Author Topic: Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?  (Read 99529 times)

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RelentlessImp

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Re: Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?
« Reply #180 on: February 07, 2011, 06:58:53 PM »
I take it both you and Sunic assume the creature stops every 72 seconds to recast unholy aura. No that isn't BS logic at all.  :rollseyes
It's sitting and waiting to ambush. It takes only a mental effort to cast it. Why the fuck wouldn't it?

I concur. Intelligence: 22.
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Re: Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?
« Reply #181 on: February 07, 2011, 06:59:54 PM »
Yes, it has 14 touch AC.
Quote from: Above Link

It has 18 Touch.

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Well excuse me for my oversight, instead of almost always hitting with entangling ectoplasm, the Factotum is almost always hitting with entangling ectoplasm.  The mere fact that the Factotum has found, identified, and alerted the party to the presence of a Gelugon that they will promptly ROFLSTOMP in 1 round while suffering virtually no harm himself is what's important here, anyway.

Sunic_Flames

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Re: Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?
« Reply #182 on: February 07, 2011, 07:09:33 PM »
I think in the end it boils down just like beatsticks. At a certain level they become so outclassed they are irrelevant. And this happens to stealth BEFORE it happens to beatsticks.

Sunic, how do you feel about stealthing around at level 1,2 or 3?

At levels 1-3...

You must use one of your 1-3 feats on Darkstalker, or you are automatically owned by guard dogs. I hope no one here is honestly going to pull a Paizil and claim guard dogs are not a reasonable encounter for such parties. Can you even take Darkstalker at these levels? I forget what prereqs it has.

You cannot throw enemies off the RNG, which means you have a damn good chance to just be seen.

You are low level, and therefore go splat easily. As a rather entertaining post on the Paizil boards went, "...And then the dog barks, and the gimp dies." The idea being he tries to scout, just gets spotted normally by some guy and his guard dog, and the dog tears him apart. Meanwhile the guy hits an alarm gong.

Now remember my post here from the beginning is that you have to throw enemies straight off the RNG, and hope they have no I win abilities, or you auto lose. That's because they're getting chances to spot you every single round, as long as you're there (and since you have to move at half speed, or else take penalties that means an even longer time) and only need to succeed once. So either 0%, or Iterative Probability makes it damn near 100%. Stealth is binary like that. If they do have an I win button you auto lose regardless. And Darkstalker only blocks some of the auto win abilities.

As for things like Death Ward, those are better handled by zerging the dungeon, aka you respect the time limit.

I think all Sunic has proven is that in Tier 2 to Tier 1 game environments stealth characters, such as The Scout, er Corpse, are utterly pointless. In Tier 3 games, which it seems like most people here prefer, I would argue that Scout characters are much more viable.

Except that Tier 1s and 2s can also be scouts. In fact a Druid is far superior to any of Jaron's gimps. However even the mighty Druid scout fails, because the problem is with scouting, and with having to solo encounters meant for groups. I mean fuck, I wouldn't even consider soloing an Ice Devil with a level 10 Attec, and at least one person here knows how crazy he was (let's pretend Ciao and Kendang also were good at sneaking, here).

I love how people are lowballing the enemy stats by the way. With 0 modification, it has AC 36, touch AC 18. Saves are all 18 or 19. Not to mention, it has around 17k in loot, and armor is cheap as free. The terribly gimpy Warblade (and yes, any beatstick with only +20 to hit at level 10 is a gimp) rolls a 20 or misses.

So the Dorje thingy hits 70% of the time, assuming it's a stock mob. I'll give you a hint: to hit touch AC 18 missed. 25 and 27 hit. So that's a number between 19 and 25, inclusive. No, I'm not telling you the exact number. That's information my players would not know.

And ok, the Factorum finds and identifies it. He is promptly ROFLstomped. Regardless of whether the party then ROFLstomps the devil, he still suffers from scouting fail.

