Author Topic: Challenging 3.5 and Pathfinder Parties in Practice  (Read 25544 times)

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Bester

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Re: Challenging 3.5 and Pathfinder Parties in Practice
« Reply #120 on: February 08, 2011, 03:55:25 PM »
Stop putting words in my mouth, I don't even know how 4ed works.

 :lmao You too huh?  I had the books preordered from day 1 and when they arrived....I opened them up and saw world of warcrack in pnp.

I can honestly say, I don't even know how 4ed works!  Poorly I'd imagine...

Pimpforged

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Re: Challenging 3.5 and Pathfinder Parties in Practice
« Reply #121 on: February 08, 2011, 04:08:28 PM »
Stop putting words in my mouth, I don't even know how 4ed works.

 :lmao You too huh?  I had the books preordered from day 1 and when they arrived....I opened them up and saw world of warcrack in pnp.

I can honestly say, I don't even know how 4ed works!  Poorly I'd imagine...

I disagree, you've already grasped the basic concept.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2011, 04:11:19 PM by Pimpforged »

dark_samuari

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Re: Challenging 3.5 and Pathfinder Parties in Practice
« Reply #122 on: February 08, 2011, 04:10:46 PM »
Also you should try to upgrade your smiting technique but it seems my kind, you know being the King and all, have taken over. We are immune to your ways.

Immune to logic, or immune to intelligent thought? Either way, yes, you've certainly proved that.
See how easy it is to snap a little comment off that belittles your opponent's stance while providing nothing constructive to the dialogue? Even I can do it!

My personal mind blank protects me from all.
And here you will find my ability to find humor in such exchanges as opposed to some others.

oslecamo

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Re: Challenging 3.5 and Pathfinder Parties in Practice
« Reply #123 on: February 08, 2011, 04:29:42 PM »
@Sunic
A question:
What would you do with a group of inexperienced players that are not interested in optimization? Kill them again and again? Because I'm faced with that situation as the DM of my group. If I didn't coddle them, they would repeatedly die. That wouldn't be fun for them, I think, and neither would I enjoy it.

Gradually ramp up the difficulty. Teach them what's unoptimal and what's optimal. Overall, though, if you're enjoying your game, then play it that way. But don't try to force those views on those of us who don't play the same way. That's basically the entirety of this argument: People are throwing "their game" as an example rather than how the rules work unmodified. Except Sunic, whose arguments are actually based on the base mechanics of the game we're all playing.
He really isn't. He's ignoring:
-Quest/roleplaying exp, wich yes, the DMG says to give out now and then, and is thus a base mechanic.
-Players are expected to die. That's why we have relatively cheap raise dead.
-Many monsters are expected to be played in a stupid way, as written in their own stat blocks. A golem for example is "incapable of any strategy and tactics" acording to it's own entry, so even if you're a commoner, defeating the golem is a matter of patience and out-thinking it. Kiting or luring it in a hole grants 100% win rate as long as you're smart, whitout need of character optimization. And there's plenty of more mindless  "incapable of any strategy and tactics" monsters out there.

BeholderSlayer

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Re: Challenging 3.5 and Pathfinder Parties in Practice
« Reply #124 on: February 08, 2011, 04:50:41 PM »
He doesn't actually ignore that stuff. It's just that monsters like that are comparatively uncommon. As somebody with direct experience in a game run by Sunic, I can tell you that each monster type behaves appropriately for their INT score and tendencies.

I don't know where you got the idea that he ignores quest/roleplaying XP. The comment is also fairly irrelevant. When players already roleplay adequately, rewarding them for doing it more is redundant.

Players are expected to die? Wow, well, I am glad I don't play in games like that, and I tend to enjoy high-powered games with high levels of difficulty. This is where the concept of IP proofing comes in...you are expected to make characters that can stay alive, not characters that die regularly.
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[spoiler]
Allow me to welcome you both with my literal words and with an active display of how much you fit in by being tone deaf, dumb, and uncritical of your babbling myself.[/spoiler]

dark_samuari

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Re: Challenging 3.5 and Pathfinder Parties in Practice
« Reply #125 on: February 08, 2011, 05:02:48 PM »
Players are expected to die? Wow, well, I am glad I don't play in games like that, and I tend to enjoy high-powered games with high levels of difficulty. This is where the concept of IP proofing comes in...you are expected to make characters that can stay alive, not characters that die regularly.

All characters eventually die.

