Author Topic: Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?  (Read 103112 times)

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BeholderSlayer

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Re: Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?
« Reply #240 on: February 08, 2011, 01:40:24 PM »
Yeah, I know, just mis-typed.
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archangel.arcanis

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Re: Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?
« Reply #241 on: February 08, 2011, 01:44:11 PM »
I never said my groups were competent. I know blasting is at best inefficient, they won't listen to that.

Also your argument about it being irrelevant is total BS. The character could still be scouting and notice the light then report to the group rather than being retarded and walking up to the neon sign that says "trap here". There is no metagaming involved in that, you don't get to assume the monster gets to pick things that are good while the player has to choose to do something stupid.
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veekie

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Re: Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?
« Reply #242 on: February 08, 2011, 01:49:44 PM »
One thing with the 'split the party' aspect of sneaking ahead to scout. Whats the engagement range of the party?

Arcanist: Medium range spells easily hit 100ft and then some
Cleric: See above RE Medium range spells. Also Archer Clerics. Melee clerics see below RE tank.
Sneak: 30ft, assuming archtypical rogue instead of something more useful(like Unseen Seer).
Tank: 0-15ft, assuming not a charger. A charger would extend this to 100ft easily, and should have some means of dealing with screwy terrain. Might want to buy a nice ride or get the wizard to make a nice ride(or just turn him into a nice ride).
Archers: Longbows start range penalties after 100ft, though concealment and cover might be a problem.

So, 100ft ahead, theres nice penalties to spot or hear the party, most of the party is already in engagement range(possibly needing targeting advice if the enemy is hidden). Communication a problem? Use Dancing Lights for signaling at low levels and one of the gazillion medium range message effects available after.
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Unbeliever

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Re: Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?
« Reply #243 on: February 08, 2011, 02:09:05 PM »
...
Nah, even a tier 1 stealth character would fail, as it's still too easy to be detected, and you're still a single character taking on an encounter meant for the whole party. Even something like the Hi Welcome build is likely to fail under such conditions.
I've never contended that the scout is supposed to solo the encounter, but I'm getting tired of repeating myself. 

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Quote
Second, and more importantly, I always go back and forth on these things.  If the monster has a SP at will, that is different from having it "always on."  It involves some effort to activate, otherwise it wouldn't provoke attacks of opportunity, and there are creatures w/ "always on" abilities that are called out as such in the rules. 

That's why SLAs can be activated under any number of conditions, and they only require active effort to keep up when some fool is hitting you in the face or trying to hit you in the face right?

Quote
# Outsiders breathe, but do not need to eat or sleep (although they can do so if they wish). Native outsiders breathe, eat, and sleep.

Outsiders do not need to sleep. This, among other things means they are tireless machines of their alignments, which in this case means [Law] and [Evil]. So even if you want to pull some handwaving fluff about it getting tired, it's very clearly stated that Outsiders do not tire. The reason why it is different from abilities described specifically as always on is that it can be Dispelled, at which point the creature loses it. That's about it really.

Quote
My usual rule of thumb is that if the ability has a long duration, then I treat it as always on.  A power that lasts an hour and is usable at will is effectively constant.  But, every 10ish rounds ... I don't know.  I mean, imagine you were walking and every minute you had to stop and tie your shoes.  You'd probably get sick of it pretty soon, especially after the nigh infinite amount of time a gelugon would be dealing w/ it. 
...

Less of your houserules, more of my DMs.
If you're going to criticize someone's houserules, especially when they are explicitly set out as such, then please don't just go making up your own and parading them around like you didn't just do so. 

First, Outsiders don't sleep, but they are by no means immune to fatigue.  A gelugon is just as vulnerable to fatigue as any other creature in D&D, barring its relatively good fort saves.  They can also be exhausted, suffer strength penalties, and everything else in the system that represents being tired besides having to go to nap time on a regular basis. 

Second, this
That's why SLAs can be activated under any number of conditions, and they only require active effort to keep up when some fool is hitting you in the face or trying to hit you in the face right?
you just made up.  Spell-Like Abilities are, except as noted, just like casting spells.  They have the same duration and involve the same actions as casting spells, although they lack the components.  This means that while the monster doesn't have to wave its hands around, it still takes the full standard action to cast.  So, yeah, they require some effort to keep up, in their home and on their way, when they lie down and when they rise up.  Just like reaching in a backpack or any other activity that provokes AoOs.  Contrast that w/ maybe a quickened spell, which takes a swift action that eventually morphed into the "so easy it's hardly a thought" action in the game, which critically is not distracting and therefore does not provoke AoOs. 

