Author Topic: Challenging 3.5 and Pathfinder Parties in Practice  (Read 25529 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

lans

  • King Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 886
    • Email
Re: Challenging 3.5 and Pathfinder Parties in Practice
« Reply #140 on: February 09, 2011, 01:59:00 AM »
While I was actually joking when I Hi Welcomed you, you did kinda forget there was two orcs...
Ahh, but you said
Quote
even on a one Orc per healer basis.
, with a more optimized route an Azurin Healer with a feat to shape theuraputic mantle and an aura would heal d8+1 caster level+3 healing hands+3 from mantle for 11.5 vs 11.2. Could add in a trait for another 1 point to healing. The full plate is actually +1 full plate, so thats 1 higher AC, add in a 12 dex for another point. If the person who was providing the full plate took a flaw it would provide 2/piercing to him.

At 7th level the Healer could heal 40 with a Cure Critical. 4d8+8 base, +4 from healing hands, +10 from mantle. Add in the draconic healing aura for another 7 on people below half. So, 47 a round with C.Crit, 42.5 with C. Serious, and 38 with cure moderate. An earth elemental does 40

Then there is debuffing to consider, a 7th level Bard can give -10 to hit with a save to resist of 21 with 18 charisma.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2011, 02:11:27 AM by lans »
Skill prodigy from Kingdoms of Kalamar

Kajhera

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1167
Re: Challenging 3.5 and Pathfinder Parties in Practice
« Reply #141 on: February 09, 2011, 10:06:09 AM »
While I was actually joking when I Hi Welcomed you, you did kinda forget there was two orcs...
Ahh, but you said
Quote
even on a one Orc per healer basis.
, with a more optimized route an Azurin Healer with a feat to shape theuraputic mantle and an aura would heal d8+1 caster level+3 healing hands+3 from mantle for 11.5 vs 11.2. Could add in a trait for another 1 point to healing. The full plate is actually +1 full plate, so thats 1 higher AC, add in a 12 dex for another point. If the person who was providing the full plate took a flaw it would provide 2/piercing to him.

At 7th level the Healer could heal 40 with a Cure Critical. 4d8+8 base, +4 from healing hands, +10 from mantle. Add in the draconic healing aura for another 7 on people below half. So, 47 a round with C.Crit, 42.5 with C. Serious, and 38 with cure moderate. An earth elemental does 40

Then there is debuffing to consider, a 7th level Bard can give -10 to hit with a save to resist of 21 with 18 charisma.

...Are we optimizing healing in order to out-heal the DPS of CR 1/2 orcs now?  ??? That sounds ... like an NPC I would want to have in the party at least I admit.

The bard swearing at things to debuff them makes this party increasingly entertaining, but we're still probably gonna need some way to actually fight the orc warriors / earth elemental.

Sunic_Flames

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 4782
  • The Crusader of Logic.
Re: Challenging 3.5 and Pathfinder Parties in Practice
« Reply #142 on: February 09, 2011, 10:48:15 AM »
I mentioned the even on a 1 Orc per healer basis to illustrate that even if you succeed, you still fail. After all, there are PLENTY of instances, even in routine encounters where enemies can just focus fire on the same person and drop them in one round. They are most common at level 1 though, mostly because you can't do anything about them. Anything harder than routine makes it worse. The solution, of course is to use mitigation measures that actually work.

Now I was speaking with someone who has no D&D experience last night. Even she knew how things were "supposed" to work. She did not know how things actually did work. I told her. She was very surprised and amused. The bit about the Cleric went something like this:

Me: The Cleric, by the way is meant to be a heal bitch. Guess what they're supposed to be doing?
Her: Going in the thick of it?
Me: Well that's one answer, but the answer is actually "anything other than healing". Buffing the party actually provides enough mitigation to help. Casting offensive magic on the enemy actually provides enough mitigation to help. Going in there and fighting the enemy actually provides enough mitigation to help. Healing means they still take more damage than you heal and still die. As an added bonus, actually doing things is more fun than being a heal bitch.

