularly the Bard is in fact a Tier 3 class, Flawless Victory. The rest is you whining, flailing, and moving the goalposts.

The Bard, by the way has 10 songs. 3 Badge of Valor uses (and it's a cheap item, so if you wanted to be a dick you could just get more than one). Plenty of Inspirational Boosts, especially since it makes good wand bait.

So this can literally go on all day.

As for the bat swordsage, Knowledge Devotion is made when combat starts. No taking 10. And Wands mean burning an action. Otherwise fine. Exceeding +20 isn't hard after all, that's the whole point.

...We misunderstood the goalposts, and for some reason figured we had to do this with a human by himself.

If you're allowed a tier 3 party, yes, +30 is indeed a perfectly reasonable number to have.

I never said it had to be solo. Indeed, the discussion was about a tier 3 party, which naturally implies there is more than a single person.

Granted, a level 8 Bard has the exact same songs as a level 10 Bard, and therefore the Warblade could do exactly the same thing if he took Leadership, and no other PCs were there, but that's not the point.

That's also with a plain human beatstick, and not the +10 Str/+10 Con for 1 LA, which then gets bought off and therefore doesn't even cause level loss freak of nature that people here regularly assume when discussing beatsticks, even as they regard > +20 to hit at level 10 as inconceivable.

The reason for this, of course is that those people aren't interested in making valid points, they're only interested in whining and flailing at me. Which is why they have been greeted with the utmost contempt, whereas people not acting like MBFs, such as yourself are treated decently.

Ah... thank you. I appreciate not being treated with the utmost contempt, particularly when I'm making some really stupid mistakes in my logic because it's midnight.

If I were playing that bard, I'd probably take Dragonfire Inspiration and tell the warblade he better blessed well figure out how to make his attacks as touch attacks. Though that would only be relevant when we were fighting something that wasn't immune or severely resistant to my energy type.

(Also how will the bonus from using Words of Creation stack with the bonus from the masterwork horn? I'm suddenly really tempted to play an exalted bard.)

Words of Creation doubles everything.

So you start with +2/+2/+2 attacks, damage, saves vs fear.
Song of the Heart is +1/+1/+1.
Inspirational Boost is +1/+1/+1.
MW Horn is +1/+1/-2.
Words of Creation doubles the end result, for +10/+10/+6. On your second round, Badge of Valor. +12/+12/+8. Both it and Inspirational Boost are Swift actions, but the spell must be used when you start the song. The item can be used after you start singing.

Also, Dragonfire Inspiration is A Trap.

Let's see... +10 to hit and damage, which by the way is 30 damage with PA, and more with PA multipliers, or 10d6 (average 35) energy damage that doesn't get multiplied, but does get resisted at a rate greater than 0%. Maybe if you have two Bards, so you can get both, but that is treading into edge case scenario territory.

And yes, WotC sometimes fucks up on examples. However those fuckups are very obvious, such as applying an Abjuration only effect to Conjuration spells. Since it says stances are maneuvers, and then says stance = +3 to hit...

If you want to argue RAI, let's see... it's a +1 property, that gives +1 to hit under certain conditions. Even if those conditions apply all the fucking time, you still could have gotten +1 to hit AND +1 damage, for the same cost, and that'd still be a very poor use of wealth and weapon slots. It then gives +3 when actually using those maneuvers, which is either still weak if it only works with strikes even though it says maneuvers, or actually worth it for some classes if it does work with stances.
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[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

Kajhera

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Re: Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?
« Reply #454 on: February 10, 2011, 12:09:42 PM »
The goal is "trivially exceed +20 to hit with a level 10, Tier 3 party".

As this is in fact a level 10 party, and everything, particularly the Bard is in fact a Tier 3 class, Flawless Victory. The rest is you whining, flailing, and moving the goalposts.

The Bard, by the way has 10 songs. 3 Badge of Valor uses (and it's a cheap item, so if you wanted to be a dick you could just get more than one). Plenty of Inspirational Boosts, especially since it makes good wand bait.

So this can literally go on all day.

As for the bat swordsage, Knowledge Devotion is made when combat starts. No taking 10. And Wands mean burning an action. Otherwise fine. Exceeding +20 isn't hard after all, that's the whole point.