Dictum Mortuum

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Re: Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?
« Reply #244 on: February 08, 2011, 02:11:52 PM »
Fact of the matter, YOU don't want scouting to succeed, and as long as you're GM, it won't. Simple as that. But OTHER GMs just might to LIKE it to work, and hence, when a player comes to them and says "I'd like to play a guy who does recon, etc.", then they'll accomodate him. Give him advice, maybe, caution him about the danger, oh yes, but accomodate him, in that they change their holy game so that the player can have some fun. Which is the entire point, and not masturbating about the awesomeness of ice devils buried in snow.

I'll have to agree with that. Personally, I don't feel that the comment is directed at Sunic, but at DMs Brainpiercing describes. I'm probably the only guy that optimizes in my group, so we generally have stealth characters, straight rangers, warlocks, healing clerics and stuff like that. I think that a competent DM knows how far a party can go and prepare appropriate challenging encounters.
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Re: Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?
« Reply #245 on: February 08, 2011, 02:23:01 PM »

I'll have to agree with that. Personally, I don't feel that the comment is directed at Sunic, but at DMs Brainpiercing describes. I'm probably the only guy that optimizes in my group, so we generally have stealth characters, straight rangers, warlocks, healing clerics and stuff like that. I think that a competent DM knows how far a party can go and prepare appropriate challenging encounters.
And I expect that in fact MOST players have a similar experience. I haven't had ONE GM use Mindsight against me, yet. But a CRAPTON of ambushes, a lot of which (through poor GM skill) were almost enough to TPK the UNBUFFED party! With a buffed party, however, they would have been much easier.

I have to agree, that in a no-holds barred, TO-level cheese game, probably a Scout is dead meat, but then that's the reason you have a frickin cleric or DN: Make him some intelligent undead with Lifesight, and right there you have your DISPOSABLE scout.

Simple military logic dictates that it's good to know where the enemy is, and having someone go in front, who will hopefully make enough noise in going down that you learn about, is a good thing.

RelentlessImp

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Re: Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?
« Reply #246 on: February 08, 2011, 02:46:52 PM »

I'll have to agree with that. Personally, I don't feel that the comment is directed at Sunic, but at DMs Brainpiercing describes. I'm probably the only guy that optimizes in my group, so we generally have stealth characters, straight rangers, warlocks, healing clerics and stuff like that. I think that a competent DM knows how far a party can go and prepare appropriate challenging encounters.
And I expect that in fact MOST players have a similar experience. I haven't had ONE GM use Mindsight against me, yet. But a CRAPTON of ambushes, a lot of which (through poor GM skill) were almost enough to TPK the UNBUFFED party! With a buffed party, however, they would have been much easier.

I have to agree, that in a no-holds barred, TO-level cheese game, probably a Scout is dead meat, but then that's the reason you have a frickin cleric or DN: Make him some intelligent undead with Lifesight, and right there you have your DISPOSABLE scout.

Simple military logic dictates that it's good to know where the enemy is, and having someone go in front, who will hopefully make enough noise in going down that you learn about, is a good thing.

"Simple military logic" that has evolved throughout humanity's history without the existence of INT 30+ Wizards, divination magic, shambling zombies that can sense the living...

We're not playing with reality. We're playing with a psuedo-reality that rests on crazy laws that don't correspond with our own. Even so, there's a few things that stay the same, even using this "simple military logic":

One: Military intelligence is an oxymoron.
Two: "Oh shit" is more recon than most combat groups get.
Three: No plan survives contact with the enemy.
Four: Charlie Foxtrot. You're going to be wearing a dress.

When recon is so easy to beat, and enemies have an inhuman amount of intelligence and probably knows the methods of defeating mundane stealth, you're not going to get "Oh shit". You're going to get "INCOMING!" the moment you have eyes on the enemy. Why? Because splitting the party is suicide for the member that goes off alone to collect recon, so you don't split the party. Just like military recon groups don't send one motherfucker off alone. There's your "simple military logic". Scouting isn't done in the real world by one person alone, and sure as HELL not with ONLY THEIR human senses.

