Author Topic: Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?  (Read 103990 times)

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Bozwevial

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Re: Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?
« Reply #280 on: February 08, 2011, 11:51:48 PM »
Why would you even do this? It hurts my eyes and looks like you ate your keyboard before suffering an attack of explosive diarrhea.
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Sunic_Flames

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Re: Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?
« Reply #281 on: February 08, 2011, 11:53:25 PM »
ITT: Jaron whines, flails, lies some more, pretends enemies who use the most basic of tactics and have even a little info about the party are twice as hard as dumb MOBs (which is likely true, but the default for 22 Int is FUCKING SMART, and not dumb MOB), whines and flails some more, and generally tries to defend his super optimized, but still utter fail build by claiming the world should suck a bigger barrel of cocks than he does.

Then why did you play your devil as a dumb mob?  Why was it in a position where it could be spotted, when burying itself a few more inches down would have completely ambushed the party?  And to be clear, I'm using the actual CR rules as written.  It's not my rules, its the game's rules.

JaronK

Because it needed to see. By the way, nice job stealing the King of Fucktards title from Mr. I Can't Spell Samurai. He never saw that coming, mostly because scouts actually do sneak past incompetent fuckwits, even though they fail vs everything else.

I must say, Jaron, you're beating your own record for stupid posts in a 2 hour period.
I think you misspelled Sunic there.
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Hey now. A Whispergnome Necropolitian Factorum might weigh 25 pounds or less. So if you get 15 of them, they're actually useful for something!

I must say, Jaron, you're beating your own record for stupid posts in a 2 hour period.
I think you misspelled Sunic there.
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Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

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[/spoiler]

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?
« Reply #282 on: February 08, 2011, 11:59:58 PM »
I'm sorry, I can't hear you over my AIR GUITAR
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veekie

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Re: Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?
« Reply #283 on: February 09, 2011, 12:00:27 AM »
I still wonder why the concern with one specific encounter.
Issue 1: Scouts can be detected without fail by certain methods.
Encounters where scouts are detected without fail are a small subset of creatures/scenarios. Areas without cover for a large stretch(e.g. snowfield with no vegetation, structures or snowdrifts), creatures with Telepathy AND Mindsight(that is to say, a handful of actual published creatures at most), undead creatures with Lifesense(see Mindsight) and Psionic creatures with Touchsight(this one varies a bit by how common properly psionic creatures are and how many powers they have available).
Creatures that aren't published are by definition, campaign specific and hence relevant only in an 'In My Game' discussion.
Everything else is covered with Darkstalker and basic magical investment in +stealth items. Distance penalties to senses accumulate FAST. Without Darkstalker, consider the limited distance of exotic senses compared to vision and hearing on most such creatures. How many extend much more than 60ft, how many cover even less?(Scent is 30ft or so, modified by wind)
Whether the scout can get useful information relates to the next one.

Issue 2: Value of scouting
Scouts can't always spot enemies. Wisdom is a secondary or tertiary stat, and the same things that makes stealth easy makes it hard to spot actually stealth focused foes. Finally, ambush scenarios are nasty, since the DM has effectively unlimited time to prepare the site(see that Ice Devil up there)
On the plus side, the same highly specific detection mechanisms are much more accessible on the PC side than on Team Monster, since PCs have volition. If the PC is using an actually GOOD scout(e.g. Unseen Seer for high Tier games, Factotum/Arcane Trickster for mid tier), they can most likely have mundane and magical senses up to identify potential target's abilities.
Also, many monsters are about as stealthy as a factory dancing a jig. That helps.
Besides monster information, the scout also learns about terrain and traps. Assuming hes not blindly blundering ahead and uses his search, this means traps are identified and can be used tactically or avoided(disarming traps while alone is for chumps). Terrain usefulness varies from game to game, so its a relatively minor point.

Issue 3: Don't Split the Party
The biggest flaw of all. The higher level the party goes, the further back they must be to avoid being detected by perceptive foes. Many new to the idea go full out with the idea of the rogue sneaking ahead solo and without support...but how bad is this really?

