Author Topic: Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?  (Read 99556 times)

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RelentlessImp

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Re: Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?
« Reply #340 on: February 09, 2011, 12:49:48 PM »
This thread has quickly gone from asking an innocent but loaded question, to people hurling insults and claiming you're playing make-believe wrong, and finally to rule 34. This is really creepy at how quickly those evolutions took place.

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nightshade

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Re: Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?
« Reply #341 on: February 09, 2011, 12:54:50 PM »
this reminds me of ..


I think you should just agree to disagree


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veekie

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Re: Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?
« Reply #342 on: February 09, 2011, 12:57:26 PM »
This thread has quickly gone from asking an innocent but loaded question, to people hurling insults and claiming you're playing make-believe wrong, and finally to rule 34. This is really creepy at how quickly those evolutions took place.

Welcome to the internet. Your membership jacket and ID card are in the mail. Have a Good Day, Citizen.
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Re: Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?
« Reply #343 on: February 09, 2011, 12:58:30 PM »
This thread has quickly gone from asking an innocent but loaded question, to people hurling insults and claiming you're playing make-believe wrong, and finally to rule 34. This is really creepy at how quickly those evolutions took place.

Welcome to the internet. Your membership jacket and ID card are in the mail. Have a Good Day, Citizen.
You forgot "Please check your brain at the desk."
But then what would you pierce?
yes, dammit, that wouldn't do.

Agita

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Re: Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?
« Reply #344 on: February 09, 2011, 01:06:23 PM »
This thread has quickly gone from asking an innocent but loaded question, to people hurling insults and claiming you're playing make-believe wrong, and finally to rule 34. This is really creepy at how quickly those evolutions took place.

Welcome to the internet. Your membership jacket and ID card are in the mail. Have a Good Day, Citizen.
You forgot "Please check your brain at the desk."
But then what would you pierce?
The heavens, obviously.
It's all about vision and making reality conform to your vision. By dropping a fucking house on it.

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wotmaniac

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Re: Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?
« Reply #345 on: February 09, 2011, 01:07:53 PM »
at one point I thought that maybe the question should have been "Can the role of ... ?"; with the idea being that the conversation would have been about the various instances when it could work.
but then I realized that it really wouldn't have mattered -- it still would have devolved in to a handful of people cursing each other out about how the others are so stupid for playing wrong.


as for my 2 cp .... in my experiences, as long as adequate planning is done, it can be used to good effect (just be careful to not let your game turn in to Logistics & Dragons -- so many hours .... :nonono)

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snakeman830

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Re: Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?
« Reply #346 on: February 09, 2011, 01:11:13 PM »
This thread has quickly gone from asking an innocent but loaded question, to people hurling insults and claiming you're playing make-believe wrong, and finally to rule 34. This is really creepy at how quickly those evolutions took place.

Welcome to the internet. Your membership jacket and ID card are in the mail. Have a Good Day, Citizen.
You forgot "Please check your brain at the desk."
But then what would you pierce?
The heavens, obviously.
But then you have to play with its junk.  Not sure I want to do that.
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Sunic_Flames

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Re: Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?
« Reply #347 on: February 09, 2011, 01:42:59 PM »
This is how people pass time on the internet.

If only people could be content with watching porn...
You mean you don't watch porn while debating Wrong People On Internet?
You mean debating Wrong People On Internet isn't porn?

In other news, did you know Smiting Imbeciles acts as an aphrodisiac?

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Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

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lans

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Re: Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?
« Reply #348 on: February 09, 2011, 02:30:34 PM »
What published adventures have things like life sense, mind sense or other methods of detection that aren't thwarted by darkstalker?




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RelentlessImp

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Re: Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?
« Reply #349 on: February 09, 2011, 02:33:34 PM »
What published adventures have things like life sense, mind sense or other methods of detection that aren't thwarted by darkstalker?

What published adventures don't suck a barrel of cocks?
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Agita

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Re: Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?
« Reply #350 on: February 09, 2011, 02:35:21 PM »
What published adventures have things like life sense, mind sense or other methods of detection that aren't thwarted by darkstalker?

What published adventures don't suck a barrel of cocks?
Sharns?
It's all about vision and making reality conform to your vision. By dropping a fucking house on it.

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bkdubs123

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Re: Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?
« Reply #351 on: February 09, 2011, 02:36:22 PM »
This thread is quite the hotbed of people popping in and out.
So... I'm really just curious and this is mostly to jaronk but likely to bkdubs123
as well but is this one of those "Someone is wrong on the internet" things?
I ask this because... well I think you're kinda above this type of argument really,
all of you. If everyone is so convinced it seem unlikely that either side i going to
just all of a sudden go "Damn, Sunic... you're right, rogues do suck. Wow."
Or contrarywise that Sunic will go and do the opposite.

I'm trying to get an actual discussion with Sunic going rather than the normal, "well, this is how it is" stuff that members of both sides of this argument are guilty of. I'm trying to be civil and draw out actual numbers from actual gameplay, but I seem to be getting drowned out in a see of smiting the infidel named JaronK.

Like Veekie said, using any single encounter as if it were representative of what makes scouts fail doesn't hold up, so we need to have a more in depth conversation, open to other possibilities and explore the issue further. Sunic may well change my mind on the scenario. The biggest reason he hasn't yet is because his arguments hold little water. Were he to present a legitimate case that scouting cannot succeed over 70% or greater cases where scouting would even prove useful, hell probably even 50%, in a Tier 3 game, then I think I'd have to concede that the "stealthy dude" role is just not a viable one. And it is possible for him to do that.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2011, 02:40:47 PM by bkdubs123 »

lans

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Re: Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?
« Reply #352 on: February 09, 2011, 02:42:17 PM »
What published adventures have things like life sense, mind sense or other methods of detection that aren't thwarted by darkstalker?