Here is a description of modern, military Force-oriented recon tactics. Notice how many there are where one motherfucker's sent off blind, relying on nothing but himself and comm gear? That doesn't happen. The 'lone scout' archetype is busted in real life, and it's been busted in D&D. Please quit positing it as a valid character type.
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Sunic_Flames

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Re: Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?
« Reply #247 on: February 08, 2011, 02:53:00 PM »
I never said my groups were competent. I know blasting is at best inefficient, they won't listen to that.

Also your argument about it being irrelevant is total BS. The character could still be scouting and notice the light then report to the group rather than being retarded and walking up to the neon sign that says "trap here". There is no metagaming involved in that, you don't get to assume the monster gets to pick things that are good while the player has to choose to do something stupid.

Ok. Character notices light. At the same time, or perhaps sooner source of light notices him, and knows more about him than he knows about the light. Even if he decides to leave right away, the source of the light has more info than him. He finds himself surrounded by more lights. The party is still far away. He gets slaughtered, and later raised as a skeleton by the undead Cleric to hold the bags of the real characters.
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Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

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Dictum Mortuum

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Re: Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?
« Reply #248 on: February 08, 2011, 03:30:54 PM »

I'll have to agree with that. Personally, I don't feel that the comment is directed at Sunic, but at DMs Brainpiercing describes. I'm probably the only guy that optimizes in my group, so we generally have stealth characters, straight rangers, warlocks, healing clerics and stuff like that. I think that a competent DM knows how far a party can go and prepare appropriate challenging encounters.
And I expect that in fact MOST players have a similar experience. I haven't had ONE GM use Mindsight against me, yet. But a CRAPTON of ambushes, a lot of which (through poor GM skill) were almost enough to TPK the UNBUFFED party! With a buffed party, however, they would have been much easier.

I have to agree, that in a no-holds barred, TO-level cheese game, probably a Scout is dead meat, but then that's the reason you have a frickin cleric or DN: Make him some intelligent undead with Lifesight, and right there you have your DISPOSABLE scout.

Simple military logic dictates that it's good to know where the enemy is, and having someone go in front, who will hopefully make enough noise in going down that you learn about, is a good thing.

"Simple military logic" that has evolved throughout humanity's history without the existence of INT 30+ Wizards, divination magic, shambling zombies that can sense the living...

We're not playing with reality. We're playing with a psuedo-reality that rests on crazy laws that don't correspond with our own. Even so, there's a few things that stay the same, even using this "simple military logic":

One: Military intelligence is an oxymoron.
Two: "Oh shit" is more recon than most combat groups get.
Three: No plan survives contact with the enemy.
Four: Charlie Foxtrot. You're going to be wearing a dress.

When recon is so easy to beat, and enemies have an inhuman amount of intelligence and probably knows the methods of defeating mundane stealth, you're not going to get "Oh shit". You're going to get "INCOMING!" the moment you have eyes on the enemy. Why? Because splitting the party is suicide for the member that goes off alone to collect recon, so you don't split the party. Just like military recon groups don't send one motherfucker off alone. There's your "simple military logic". Scouting isn't done in the real world by one person alone, and sure as HELL not with ONLY THEIR human senses.

Here is a description of modern, military Force-oriented recon tactics. Notice how many there are where one motherfucker's sent off blind, relying on nothing but himself and comm gear? That doesn't happen. The 'lone scout' archetype is busted in real life, and it's been busted in D&D. Please quit positing it as a valid character type.

A creature's mental stats are actually capped by its real life pilot mental stats :P

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snakeman830

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Re: Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?
« Reply #249 on: February 08, 2011, 03:40:05 PM »
You know what?  Forget it.  No matter what we point out, Sunic is just going to go "herp derp, I can think of an example where it's a bad idea, therefore it's ALWAYS a bad idea" and won't budge an inch.  Never mind that 99% of the time, scouting is a good move, works perfectly, and that very, very few characters can only scout and not handle themselves long enough to rejoin with the party.
I am constantly amazed by how many DM's ban Tomb of Battle.  The book doesn't even exist!

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Re: Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?
« Reply #250 on: February 08, 2011, 04:00:10 PM »
Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?

Depends on the DM.  I prefer to do my stealthing in a team due to bad experiences adventuring alone.  Lest we forget save or die and save or suck if you are discovered by any magic user who is prepared?

archangel.arcanis

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Re: Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?
« Reply #251 on: February 08, 2011, 04:04:06 PM »
I never said my groups were competent. I know blasting is at best inefficient, they won't listen to that.