Overground, most of the party is within engagement range even at optimal sneak distance(far enough to just let the range penalties wipe out the opposition's spot).
The party casters can engage if they can see whats going on, so if your sneak activates an item of Dancing Lights to place a targeting beacon, AoE effects can be delivered effectively with Medium range. Bonus, activating said item does not break invisibility.
Ranged attackers are too in good stead, since they don't even start taking range penalties(assuming they can see to target that far) at 100ft.
Chargers...if you have a charger who doesn't have some way to cross the intevening distance AND conclude with his mega hit, you need to upgrade your charger.

Indoors, the stealth distances required is not as great, with copious cover and concealment. There is of course closet troll scenarios, but the scout's role in a very close environment like this is more sweeping for traps than actually going more than 10-20ft ahead.
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X-Codes

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Re: Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?
« Reply #284 on: February 09, 2011, 12:04:30 AM »
I'm not reading this whole clusterfuck, but anything "without magic" is pretty much doomed to fail hard in D&D. So let's just ignore that stupidity. As demonstrated in the first few replies however, you can make a decent "scout" with just a few magic items and feats (Ring of Darkhidden, Darkstalker feat, and a Wand of Message).
Djore of Mindlink is better.  Unlimited communication over unlimited range for 10 minutes with each charge.  750 gp for 50 charges.

With that, the extent to which the scout can scout ahead of the party is really only limited by how far the party Wizard can Dimension Door/Teleport (or about 680' if you decide to use a wand for that, too, which is great for a familiar to use).  The scout just relays information back to the Wizard when it comes time to telestomp everything and then holds out a Spymaster's Coin for the Wizard to use to look into the room and pick out the best position to pop into.

JaronK

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Re: Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?
« Reply #285 on: February 09, 2011, 12:13:38 AM »
Because it needed to see. By the way, nice job stealing the King of Fucktards title from Mr. I Can't Spell Samurai. He never saw that coming, mostly because scouts actually do sneak past incompetent fuckwits, even though they fail vs everything else.

No it didn't.  It had Mindsight, remember?  That was the only thing it was using to spot the scout in YOUR EXAMPLE.  And in YOUR EXAMPLE that's enough for it to attack blindly.  The fact that its head was revealed was the reason it glowed like a beacon, yet that provided no benefit to it whatsoever because it couldn't spot the stealther anyway with vision and was relying solely on Mindsight.  Thus, its head being revealed was stupid.  Had it been under the snow completely, it would have ambushed your party because they have no decent scout.

So once again we come to Sunic's logic failure: you have to pick one of these two things.

1)  Mindsight is enough for the ice devil to pick a target and attack.  If so, it can maybe jump the stealther (though the stealther, who almost certainly has better initiative, should be able to avoid this attack).  However, if this is the case it should not under any circumstances have its head above the snow (since doing so provides no benefit), and thus should not have been glowing via lifesight, and thus it should have been able to trivially ambush your actual party of Clerics and Wizards.  This means the only reason they didn't need a scout was because you were playing the mob extremely stupidly.

2)  The devil felt the need to actually see the target with more than just Mindsight.  If so, Lifesight can pick it up... but detecting a stealther with mindsight alone wouldn't be enough for him to attack, so he could never possibly jump the stealther.  As such, the scout is completely and totally safe in this scenario, and everything you've claimed about how vulnerable that scout was is a lie.

So which is it? Or are you going to go with the usual "Hi Welcome Herp Derp" response because you don't have anything better?  Right now in Sunic's world, the Ice Devil "needed to see" and yet would gladly attack without needing to see, and thus despite knowing about the party and where they'd be it revealed itself like a beacon for absolutely no reason.  In every scenario you've given for why scouts suck, scouts would have been extremely important.  A scout with Mindsight or Lifesight would have completely negated your guards behind a wall scenario (because they would have instantly popped up on both senses) and, if you'd actually played this ice devil with any hint of intelligence, would have picked up on the devil too quite safely.  How about you try again with less fail?