Sunic_Flames

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Re: Challenging 3.5 and Pathfinder Parties in Practice
« Reply #126 on: February 08, 2011, 05:15:33 PM »
Skipping past more herp derp from the whine and flailer.

Regarding golems, yes they are incapable of any strategy and tactics. They are also incapable of any sort of independent thought, being mindless creatures. And this is why even high level golems get trivialized by mages - who they are supposedly good against, using very low level spells like Obscuring Mist, Silent Image, and Grease.

Mindless creatures are not in fact the norm. If anything, the norm is enemies smarter than the average person. And if you DO encounter mindless creatures, such as a golem, chances are someone who is intelligent, and tells it what to do (like say, the mage that made it) is not far away.

He doesn't actually ignore that stuff. It's just that monsters like that are comparatively uncommon. As somebody with direct experience in a game run by Sunic, I can tell you that each monster type behaves appropriately for their INT score and tendencies.

I don't know where you got the idea that he ignores quest/roleplaying XP. The comment is also fairly irrelevant. When players already roleplay adequately, rewarding them for doing it more is redundant.

Players are expected to die? Wow, well, I am glad I don't play in games like that, and I tend to enjoy high-powered games with high levels of difficulty. This is where the concept of IP proofing comes in...you are expected to make characters that can stay alive, not characters that die regularly.

For the record, he is in both of the games I am running. And yes, he's exactly right.
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There is no greater contribution than Hi Welcome.

Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.

IP proofing and avoiding being CAPed OR - how to make characters relevant in the long term.

Friends don't let friends be Short Bus Hobos.

[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

BeholderSlayer

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Re: Challenging 3.5 and Pathfinder Parties in Practice
« Reply #127 on: February 08, 2011, 05:19:36 PM »
Players are expected to die? Wow, well, I am glad I don't play in games like that, and I tend to enjoy high-powered games with high levels of difficulty. This is where the concept of IP proofing comes in...you are expected to make characters that can stay alive, not characters that die regularly.

All characters eventually die.

Do they?
Hi Welcome
[spoiler]
Allow me to welcome you both with my literal words and with an active display of how much you fit in by being tone deaf, dumb, and uncritical of your babbling myself.[/spoiler]

lans

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Re: Challenging 3.5 and Pathfinder Parties in Practice
« Reply #128 on: February 08, 2011, 05:25:01 PM »

Also, the part about not starting at level 1: You have anywhere between 6 (d4, 14 con) and 17 (d12, 20 con) HP. An Orc Warrior (CR 1/2) deals 2d4+4 with a to-hit of +4. That's 6-12 damage, at a level where you have 6-17hp, and not enough gold to purchase decent armor (Chain Shirt, 100gp. Breastplate, 200. Full Plate, 1500.) That means your AC is pretty abysmal, and they have a good chance to hit you.

Is CR 1/2 too high? How about a Goblin? They only have a +2 with a 1d6 weapon, CR 1/3.
My issue with this is that players don't die at 0 and there is an expectant 4 of them. So the wizard might take 12 and be at -8, and still not die.  With crappy for level armor the monsters have about a 50/50 chance of hitting you.

Not to say that their aren't rockets, I'm not sure if any character can take a crit from an orc  barbarian at level 1 besides select conjurers.


If the caster is playing blaster, he fails. Especially at level 1. Because he showed up to a game of RLT with no rockets. The healer also fails, as a single enemy out DPSes curing spells at every single level except 11-15, when you have the Heal spell. And since the Orcs are CR 0.5, and not 1, there is not a single enemy. There's two of them in a routine encounter, more in anything actually meant to be difficult. But none of that matters, because you're whining and flailing a 1st level party cannot handle a pair of stock mob orcs. Which means you automatically forfeit the argument.
The healer doesn't need to do equal the DPS, he just needs to keep the other character from being dropped until he kills the opponent. A CR7 Earth elemental does 40 damage, a cure critical cures 25, so a character with 71 hp can survive 2 full attacks from it instead of 1. Bonus points if we include close wounds which would let him survive 4 rounds.
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Sunic_Flames

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Re: Challenging 3.5 and Pathfinder Parties in Practice
« Reply #129 on: February 08, 2011, 06:08:13 PM »
Often, it doesn't even do that. Also as soon as you drop, your AC instantly goes down to 1 + armor bonus, regardless of its original value due to being prone and helpless. So you go down, they swing once more, either they roll a 1 or you die. And since there is two of them this happens on the same round.