I forgot to mention this was in combat, and out of combat healing is not subjected to this. But it was kind of implied by the terms, and she's smart, so she likely knew what I meant.
Smiting Imbeciles since 1985.

If you hear this music, run.

And don't forget:


There is no greater contribution than Hi Welcome.

Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.

IP proofing and avoiding being CAPed OR - how to make characters relevant in the long term.

Friends don't let friends be Short Bus Hobos.

[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

lans

  • King Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 886
    • Email
Re: Challenging 3.5 and Pathfinder Parties in Practice
« Reply #143 on: February 09, 2011, 11:31:38 AM »
While I was actually joking when I Hi Welcomed you, you did kinda forget there was two orcs...
Ahh, but you said
Quote
even on a one Orc per healer basis.
, with a more optimized route an Azurin Healer with a feat to shape theuraputic mantle and an aura would heal d8+1 caster level+3 healing hands+3 from mantle for 11.5 vs 11.2. Could add in a trait for another 1 point to healing. The full plate is actually +1 full plate, so thats 1 higher AC, add in a 12 dex for another point. If the person who was providing the full plate took a flaw it would provide 2/piercing to him.

At 7th level the Healer could heal 40 with a Cure Critical. 4d8+8 base, +4 from healing hands, +10 from mantle. Add in the draconic healing aura for another 7 on people below half. So, 47 a round with C.Crit, 42.5 with C. Serious, and 38 with cure moderate. An earth elemental does 40

Then there is debuffing to consider, a 7th level Bard can give -10 to hit with a save to resist of 21 with 18 charisma.

...Are we optimizing healing in order to out-heal the DPS of CR 1/2 orcs now?  ??? That sounds ... like an NPC I would want to have in the party at least I admit.

It also out heals stock ogres. At level 1. Though I had the numbers wrong for the cures below C.Crit for the earth elemental. Serious should be 41.5, moderate should be 37.
Skill prodigy from Kingdoms of Kalamar

Kajhera

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1167
Re: Challenging 3.5 and Pathfinder Parties in Practice
« Reply #144 on: February 09, 2011, 11:35:05 AM »
While I was actually joking when I Hi Welcomed you, you did kinda forget there was two orcs...
Ahh, but you said
Quote
even on a one Orc per healer basis.
, with a more optimized route an Azurin Healer with a feat to shape theuraputic mantle and an aura would heal d8+1 caster level+3 healing hands+3 from mantle for 11.5 vs 11.2. Could add in a trait for another 1 point to healing. The full plate is actually +1 full plate, so thats 1 higher AC, add in a 12 dex for another point. If the person who was providing the full plate took a flaw it would provide 2/piercing to him.

At 7th level the Healer could heal 40 with a Cure Critical. 4d8+8 base, +4 from healing hands, +10 from mantle. Add in the draconic healing aura for another 7 on people below half. So, 47 a round with C.Crit, 42.5 with C. Serious, and 38 with cure moderate. An earth elemental does 40

Then there is debuffing to consider, a 7th level Bard can give -10 to hit with a save to resist of 21 with 18 charisma.

...Are we optimizing healing in order to out-heal the DPS of CR 1/2 orcs now?  ??? That sounds ... like an NPC I would want to have in the party at least I admit.

It also out heals stock ogres. At level 1. Though I had the numbers wrong for the cures below C.Crit for the earth elemental. Serious should be 41.5, moderate should be 37.

Ooh. Maybe I should get one as a follower and carry him around in my pocket. Erm if I can find a way to get our relative sizes that way.

Sunic_Flames

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 4782
  • The Crusader of Logic.
Re: Challenging 3.5 and Pathfinder Parties in Practice
« Reply #145 on: February 09, 2011, 11:35:28 AM »
Ogre does 2d8+9. That's 11-25. So no, no it fucking doesn't, because it can just take level 1s full to dead in one shot.
Smiting Imbeciles since 1985.