Here's the truth about scouts: good scouts keep the party far enough back that they're really hard to detect, while staying within the party's engagement range (the higher level you go, the further back the party needs to be but the longer the engagement range, so this is easy at all levels).  As such, he's not splitting the party any more than walking 20 feet away splits the party.  They let the party know about the monsters before the monsters know about the party allowing the party to get 1-2 actions before the monster can do anything, which in a game where actions are everything and fights often last 4 or fewer actions is critical.  They have all the same autodetect abilities that monsters might have, and a scout has them all the time while only a few monsters will have any of them, so they know when a monster autodetects them in the rare case where that happens.  They have ablative defenses (such as Moment of Perfect Mind) so that they're the best person to take one or two hits early, in case that comes up.  And they have far more reliable detection abilities than purely magic ones, which are already trumped by spells like nondetection and Mindblank.  And they're in constant contact with the party by whatever means available (I prefer telepathy, but that's just the characters I tend to run.  There are plenty of options). 

In the end, the question of whether a scout belongs in a party is this: what's better, a party of 4 casters who have all just been hit with AoE debuffs or ambushing single target kill/suck strikes in the surprise round, or a party of three casters and a stealther who have just launched three kill strikes or debuffs at the enemy in the surprise round?  Tromping around together in a tightly packed group blundering blindly from encounter to encounter just means you get ambushed and hit with AoE attacks, if the monsters are actually playing smart.

JaronK
« Last Edit: February 09, 2011, 12:23:56 AM by JaronK »

Sunic_Flames

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Re: Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?
« Reply #286 on: February 09, 2011, 12:26:07 AM »
Even if that is true, Outsiders still breathe, so an Outsider completely covered in snow becomes a dead Outsider in a few minutes. In other words, even if you are right, you are still wrong. As usual.

Hi Welcome

The rest is you lying, flailing, and failing as usual. Haven't you learned after all the other smites sent your way?

No, of course you haven't. Stupid question. You're still assuming you have advantages you don't actually have, and are wanking to CR +5 SPARKLY VAMPIRES.
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[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

JaronK

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Re: Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?
« Reply #287 on: February 09, 2011, 12:35:55 AM »
Even if that is true, Outsiders still breathe, so an Outsider completely covered in snow becomes a dead Outsider in a few minutes. In other words, even if you are right, you are still wrong. As usual.

Wait, your Int 22 demon can't think of breathing through a straw or reed or something?  Really?  Fail.  That tactic's even mentioned in the books a few times (for example, the Ninja-To is mentioned as having an open ended sheath because, among other things, it makes for a decent breathing tube).  Just have the tube curved so the light can't just shine out the thing.

Waiting underground to burst out and attack people is a reasonable and viable tactic for a creature that can sense without eyes, and one that you've specifically said would use Mindsight to pick targets.  The only reason it had its head out was because you were playing an Int 22 creature so stupid that it could be spotted by a non scout easily even when it was trying to ambush.

JaronK
« Last Edit: February 09, 2011, 12:39:06 AM by JaronK »

Sunic_Flames

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Re: Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?
« Reply #288 on: February 09, 2011, 12:48:18 AM »
Ok, as fun as it's been to smite you repeatedly (and it really is fun by the way, no less than five people other than myself have had a good laugh at your expense) you seem to have outlived your usefulness. So be gone.

*Smite Imbecile with Banishment*
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There is no greater contribution than Hi Welcome.

Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.

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[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

dark_samuari

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Re: Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?
« Reply #289 on: February 09, 2011, 12:59:20 AM »
Sunic you do know you aren't a moderator?

You silly goose.

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Re: Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?
« Reply #290 on: February 09, 2011, 01:05:00 AM »
Sunic you do know you aren't a moderator?

You silly goose.

It is still possible to ostracize undesirables via the means of applying discouraging behavior.
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There is no greater contribution than Hi Welcome.

Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.

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[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

RelentlessImp

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Re: Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?
« Reply #291 on: February 09, 2011, 01:06:23 AM »
@JaronK's stupid Arcane Sight argument
Pick up a fucking Eberron book.
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X-Codes

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Re: Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?
« Reply #292 on: February 09, 2011, 01:09:07 AM »
Sunic you do know you aren't a moderator?