...We misunderstood the goalposts, and for some reason figured we had to do this with a human by himself.

If you're allowed a tier 3 party, yes, +30 is indeed a perfectly reasonable number to have.

I never said it had to be solo. Indeed, the discussion was about a tier 3 party, which naturally implies there is more than a single person.

Granted, a level 8 Bard has the exact same songs as a level 10 Bard, and therefore the Warblade could do exactly the same thing if he took Leadership, and no other PCs were there, but that's not the point.

That's also with a plain human beatstick, and not the +10 Str/+10 Con for 1 LA, which then gets bought off and therefore doesn't even cause level loss freak of nature that people here regularly assume when discussing beatsticks, even as they regard > +20 to hit at level 10 as inconceivable.

The reason for this, of course is that those people aren't interested in making valid points, they're only interested in whining and flailing at me. Which is why they have been greeted with the utmost contempt, whereas people not acting like MBFs, such as yourself are treated decently.

Ah... thank you. I appreciate not being treated with the utmost contempt, particularly when I'm making some really stupid mistakes in my logic because it's midnight.

If I were playing that bard, I'd probably take Dragonfire Inspiration and tell the warblade he better blessed well figure out how to make his attacks as touch attacks. Though that would only be relevant when we were fighting something that wasn't immune or severely resistant to my energy type.

(Also how will the bonus from using Words of Creation stack with the bonus from the masterwork horn? I'm suddenly really tempted to play an exalted bard.)

Words of Creation doubles everything.

So you start with +2/+2/+2 attacks, damage, saves vs fear.
Song of the Heart is +1/+1/+1.
Inspirational Boost is +1/+1/+1.
MW Horn is +1/+1/-2.
Words of Creation doubles the end result, for +10/+10/+6. On your second round, Badge of Valor. +12/+12/+8. Both it and Inspirational Boost are Swift actions, but the spell must be used when you start the song. The item can be used after you start singing.

Also, Dragonfire Inspiration is A Trap.

Let's see... +10 to hit and damage, which by the way is 30 damage with PA, and more with PA multipliers, or 10d6 (average 35) energy damage that doesn't get multiplied, but does get resisted at a rate greater than 0%. Maybe if you have two Bards, so you can get both, but that is treading into edge case scenario territory.

And yes, WotC sometimes fucks up on examples. However those fuckups are very obvious, such as applying an Abjuration only effect to Conjuration spells. Since it says stances are maneuvers, and then says stance = +3 to hit...

If you want to argue RAI, let's see... it's a +1 property, that gives +1 to hit under certain conditions. Even if those conditions apply all the fucking time, you still could have gotten +1 to hit AND +1 damage, for the same cost, and that'd still be a very poor use of wealth and weapon slots. It then gives +3 when actually using those maneuvers, which is either still weak if it only works with strikes even though it says maneuvers, or actually worth it for some classes if it does work with stances.

Hmm... fair points, though not all characters qualify for power attack - I'm thinking kobold bard here, with kobold allies ... because that's how I think. Of course if you're boosting lower-level sorts they could probably use the to-attack more ... but if you're swarming a big and eminently hittable foe with claws and teeth the +multiple-of-10d6 damage probably wouldn't be a bad option to have available.

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Re: Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?
« Reply #455 on: February 10, 2011, 12:22:44 PM »
^Seeker of the Song gets to sing two songs at the same time. Sing both versions of IC and rock on. You can also switch DFI's energy with Dragon Heritage, etc. That's strong dedication!
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Re: Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?
« Reply #456 on: February 10, 2011, 12:29:56 PM »
Look at the example. In the exact text of the item.

"...If the wielder were actually using maneuvers from both schools, for example, a Stone Dragon stance with a Shadow Hand strike it would provide +7 on attack rolls."

The example refers to a +1 Stone Dragon Shadow Hand weapon, obviously but it's clear any other discipline would work the same way with appropriate moves, and that stances are specifically called out as working with this.

That makes me happy.