If you hear this music, run.

And don't forget:


There is no greater contribution than Hi Welcome.

Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.

IP proofing and avoiding being CAPed OR - how to make characters relevant in the long term.

Friends don't let friends be Short Bus Hobos.

[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

bearsarebrown

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 2616
Re: Challenging 3.5 and Pathfinder Parties in Practice
« Reply #146 on: February 09, 2011, 11:42:19 AM »
Sunic would you agree that level 4-6 are the least Rocket-Taggy? Maybe 4-8? Immediate actions have just come online and you finally have a good amount of HP compared to weapon damage.

lans

  • King Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 886
    • Email
Re: Challenging 3.5 and Pathfinder Parties in Practice
« Reply #147 on: February 09, 2011, 11:47:02 AM »
Ogre does 2d8+9. That's 11-25. So no, no it fucking doesn't, because it can just take level 1s full to dead in one shot.
And its average damage is 18*3 for 5.4 a round. We weren't talking reality land here, just HPR vs DPR.
Skill prodigy from Kingdoms of Kalamar

Sunic_Flames

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 4782
  • The Crusader of Logic.
Re: Challenging 3.5 and Pathfinder Parties in Practice
« Reply #148 on: February 09, 2011, 12:12:36 PM »
Sunic would you agree that level 4-6 are the least Rocket-Taggy? Maybe 4-8? Immediate actions have just come online and you finally have a good amount of HP compared to weapon damage.

Not really.

You have a reduced chance of being taken out in one hit from an auto attack. Enemies at this level can full attack. You still have bad saves, and can be easily shut down by Glitterdust/Slow/Web... You don't really have immunities yet. You don't have a lot of Immediate action defenses. You might even have none.

Believe it or not, Rocket Tag is lowest at the HIGHEST levels. Sure, you get hit by a rocket, you fucking die. You have a lot more means to avoid this, however.
Smiting Imbeciles since 1985.

If you hear this music, run.

And don't forget:


There is no greater contribution than Hi Welcome.

Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.

IP proofing and avoiding being CAPed OR - how to make characters relevant in the long term.

Friends don't let friends be Short Bus Hobos.

[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

veekie

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 9034
  • WARNING: Homing Miko
Re: Challenging 3.5 and Pathfinder Parties in Practice
« Reply #149 on: February 09, 2011, 12:21:11 PM »
Lots more rockets flying around is the difference though. I think I concur with the 4-8 level being lightest on rocket tag. The simple version has just expired(pure blind luck) and the sheer volume of approaches(particularly angles that can kill you with no save, which MUST be guarded) that come with the teen levels have yet to arrive.
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."

Sunic_Flames

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 4782
  • The Crusader of Logic.
Re: Challenging 3.5 and Pathfinder Parties in Practice
« Reply #150 on: February 09, 2011, 01:39:23 PM »
Not really. At most there's Swift action spells, which are lower DC, and can be done via other means anyways.

I mean, I've seen high level characters literally take a hundred spells to the face without a scratch. And I don't mean crap like CL 1 Magic Missile when you have a Shield spell. I mean good spells, often save or loses.

Nothing lower comes close in protection vs rocket tag.
Smiting Imbeciles since 1985.

If you hear this music, run.

And don't forget:


There is no greater contribution than Hi Welcome.

Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.

IP proofing and avoiding being CAPed OR - how to make characters relevant in the long term.

Friends don't let friends be Short Bus Hobos.

[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

PowerMaster

  • Monkey bussiness
  • *
  • Posts: 7
Re: Challenging 3.5 and Pathfinder Parties in Practice
« Reply #151 on: February 12, 2011, 04:52:50 PM »
Thanks my friend, downloaded and reading in progress...
In the name of Master, the Power and the Play... INITIATIVE!