And don't pretend Orcs aren't vicious enough to do that either. Don't like Orcs? There's Goblins (opportunistic little bitches), Kobolds (see opportunist), Hobgoblins (ruthless, vicious warriors)... every single foe, even at low level will do this.

Also, 71 HP at level 7? Bit on the high side there.
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And don't forget:


There is no greater contribution than Hi Welcome.

Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.

IP proofing and avoiding being CAPed OR - how to make characters relevant in the long term.

Friends don't let friends be Short Bus Hobos.

[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

lans

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Re: Challenging 3.5 and Pathfinder Parties in Practice
« Reply #130 on: February 08, 2011, 09:04:41 PM »
Often, it doesn't even do that. Also as soon as you drop, your AC instantly goes down to 1 + armor bonus, regardless of its original value due to being prone and helpless. So you go down, they swing once more, either they roll a 1 or you die. And since there is two of them this happens on the same round.
I was going off of the +4 to hit that was provided. Most ACs at 1st level aren't below 14.

Quote
And don't pretend Orcs aren't vicious enough to do that either. Don't like Orcs? There's Goblins (opportunistic little bitches), Kobolds (see opportunist), Hobgoblins (ruthless, vicious warriors)... every single foe, even at low level will do this.
I don't think they will, as long as their are other threats on the field wasting the action to kill an unconscious person is very wasteful to things that care about dying. Mindless  undead would, some animals might try to drag him off to eat him, dragon might reposition to include that person in its cone.

Quote
Also, 71 HP at level 7? Bit on the high side there.
D10 with an 18  constitution. Which would be 16 starting and a +2 item by 6th or 7th. That would be a bit high. If it was a Barbarian or Warblade it would be about right.
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Sunic_Flames

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Re: Challenging 3.5 and Pathfinder Parties in Practice
« Reply #131 on: February 08, 2011, 09:19:31 PM »
Affording 18 Str, 16 Con, and the other stuff is kinda hard.

As for making sure they're dead, they live in a world where people can be six seconds from death, and some guy says some stuff about divine assistance and he gets up like it never even happened. Also, the whole evil savage dick thing. Not to mention all those enemies that wasted a feat on Cleave have to do something with it, right? Sure Orcs don't have it, but others do.

And if the first attack misses, well the second likely hits. AC 15 means 1/4 chance they both miss, otherwise at least one hits.

Remember also this is happening in every round, in every fight. So even if the first time only the second one hits, or they both miss, your luck will not hold out, and you will be the next victim of Iterative Probability.
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If you hear this music, run.

And don't forget:


There is no greater contribution than Hi Welcome.

Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.

IP proofing and avoiding being CAPed OR - how to make characters relevant in the long term.

Friends don't let friends be Short Bus Hobos.

[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

Kajhera

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Re: Challenging 3.5 and Pathfinder Parties in Practice
« Reply #132 on: February 08, 2011, 09:28:11 PM »
Affording 18 Str, 16 Con, and the other stuff is kinda hard.

As for making sure they're dead, they live in a world where people can be six seconds from death, and some guy says some stuff about divine assistance and he gets up like it never even happened. Also, the whole evil savage dick thing. Not to mention all those enemies that wasted a feat on Cleave have to do something with it, right? Sure Orcs don't have it, but others do.

And if the first attack misses, well the second likely hits. AC 15 means 1/4 chance they both miss, otherwise at least one hits.

Remember also this is happening in every round, in every fight. So even if the first time only the second one hits, or they both miss, your luck will not hold out, and you will be the next victim of Iterative Probability.

Sorry, I forgot the thread of this conversation.

...Point is that Orc Warriors are low-level rockets, right?

lans

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Re: Challenging 3.5 and Pathfinder Parties in Practice
« Reply #133 on: February 08, 2011, 09:44:09 PM »
Affording 18 Str, 16 Con, and the other stuff is kinda hard.
Probably would be 18/14 or 16/14, but thats why I agreed that the 71hp would be a bit high for non d12 classes.  Though it would be be  right if the person was a race that gave a con boost.

Edit- Though 2 levels in Puglist fighter might lead to a dragonborn orc fighter with 20s in both for Dr 6/- that stacks with other DR.

Quote
As for making sure they're dead, they live in a world where people can be six seconds from death, and some guy says some stuff about divine assistance and he gets up like it never even happened. Also, the whole evil savage dick thing. Not to mention all those enemies that wasted a feat on Cleave have to do something with it, right? Sure Orcs don't have it, but others do.
This gets into whether you can drop a dropped opponent, I don't think you can. I also think that the orc would be concerned with taking out the other fucker trying to kill him.