Meanwhile, what actually happened in the actual game is that the party proceeded together, the undead Cleric auto spotted the Ice Devil, and is also you know, a Cleric and not a gimp. Right now, it's about even, but I'm quite certain the party will win this one.
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Midnight_v

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Re: Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?
« Reply #183 on: February 07, 2011, 07:14:29 PM »
Quote
The Warblade, not needing to charge, full attacks with his +2 Greatsword with his attack bonuses of +20/+15/+10/+5, impressive for 10th level,
 :twitch
I might have missed something but, Ice devil is a cr 13 monster. At which point the warblade likely has swooping dragon strike. Or could have the undead ... Edit: I got ninja'd
Second This:
 
Quote
The Warblade, not needing to charge, full attacks
 :shakefist
I'm not happy with this at this wrongful scenario at all.
When do warblades lead with full attacks?
There are numerous manuvers he could do, at 13th level.  Not to mention something like shocktrooper or standstill. Even without specific feats though that's just so wrong, bro. I see the classes you write so you should know that initiators don't lead with full attacks. Like ever.


Ninja'd by reasonable "Ice Devil" dead scenario's but that damn thing is cr 13 not 10.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2011, 07:19:18 PM by Midnight_v »
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archangel.arcanis

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Re: Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?
« Reply #184 on: February 07, 2011, 07:37:32 PM »
I take it both you and Sunic assume the creature stops every 72 seconds to recast unholy aura. No that isn't BS logic at all.  :rollseyes
It's sitting and waiting to ambush. It takes only a mental effort to cast it. Why the fuck wouldn't it?

I concur. Intelligence: 22.
my point is irrelevant as it is accepted that it would have it up.
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Midnight_v

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Re: Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?
« Reply #185 on: February 07, 2011, 07:40:35 PM »
It... it just seems like one of those "always on" things if its at will, and the monster isn't an idiot.
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Bauglir

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Re: Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?
« Reply #186 on: February 07, 2011, 07:48:56 PM »
Is the DM going to remember that the spell expires on round 1d12 (unless the Ice Devil was going to be able to track them from further away than I'm given to understand, and thus put the spell up the instant before combat began)? I mean, yeah, there's something like a 75% chance that it won't actually matter, but still, it's something to keep in mind, if the Gelugon is just casting it every time it runs out (which is a reasonable thing to do while waiting in ambush).
So you end up stuck in an endless loop, unable to act, forever.

In retrospect, much like Keanu Reeves.

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Re: Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?
« Reply #187 on: February 07, 2011, 07:50:46 PM »
So the Dorje thingy hits 70% of the time, assuming it's a stock mob. I'll give you a hint: to hit touch AC 18 missed. 25 and 27 hit. So that's a number between 19 and 25, inclusive. No, I'm not telling you the exact number. That's information my players would not know.

And ok, the Factorum finds and identifies it. He is promptly ROFLstomped. Regardless of whether the party then ROFLstomps the devil, he still suffers from scouting fail.

Meanwhile, what actually happened in the actual game is that the party proceeded together, the undead Cleric auto spotted the Ice Devil, and is also you know, a Cleric and not a gimp. Right now, it's about even, but I'm quite certain the party will win this one.
Who's doing the bullshit hand waving now?  I'd never play a game you're DMing because you suck at life, and as such I'm offended by the prospect of being called 'your player.'

For the sake of what's really going on here, just forget about the Djore, we'll just have the Factotum do total defense.  Or hell, we'll have him eat 15gp for no good reason as a standard action.  Entangled or not, the Gelugon is going to die.

Away from the battle, the party responds to the ambush: the Bard casts Haste, the Cleric casts Mass Align Weapon, and the Wizard delays to cast Dimension Door after the Gelugon's turn.  Now the Beatstick is pouncing the Gelugon at the end of Round 1.  I quote Sunic_Flames in noting that AC is meaningless, therefore the Beatstick deals 100 damage.  There's an entire ToB build compendium that you could reference for some sickly damaging builds.  If the guy happens to be a Friendly Berserker then he's dealing 200 damage instead of 100 and the Gelugon is in tiny pieces on the ground.  If not, the Factotum uses his now good-aligned Bow with Manyshot to deal, say, 26 damage per volley (two arrows, so 2d8+2(+1 enhance)+12(+6 Int)+2(+1 Str)+1(PBS), repeating up to 3 times with Cunning Surge to put it down.