What published adventures don't suck a barrel of cocks?
Sharns?
I think published adventures are close to how the game was meant to be played.
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SeekingKnight

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Re: Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?
« Reply #353 on: February 09, 2011, 03:41:19 PM »
Ok..got what I wanted to say off my chest and now can make a more thought out post.  Both sides have very valid points brought up.  That being said it all comes down to how the DM wishes to run his/her campaign.  Sunic, it seems, is in favor of T1 games that can feel like a Mercedes Lackey book.  Heavy on magic and non-magic users are niche catagories.  Jaron plays T3-4 games where it can feel like Eberron.  A standard type game where all the party members can optimize but yet not have to be certain classes.  Then you have what my old DM had where it was "Herp Derp monks and fighters rule!  Clerics only healz and wizards pew pew."

RelentlessImp

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Re: Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?
« Reply #354 on: February 09, 2011, 03:43:25 PM »
Sunic, it seems, is in favor of T1 games that can feel like a Mercedes Lackey book.

Hey man, insult the man, swear at him, or something. There's no need to nuke him from orbit then salt the earth his remains lay in. Jesus. That's some serious hate you've got there.
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Sunic_Flames

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Re: Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?
« Reply #355 on: February 09, 2011, 03:47:47 PM »
What published adventures have things like life sense, mind sense or other methods of detection that aren't thwarted by darkstalker?

What published adventures don't suck a barrel of cocks?

Well played.

After all, let's look at some common, popular APs:

AoW/SC/ST/Anything else made by Paizil: Trivialized by real abilities, allowing you to skip full sections of the campaign.
RHoD: First half is beating up super low level humanoids, and terribly built enemies. The second half is skipped, as they have no defense vs scry and fry, and are so poorly made you can blitz them at 9 even though you're supposed to be 11 or 12.

Also, still skipping past baiting remarks.

As for the tier of the game, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6. Doesn't matter. Scouts get slaughtered. More or less automatically. Don't split the party, don't scout, don't waste resources on it, don't waste a party slot on it. It's not difficult to understand. Sure, Jaron wanks so hard to scouts because he cannot accept his favorite things suck, and has to nerf anything better than it, which is just about anything. But other than that, tiers have nothing to do with it. What matters is that the party is there, together when shit goes down, and they don't have any dead weight dragging them down. Sure, in anything lower than 3, you're all dead weight. But I mean aside from that. That means recon comes from things like Divinations, that don't fucking get you slaughtered.

Now I was going to continue to reply to this as if it were a post of merit, however it's been brought to my attention that comparison was meant as an insult. So instead...

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There is no greater contribution than Hi Welcome.

Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.

IP proofing and avoiding being CAPed OR - how to make characters relevant in the long term.

Friends don't let friends be Short Bus Hobos.

[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

SeekingKnight

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Re: Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?
« Reply #356 on: February 09, 2011, 04:12:43 PM »
Ummm I did not mean it as an insult.  I like Mercedes Lackey books.  Just pointing out that DMs can run a game how ever they please.  Also I am just making observations on the information presented in this thread.



Edit:  Also I am trying to remain civil on posting.  I am not one for insults and such as it proves nothing.  I like how Sunic and Jaron have good points on the subject.  Still it comes down to DM handling it.  If a DM wants to make his players have 30+ sheets of characters then why bother role playing.  All the game becomes is a numbers exercise to see what is the best option for completing an adventure.  I had a DM who made the game me vs him.  I had to outwit him, I had to think of stratgies to defeat his plans, I had to work for his respect.  Games like that are no fun.  On the other side of the coin neither is a game where combat takes 2-3 hours and all of it is because people make their characters for "role playing".

The more I think on it the more I believe that table top games are a dying breed.  I can get as much role playing on WoW or DCUO or even free form with people I know.  I really, really love pen and paper games but, as seen in the discussions above, it comes down to "I am right and you are wrong!  No I am right and you are wrong!"  So why bother? 

P.S.  Sorry if that sounds very negative...just speaking my mind.  Heck I accept I can be wrong.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2011, 04:35:15 PM by SeekingKnight »

dark_samuari

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Re: Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?
« Reply #357 on: February 09, 2011, 04:40:46 PM »
My friends and I back home pretty much have no problem with our characters dying. We are all in different improv' comedy troupes so making up new characters comes pretty easy for us.

Incendax

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Re: Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?
« Reply #358 on: February 09, 2011, 04:46:49 PM »
The numbers are definitely against the Stealthy Dude.
The intelligence of the monsters are definitely against the Stealthy Dude.
There are a few feats and spells that completely nullify the Stealthy Dude.

But, in the majority of games there exists a rubric of success versus failure for a player that means he will succeed the majority of the time. Even if the DM has to coddle the player to a reasonable extent, he will coddle the player to a reasonable extent, if only because it's not unreasonable for the player to want to enjoy being the Stealthy Dude. By simple virtue of the fact that the player has invested a sizable amount of resources towards the goal of being the Stealth Dude the DM is almost obligated to provide him... let's say 80%... success.

So it really comes down to what we define 'Viable' as. Is the role of Stealthy Dude viable for personal enjoyment? Definitely. Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable expense of resources compared to alternative forms of recon? No. Does recon of any kind provide viable benefits to the party? Entirely debatable based upon the type of campaign you play in.

Kajhera

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Re: Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?
« Reply #359 on: February 09, 2011, 04:50:55 PM »
I love scouting.

With pigeons.

Have I mentioned this?

Yes? Oh. Sorry.  :blush