Also your argument about it being irrelevant is total BS. The character could still be scouting and notice the light then report to the group rather than being retarded and walking up to the neon sign that says "trap here". There is no metagaming involved in that, you don't get to assume the monster gets to pick things that are good while the player has to choose to do something stupid.

Ok. Character notices light. At the same time, or perhaps sooner source of light notices him, and knows more about him than he knows about the light. Even if he decides to leave right away, the source of the light has more info than him. He finds himself surrounded by more lights. The party is still far away. He gets slaughtered, and later raised as a skeleton by the undead Cleric to hold the bags of the real characters.
if the "scout" doesn't notice what is basically this:
[spoiler][/spoiler]
from more than the 100ft or so telepathy range then they deserve to be buggered by the ice devil.

« Last Edit: February 08, 2011, 04:42:02 PM by archangel.arcanis »
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Sunic_Flames

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Re: Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?
« Reply #252 on: February 08, 2011, 05:10:15 PM »
Yawn. We've been over visibility already.

People trying to defend easily capable gimps here is almost as sad and pathetic as what happens when a skilled player starts schooling people on traps. Specifically, by ignoring them, instead of wasting time and resources on them. And people feebly cling to traps, and make all manner of crazy statements to try to defend traps simply because it's all they know.

Same for scouts.

And to the guy who tried to bring military strategy into it: Lol, what?

Military strategy, on Earth is low level humans vs low level humans. Because that's what we have and fight here. The D&D world, obviously is not limited in this way. Modern military strategy has no answer for an Ice Devil. It has no concept of an Ice Devil. It doesn't even know what a fucking Ogre is.

You see, worlds that are drastically different evolve in drastically different ways. The military strategy, in a D&D world is a team of state sponsored superheroes, vs their team of state sponsored superheroes. Fuck armies. And when that team of PCs runs across something, chances are they don't have any fucking warning, and they don't get any fucking warning from mundane scouts in a world where all manner of creatures can make anything alive glow like a streetlamp, or instantly become aware of any minds within range, or sense a disturbance in the Force, or feel the quivering of approaching footsteps, or even something as innocent as the nose of a bloodhound, but the mind of a man. And if they have those things, themselves, then the result is that they both detect each other, but since the scout is alone he gets slaughtered... or you take the hint, don't scout, don't split the fucking party, and don't take a goddamn walking dead man (not to be confused with Undead) along to leech your XP and treasure. Then you either auto detect the enemy as they detect you, or not, but at least you're all there to fight the damn thing.
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[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

bkdubs123

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Re: Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?
« Reply #253 on: February 08, 2011, 05:23:37 PM »
Well, this has been constructive and informative, guys. Well done all around.

archangel.arcanis

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Re: Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?
« Reply #254 on: February 08, 2011, 05:25:41 PM »
stuff..
I'm not going to waste my breath. Time to find something else to look at.

Here I'll type your response for you:
Hi Welcome Herp Derp
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Re: Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?
« Reply #255 on: February 08, 2011, 06:11:15 PM »
Perhaps if you whine more about the real classes that are better than you, they'll get nerfed to your level of suck.

Except that oh wait, this isn't an MMO, so that fails too.
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There is no greater contribution than Hi Welcome.

Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.

IP proofing and avoiding being CAPed OR - how to make characters relevant in the long term.

Friends don't let friends be Short Bus Hobos.

[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

Ras F

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Re: Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?
« Reply #256 on: February 08, 2011, 06:15:33 PM »
A creature's mental stats are actually capped by its real life pilot mental stats :P

Unfortunately, this little tidbit always catches up to me.
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Brainpiercing

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Re: Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?
« Reply #257 on: February 08, 2011, 07:10:34 PM »

And to the guy who tried to bring military strategy into it: Lol, what?

Military strategy, on Earth is low level humans vs low level humans. Because that's what we have and fight here. The D&D world, obviously is not limited in this way. Modern military strategy has no answer for an Ice Devil. It has no concept of an Ice Devil. It doesn't even know what a fucking Ogre is.