archangel.arcanis

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Re: Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?
« Reply #188 on: February 07, 2011, 07:53:08 PM »
It... it just seems like one of those "always on" things if its at will, and the monster isn't an idiot.
It is a meta thought process. Sure the monster has that capability but as a sentient creature it would probably get bored of doing it constantly when 99.999% of the time it was a waste of effort.
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RelentlessImp

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Re: Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?
« Reply #189 on: February 07, 2011, 07:54:28 PM »
It... it just seems like one of those "always on" things if its at will, and the monster isn't an idiot.
It is a meta thought process. Sure the monster has that capability but as a sentient creature it would probably get bored of doing it constantly when 99.999% of the time it was a waste of effort.

It's a devil. It's a freaking devil. Go read Fiendish Codex II about the kind of "society" devils live in, and then tell me extreme paranoia isn't the norm.
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wotmaniac

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Re: Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?
« Reply #190 on: February 07, 2011, 07:58:44 PM »
It... it just seems like one of those "always on" things if its at will, and the monster isn't an idiot.
It is a meta thought process. Sure the monster has that capability but as a sentient creature it would probably get bored of doing it constantly when 99.999% of the time it was a waste of effort.

It's a devil. It's a freaking devil. Go read Fiendish Codex II about the kind of "society" devils live in, and then tell me extreme paranoia isn't the norm.
yeah, I'm gonna have to kinda concur with this one .... eventually it would just become Pavlovian reflex.

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RelentlessImp

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Re: Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?
« Reply #191 on: February 07, 2011, 08:01:08 PM »
It... it just seems like one of those "always on" things if its at will, and the monster isn't an idiot.
It is a meta thought process. Sure the monster has that capability but as a sentient creature it would probably get bored of doing it constantly when 99.999% of the time it was a waste of effort.

It's a devil. It's a freaking devil. Go read Fiendish Codex II about the kind of "society" devils live in, and then tell me extreme paranoia isn't the norm.
yeah, I'm gonna have to kinda concur with this one .... eventually it would just become Pavlovian reflex.

And remember, devils are the nice ones. Demons and daemons? Forget about it.
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Ras F

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Re: Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?
« Reply #192 on: February 07, 2011, 08:08:09 PM »
I'm not following what WBL this Gelugon is using. Is it using the PC's level (10) as an anchor, to get the 16k? Is it using it's CR? (35k) Is it using it's HD? (45k) Did I overlook something entirely? Any clarification would be appreciated.
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Sunic_Flames

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Re: Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?
« Reply #193 on: February 07, 2011, 08:09:51 PM »
Is the DM going to remember that the spell expires on round 1d12 (unless the Ice Devil was going to be able to track them from further away than I'm given to understand, and thus put the spell up the instant before combat began)? I mean, yeah, there's something like a 75% chance that it won't actually matter, but still, it's something to keep in mind, if the Gelugon is just casting it every time it runs out (which is a reasonable thing to do while waiting in ambush).

The spell actually lasts 13 rounds, not 12. And given that it is expecting combat, as evidenced by the whole hiding and waiting it is a simple matter to say... cast it every 6, or 9, or some number that is less than 13. Therefore, it will have a minimum duration > the combat length. Yes, it's something I, as a 16 Int DM thought of. Yes, the 22 Int Ice Devil also thought of it.

So the Dorje thingy hits 70% of the time, assuming it's a stock mob. I'll give you a hint: to hit touch AC 18 missed. 25 and 27 hit. So that's a number between 19 and 25, inclusive. No, I'm not telling you the exact number. That's information my players would not know.

And ok, the Factorum finds and identifies it. He is promptly ROFLstomped. Regardless of whether the party then ROFLstomps the devil, he still suffers from scouting fail.