You silly goose.

It is still possible to ostracize undesirables via the means of applying discouraging behavior.

Then why won't it work on you?

lans

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Re: Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?
« Reply #293 on: February 09, 2011, 01:09:35 AM »
Has anyone considered using the base ice devil, having persist imaged boulders for fake cover so the scout thinks he's being sneaky in a wide open field, have it summon monsters into those boulders, then teleporting to 1000 feet and raining down hell while the summons attack the party? Still on page 10 here.
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Sunic_Flames

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Re: Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?
« Reply #294 on: February 09, 2011, 01:17:25 AM »
Has anyone considered using the base ice devil, having persist imaged boulders for fake cover so the scout thinks he's being sneaky in a wide open field, have it summon monsters into those boulders, then teleporting to 1000 feet and raining down hell while the summons attack the party? Still on page 10 here.

It is a possibility. It is yet another way the scout would be wtfpwned, while the party, who by the way includes a Church Inquisitor aka fuck you disbelieveable illusions would see right through it. It's not what he did, but it's what he could do. If he actually cared about scouts. He doesn't though.
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There is no greater contribution than Hi Welcome.

Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.

IP proofing and avoiding being CAPed OR - how to make characters relevant in the long term.

Friends don't let friends be Short Bus Hobos.

[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

BeholderSlayer

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Re: Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?
« Reply #295 on: February 09, 2011, 01:18:49 AM »
higuysiwrotethetiersystembutistillamatotalmoronbuticantadmiittomyselfbecauseiamsosmartbecauseiwrotethetiersystemandijackofftodungeonscapeonanightlybasiswhydoesntanybodylikemeireallyamcoolguysiknowwhatimtalkingaboutandimtotallynotanidiottrollthatcomesupwithrandomshitfornoapparentreasonthatisntavalidpartofthediscussionplusiliketomakemyselffeelgoodbyjustifyingmyselfwithretardedcrapthatireadinabooksomewhereandreallyguysthetiersystemissogoodbecauseimadeitupitreallyisntsosimplethatitlookslikeafifthgraderwroteit

no, but seriously, Jaron, I really do advise you stop talking because your "i am a fucking idiot" rating has gone through the roof. for somebody that was crying about a CR +5 encounter you sure are dead set on coming up with ways that the devil could have made it harder. of course, logic, rational thought, consistency, and not moving the goalposts of a discussion are completely foreign concepts to you, so why am i surprised? i'll make sure not to be from now on.
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[spoiler]
Allow me to welcome you both with my literal words and with an active display of how much you fit in by being tone deaf, dumb, and uncritical of your babbling myself.[/spoiler]

dark_samuari

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Re: Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?
« Reply #296 on: February 09, 2011, 01:22:28 AM »
Sunic you do know you aren't a moderator?

You silly goose.

It is still possible to ostracize undesirables via the means of applying discouraging behavior.

Ahaha! HAHAHA!!!

Sunic_Flames

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Re: Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?
« Reply #297 on: February 09, 2011, 01:43:53 AM »
higuysiwrotethetiersystembutistillamatotalmoronbuticantadmiittomyselfbecauseiamsosmartbecauseiwrotethetiersystemandijackofftodungeonscapeonanightlybasiswhydoesntanybodylikemeireallyamcoolguysiknowwhatimtalkingaboutandimtotallynotanidiottrollthatcomesupwithrandomshitfornoapparentreasonthatisntavalidpartofthediscussionplusiliketomakemyselffeelgoodbyjustifyingmyselfwithretardedcrapthatireadinabooksomewhereandreallyguysthetiersystemissogoodbecauseimadeitupitreallyisntsosimplethatitlookslikeafifthgraderwroteit

no, but seriously, Jaron, I really do advise you stop talking because your "i am a fucking idiot" rating has gone through the roof. for somebody that was crying about a CR +5 encounter you sure are dead set on coming up with ways that the devil could have made it harder. of course, logic, rational thought, consistency, and not moving the goalposts of a discussion are completely foreign concepts to you, so why am i surprised? i'll make sure not to be from now on.

Smiting Imbeciles since 1985.