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Re: Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?
« Reply #457 on: February 10, 2011, 01:05:47 PM »
Hmm... fair points, though not all characters qualify for power attack - I'm thinking kobold bard here, with kobold allies ... because that's how I think. Of course if you're boosting lower-level sorts they could probably use the to-attack more ... but if you're swarming a big and eminently hittable foe with claws and teeth the +multiple-of-10d6 damage probably wouldn't be a bad option to have available.

Well if you can't PA, you can't DPS, so any discussion of meleeing does assume PA as a standard. Also, kobolds are -4 Str, and not -40. Assuming you do have an all kobold party, the beatstick should still be packing 20 Str (22 if he LA buyoffs Draconic, which also negates the Con penalty). 14 at level 1. Since LA buyoff is allowed in the game being discussed, and you can LA buyoff LA 1 without dropping a level...

Assuming the enemy has no problem hitting, 30 damage that always works, and becomes 50 with Leap Attack (and higher with other things) is still better than hoping the enemy has 0 resist to your element, because if they don't you're fucked. Not to mention the intelligent foe thing. Sooner or later they're all going to be packing a Resist to your element.

Like I said, only worth it if you can do both. Which means 2 Bards, or apparently some Bard PRC.
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[/spoiler]

Kajhera

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Re: Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?
« Reply #458 on: February 10, 2011, 01:09:38 PM »
Hmm... fair points, though not all characters qualify for power attack - I'm thinking kobold bard here, with kobold allies ... because that's how I think. Of course if you're boosting lower-level sorts they could probably use the to-attack more ... but if you're swarming a big and eminently hittable foe with claws and teeth the +multiple-of-10d6 damage probably wouldn't be a bad option to have available.

Well if you can't PA, you can't DPS, so any discussion of meleeing does assume PA as a standard. Also, kobolds are -4 Str, and not -40. Assuming you do have an all kobold party, the beatstick should still be packing 20 Str (22 if he LA buyoffs Draconic, which also negates the Con penalty). 14 at level 1. Since LA buyoff is allowed in the game being discussed, and you can LA buyoff LA 1 without dropping a level...

Assuming the enemy has no problem hitting, 30 damage that always works, and becomes 50 with Leap Attack (and higher with other things) is still better than hoping the enemy has 0 resist to your element, because if they don't you're fucked. Not to mention the intelligent foe thing. Sooner or later they're all going to be packing a Resist to your element.

Like I said, only worth it if you can do both. Which means 2 Bards, or apparently some Bard PRC.

I... think I've started daydreaming about hordes of kobolds now so um. Don't mind me.  :)

Both at once sounds good, but you have to be 10th level before taking Seeker of the Song it appears, so it's not going to be applicable to the 10th level party and I'm going to go daydream about hordes of kobolds now.

Talk to you guys later. *wanders off.*

wotmaniac

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Re: Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?
« Reply #459 on: February 10, 2011, 01:11:20 PM »
Hmm... fair points, though not all characters qualify for power attack - I'm thinking kobold bard here, with kobold allies ... because that's how I think. Of course if you're boosting lower-level sorts they could probably use the to-attack more ... but if you're swarming a big and eminently hittable foe with claws and teeth the +multiple-of-10d6 damage probably wouldn't be a bad option to have available.

Well if you can't PA, you can't DPS, so any discussion of meleeing does assume PA as a standard. Also, kobolds are -4 Str, and not -40. Assuming you do have an all kobold party, the beatstick should still be packing 20 Str (22 if he LA buyoffs Draconic, which also negates the Con penalty). 14 at level 1. Since LA buyoff is allowed in the game being discussed, and you can LA buyoff LA 1 without dropping a level...

Assuming the enemy has no problem hitting, 30 damage that always works, and becomes 50 with Leap Attack (and higher with other things) is still better than hoping the enemy has 0 resist to your element, because if they don't you're fucked. Not to mention the intelligent foe thing. Sooner or later they're all going to be packing a Resist to your element.

Like I said, only worth it if you can do both. Which means 2 Bards, or apparently some Bard PRC.

I... think I've started daydreaming about hordes of kobolds now so um. Don't mind me.  :)

Both at once sounds good, but you have to be 10th level before taking Seeker of the Song it appears, so it's not going to be applicable to the 10th level party and I'm going to go daydream about hordes of kobolds now.

Talk to you guys later. *wanders off.*
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