Meanwhile, what actually happened in the actual game is that the party proceeded together, the undead Cleric auto spotted the Ice Devil, and is also you know, a Cleric and not a gimp. Right now, it's about even, but I'm quite certain the party will win this one.
Who's doing the bullshit hand waving now?  I'd never play a game you're DMing because you suck at life, and as such I'm offended by the prospect of being called 'your player.'

I know you fail at life, you don't have to remind me.

Quote
For the sake of what's really going on here, just forget about the Djore, we'll just have the Factotum do total defense.  Or hell, we'll have him eat 15gp for no good reason as a standard action.  Entangled or not, the Gelugon is going to die.

Ok, he total defenses. He still gets auto hit and torn apart, despite his Turtle Fail.

Quote
Away from the battle, the party responds to the ambush: the Bard casts Haste, the Cleric casts Mass Align Weapon, and the Wizard delays to cast Dimension Door after the Gelugon's turn.  Now the Beatstick is pouncing the Gelugon at the end of Round 1.  I quote Sunic_Flames in noting that AC is meaningless, therefore the Beatstick deals 100 damage.  There's an entire ToB build compendium that you could reference for some sickly damaging builds.  If the guy happens to be a Friendly Berserker then he's dealing 200 damage instead of 100 and the Gelugon is in tiny pieces on the ground.  If not, the Factotum uses his now good-aligned Bow with Manyshot to deal, say, 26 damage per volley (two arrows, so 2d8+2(+1 enhance)+12(+6 Int)+2(+1 Str)+1(PBS), repeating up to 3 times with Cunning Surge to put it down.

There is no Bard, Mass Align Weapon is not prepared. The beatstick has a to hit in the 40s? It's certainly possible, but you lack the competence to make it so. Your pewpewpew meanwhile misses or tickles it. I'm also being nice to you, and assuming everyone is neutral, otherwise they save or lose every time they do hit it.

As for its WBL, the Gelugon is stated to have Standard treasure. For a CR 13, that's about 17k. It also has a Large Spear, but since that is literally 4 gold it doesn't matter much.
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Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

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[/spoiler]

Kajhera

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Re: Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?
« Reply #194 on: February 07, 2011, 08:12:38 PM »
Prerequisites for Darkstalker: Nothing whatsoever.
So yea. If everything with Telepathy's got Mindsight because it's sensible, everything that plans to make a Hide check probably has Darkstalker eventually.

Glancing at some low-level numbers, I'm thinking the critter that would be most alert to scouts per CR is the bat ... with blindsense 20', +8 to spot and listen, and CR 1/10.  :p I'm not sure what relevance this has.

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Re: Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?
« Reply #195 on: February 07, 2011, 08:14:54 PM »
Page 51, I see. Thanks.
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Brainpiercing

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Re: Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?
« Reply #197 on: February 07, 2011, 08:32:55 PM »

There is no Bard, Mass Align Weapon is not prepared. The beatstick has a to hit in the 40s? It's certainly possible, but you lack the competence to make it so. Your pewpewpew meanwhile misses or tickles it. I'm also being nice to you, and assuming everyone is neutral, otherwise they save or lose every time they do hit it.
So maybe this party of yours just sucks? Don't you get it that ONE fracking specific example does NOT prove a point?

Fact of the matter, YOU don't want scouting to succeed, and as long as you're GM, it won't. Simple as that. But OTHER GMs just might to LIKE it to work, and hence, when a player comes to them and says "I'd like to play a guy who does recon, etc.", then they'll accomodate him. Give him advice, maybe, caution him about the danger, oh yes, but accomodate him, in that they change their holy game so that the player can have some fun. Which is the entire point, and not masturbating about the awesomeness of ice devils buried in snow.


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Re: Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?
« Reply #198 on: February 07, 2011, 08:34:39 PM »
Ok, he total defenses. He still gets auto hit and torn apart, despite his Turtle Fail.

...

The beatstick has a to hit in the 40s? It's certainly possible, but you lack the competence to make it so.
Reconcile these two statements for me.  Monsters get to ignore AC, but it's an insurmountable barrier that PCs will never overcome?