You see, worlds that are drastically different evolve in drastically different ways. The military strategy, in a D&D world is a team of state sponsored superheroes, vs their team of state sponsored superheroes. Fuck armies. And when that team of PCs runs across something, chances are they don't have any fucking warning, and they don't get any fucking warning from mundane scouts in a world where all manner of creatures can make anything alive glow like a streetlamp, or instantly become aware of any minds within range, or sense a disturbance in the Force, or feel the quivering of approaching footsteps, or even something as innocent as the nose of a bloodhound, but the mind of a man. And if they have those things, themselves, then the result is that they both detect each other, but since the scout is alone he gets slaughtered... or you take the hint, don't scout, don't split the fucking party, and don't take a goddamn walking dead man (not to be confused with Undead) along to leech your XP and treasure. Then you either auto detect the enemy as they detect you, or not, but at least you're all there to fight the damn thing.

Oh, I do think we have a perfect recipe for Ogres, OR Ice Devils, it's called Aircraft and tanks, and a few little old things called guided missiles. Not even mentioning that a simple hand-grenade has a greater effective radius than a fireball. But whatever, that's not the point.

If you were running my group of state-sponsored super-heroes, then I would damn well insist you take someone along to scout the way. Why? Because I simply CAN'T be sure that you'll be able to beat everything you're going to meet, and I've invested a metric crapton of cash into you. And since I'm not sure of that, I'm going to send a more expendable troop in advance. And if the enemy pounces on that - and in your case of Ice Devil it would have done just that, kill the scout, alert the party to its presence, revealing itself to the more dangerous members, then I've won. (Because if you still don't understand that your Ice Devil is an idiot, then...)

So if you were to play a group in a game that I would be running (and it would have to be that kind of game) and simply waltz into everywhere, then you would eventually meet someone who is just not an appropriate fight. But if you had scouted ahead, maybe you could have avoided that. So that's the core of the matter: You can play your bullshit "never separate the party" game, because you expect to be able to win every fight as a party, but some you may just not be meant to win. Some may be set up to actually kill you if you meet them unprepared.

Now the question of whether I want to PLAY that scout, probably not in a game world like that. But in plenty of others, sure enough.

And finally: Lifesense: If you haven't understood how THAT works, then you're also an idiot. Anyone reading the feat should be aware that it HAS NO RANGE! You see that devil as soon he appears on the fucking horizon, shining like a VERY LARGE LIGHT, illuminating everything in a 120 foot radius of HIS position, and since snow is not entirely opaque, it would have shone through the snow. So your Cleric could have spotted it a LONG time ago, as would the Lifesense factotum. Mindsight doesn't even compare.

Sunic_Flames

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Re: Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?
« Reply #258 on: February 08, 2011, 07:32:22 PM »
And such a scout would require an equal investment, repaid every time he died (which by the way is all the fucking time).

Now, in such a situation, where you eventually run into something you cannot beat at all, then guess what?

Scouting fails even harder, because everything you do improves with level, therefore anything strong enough to be too much for the entire party to beat automatically annihilates the scout even if you pretend scouting is a good idea, and then it still fucking attacks the party. And likely annihilates them too.

Of course, no one has actually brought up an unbeatable encounter except you, and JaronK's +5 CR SPARKLY VAMPIRE, but if such a thing were used (and that, unlike the various lying claims here actually would make me a dick) then that makes scouting fail more, not less. After all, an example of a fight not meant to be winnable means you don't fight one Ice Devil. You fight a goddamn trio of them. You might as well give the encounter an ability that automatically annihilates any tier 3 or lower within visual range, no save.

Which again, means scouting fails even harder than it normally does.
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[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

BeholderSlayer

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Re: Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?
« Reply #259 on: February 08, 2011, 07:41:27 PM »
And finally: Lifesense: If you haven't understood how THAT works, then you're also an idiot. Anyone reading the feat should be aware that it HAS NO RANGE! You see that devil as soon he appears on the fucking horizon, shining like a VERY LARGE LIGHT, illuminating everything in a 120 foot radius of HIS position, and since snow is not entirely opaque, it would have shone through the snow. So your Cleric could have spotted it a LONG time ago, as would the Lifesense factotum. Mindsight doesn't even compare.
Technically, it was spotted a long time ago. I don't see what your point is, though. The only difference is that in one case the guy doing the spotting sucks, and in the other he is a cleric full caster.

Sunic isn't saying that the cleric is a better scout (although using divination magic, he is in fact, better), he is saying that the cleric pulled off the same trick while simultaneously making the lifesense factotum look like Skippy the Punk when all things are considered.
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[spoiler]
Allow me to welcome you both with my literal words and with an active display of how much you fit in by being tone deaf, dumb, and uncritical of your babbling myself.[/spoiler]