If you hear this music, run.

And don't forget:


There is no greater contribution than Hi Welcome.

Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.

IP proofing and avoiding being CAPed OR - how to make characters relevant in the long term.

Friends don't let friends be Short Bus Hobos.

[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

JaronK

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Re: Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?
« Reply #298 on: February 09, 2011, 02:03:32 AM »
@JaronK's stupid Arcane Sight argument
Pick up a fucking Eberron book.

Sunic's example scenario isn't set in normal Eberron.  It's "only casters matter" land, which means there's a LOT of high level casters.  In a campaign with lower than standard magic availability (such as normal Eberron) such things wouldn't be standard.  Sunic wants to have it both ways, a world where there's way lower than normal casters (compared to what the DMG actually says) but everyone that matters is a caster (so there's a lot more than normal).  If he picked one, he'd see how much he's wrong.  Either casters are the only serious threats out there and you can purchase stuff like Arcane Sight, or they're nowhere to be found and thus not the main threats.  Even Sunic's example scenario had casters in the party who could easily cast Permanent Arcane Sight.  If we're playing a default campaign, Permanent Arcane Sight is available at any metropolis (and many smaller cities, see the DMG for details).  If we're playing Sunic's campaign, it's available in the party.  If we're playing Eberron, it's far less available, but then again most threats aren't just primary casters and casters aren't all that matter anyway.

It's also a world where monsters know about the party in advance and plan ambushes, but are too stupid to use a breathing tube when they have abilities that make that tactic obvious.  If his monsters actually played smart, his party would be dead (due to lack of scouting).  And his response?  Mindless "I SMITE YOU" which is Sunic for "I've been proved wrong."

Seriously, why wouldn't a creature who's detection abilities don't rely on direct LOS, who already knows about the party in advance (and thus probably should have noticed the undead cleric and thus the possibility of lifesight), just finish actually burying himself when he was already there and use a freaking reed?  Why is this beyond his Int 22 brain?  How dumb do you have to be to try and ambush a party and fail because even the Cleric auto detects you before you can attack?  Having a monster plan an ambush in advance and have better than normal feats DOES increase CR, but in this case it didn't matter because it was still played poorly.

And why didn't this same Lifesight Cleric pick up the guards behind a wall from the previous encounter he mentioned?  Why can't Sunic come up with a single example of an encounter that a half decent scout couldn't make far easier, when he's specifically trying to come up with encounters that scouts can't handle?

Sunic's primary objection to scouting?  You have to split the party.  But smart scouts don't split the party, which shows he doesn't actually know how this is done.  They stay within the party's engagement range.  At low levels, that's about 50 feet in front or so (most melees charge 60', archers have a range increment of around 100', mages can Glitterdust at 100', etc).  At mid levels, that's around 100' (and if you're using telepathy, 95' in front is an obvious distance), as the melees gain the ability to fly one way or the other.  At higher levels, it's closer to 200'.  If you check the spot scores of most enemies at appropriate CRs, that's plenty to avoid detection (since the scout should be detecting enemies at the very least 60 feet out at low levels, and 100+ at higher levels).

JaronK

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Re: Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?
« Reply #299 on: February 09, 2011, 02:06:26 AM »
JaronK:

Quit wanking to the DMG. Specific trumps General. the DMG lays out guidelines for the general campaign setting, which is Greyhawk, which has only a few less high level casters than FR. Eberron is specific. Eberron doesn't give a shit about what the DMG says.

Now shut the fuck up and quit flailing like a teeny bopper being told he's wrong.

EDIT: To be honest, I was only picking one word out of JaronK's argument and responding to it to see what it feels like to be him, but this needs addressing.

Sunic's example scenario isn't set in normal Eberron.  It's "only casters matter" land, which means there's a LOT of high level casters.  In a campaign with lower than standard magic availability (such as normal Eberron) such things wouldn't be standard.
BZZT! Fucking WRONG. Eberron has HIGHER than STANDARD magic availability, but it has LOWER than STANDARD HIGH LEVEL magic availability.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2011, 02:19:43 AM by RelentlessImp »
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