For the last time I've made the mistake of assuming you were making an actual coherent argument.

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Re: Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?
« Reply #199 on: February 07, 2011, 09:02:33 PM »
Prerequisites for Darkstalker: Nothing whatsoever.
So yea. If everything with Telepathy's got Mindsight because it's sensible, everything that plans to make a Hide check probably has Darkstalker eventually.

Glancing at some low-level numbers, I'm thinking the critter that would be most alert to scouts per CR is the bat ... with blindsense 20', +8 to spot and listen, and CR 1/10.  :p I'm not sure what relevance this has.

Ok, so you can have Darkstalker. There's only 0-2 feats left though. And since everyone is mentioning things like Whisper Gnomes and not say, humans, that most likely means 0, as no racial bonus feat. Riding dogs have +5 spot (hey, look on the bright side... you aren't dealing with Pathfailure dogs, who were buffed to have +8 to gimp spotting). Not great, but see Iterative Probability.


There is no Bard, Mass Align Weapon is not prepared. The beatstick has a to hit in the 40s? It's certainly possible, but you lack the competence to make it so. Your pewpewpew meanwhile misses or tickles it. I'm also being nice to you, and assuming everyone is neutral, otherwise they save or lose every time they do hit it.
So maybe this party of yours just sucks? Don't you get it that ONE fracking specific example does NOT prove a point?

Fact of the matter, YOU don't want scouting to succeed, and as long as you're GM, it won't. Simple as that. But OTHER GMs just might to LIKE it to work, and hence, when a player comes to them and says "I'd like to play a guy who does recon, etc.", then they'll accomodate him. Give him advice, maybe, caution him about the danger, oh yes, but accomodate him, in that they change their holy game so that the player can have some fun. Which is the entire point, and not masturbating about the awesomeness of ice devils buried in snow.



No, but yours does. These guys have already casually dismantled CR +1 and CR +2 encounters. That's what being competent means, you see. I was quite impressed with the systematic annihilation actually. They only got attacked twice, total, and one was an AoO. Over the entire campaign so far. Which, admittedly is not very long. But still, they're fucking awesome. You however fail, and suck a barrel of cocks.

The rest is you whining, flailing, lying, whining, demanding coddling, and generally being a mouth breathing fuckwit, instead of a worthwhile person.

Ok, he total defenses. He still gets auto hit and torn apart, despite his Turtle Fail.

...

The beatstick has a to hit in the 40s? It's certainly possible, but you lack the competence to make it so.
Reconcile these two statements for me.  Monsters get to ignore AC, but it's an insurmountable barrier that PCs will never overcome?

For the last time I've made the mistake of assuming you were making an actual coherent argument.

Hi Welcome

Enemies have more AC than you.

For example, the stock mob Ice Devil has 36/18/31. Always on, barring a Dispel, in which case all numbers drop by 4. It uses 2,200 gold, out of its 17,000 (that's slightly more than 10%, since I know you're in the Paizilish Math Is Hard club) wealth on a Large Mithril Chain Shirt. It now has an AC of 40/18/35. Its save line, meanwhile is 19/18/19, so it's hardly picking on the beatsticks. It's trying to shut down everyone. And remember, stock mob. These numbers can easily be raised. So that's everything shut down but touch attacks. Except oh wait, an 18 missed, so it's not a stock mob now is it? Even if it were though, 36 means the super gimpy warblade hits on a 16/20/20/20, the Factorum unleashes a Flurry of Fail, and a whole lot of nothing happens. 40, of course means 20 or bust. This is because +20 to hit is only a good number if you go straight to touch AC.

PCs, meanwhile do not have 40 AC. Not at 10, and not at 13. Optimized ones will have about... 30. I'll give you a hint: The Ice Devil's to hit is higher than +20. But even if it were not, auto hitting a Factorum would not be hard. Auto hitting one of the few enemy types that has a decent AC? Not so much.
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There is no greater contribution than Hi Welcome.

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Friends don't let friends be Short Bus Hobos.

[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]