Quote
And if the first attack misses, well the second likely hits. AC 15 means 1/4 chance they both miss, otherwise at least one hits.
I don't think they will hit a downed guy, but a hit that takes him down to 1 or 0 followed by another hit would the main threat.
Quote
Remember also this is happening in every round, in every fight. So even if the first time only the second one hits, or they both miss, your luck will not hold out, and you will be the next victim of Iterative Probability.

Yeah, that is an issue. I'm more concerned by the stray crit with an x3 weapon at those levels than getting double tapped.
Sorry, I forgot the thread of this conversation.

...Point is that Orc Warriors are low-level rockets, right?
Pretty much, I don't think they really are. Though, Orc Whirlybarians on the other hand...
« Last Edit: February 08, 2011, 09:55:10 PM by lans »
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dark_samuari

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Re: Challenging 3.5 and Pathfinder Parties in Practice
« Reply #134 on: February 08, 2011, 11:27:58 PM »
Players are expected to die? Wow, well, I am glad I don't play in games like that, and I tend to enjoy high-powered games with high levels of difficulty. This is where the concept of IP proofing comes in...you are expected to make characters that can stay alive, not characters that die regularly.

All characters eventually die.

Do they?

Immortality isn't quite absolute invulnerability.

Plus... Who wants to live forever?

Sunic_Flames

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Re: Challenging 3.5 and Pathfinder Parties in Practice
« Reply #135 on: February 08, 2011, 11:43:34 PM »
Affording 18 Str, 16 Con, and the other stuff is kinda hard.

As for making sure they're dead, they live in a world where people can be six seconds from death, and some guy says some stuff about divine assistance and he gets up like it never even happened. Also, the whole evil savage dick thing. Not to mention all those enemies that wasted a feat on Cleave have to do something with it, right? Sure Orcs don't have it, but others do.

And if the first attack misses, well the second likely hits. AC 15 means 1/4 chance they both miss, otherwise at least one hits.

Remember also this is happening in every round, in every fight. So even if the first time only the second one hits, or they both miss, your luck will not hold out, and you will be the next victim of Iterative Probability.

Sorry, I forgot the thread of this conversation.

...Point is that Orc Warriors are low-level rockets, right?

More that even low levels, and humanoids are Rocket Tag. But yes. Even stock mob Orcs are pretty damn dangerous at level 1 and 2. Actually competent Orcs, who have an 18 in their main stat instead of a 13 do 2d4+9 of course, with a +7 to hit. But this isn't about that, as even the gimpy Orcs shoot a rocket at you. They also out DPS healing, just like anything else at a non Heal level, and even on a one Orc per healer basis. Which of course means Mr. I have no solid arguments ever, but claim something isn't Rocket Tag when it is is completely wrong. As is always the case with such whining, flailing, and failing fucktards. Not that this surprises anyone, I just mention it for damage control purposes.
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And don't forget:


There is no greater contribution than Hi Welcome.

Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.

IP proofing and avoiding being CAPed OR - how to make characters relevant in the long term.

Friends don't let friends be Short Bus Hobos.

[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

lans

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Re: Challenging 3.5 and Pathfinder Parties in Practice
« Reply #136 on: February 09, 2011, 01:16:41 AM »
Corner case- The party is all equipped with full plate from a binder or a person who took the binding feats, which means they have an AC of 20 if they have shields. With +7 to hit the orcs have a DPS of 14*4 or 5.6, a healer or cleric with the healing domain heals 6.5.

Suck it. :P
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Sunic_Flames

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Re: Challenging 3.5 and Pathfinder Parties in Practice
« Reply #137 on: February 09, 2011, 01:19:11 AM »
Hi Welcome
Smiting Imbeciles since 1985.

If you hear this music, run.

And don't forget:


There is no greater contribution than Hi Welcome.

Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.

IP proofing and avoiding being CAPed OR - how to make characters relevant in the long term.

Friends don't let friends be Short Bus Hobos.

[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

RelentlessImp

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Re: Challenging 3.5 and Pathfinder Parties in Practice
« Reply #138 on: February 09, 2011, 01:25:33 AM »
Corner case- The party is all equipped with full plate from a binder or a person who took the binding feats, which means they have an AC of 20 if they have shields. With +7 to hit the orcs have a DPS of 14*4 or 5.6, a healer or cleric with the healing domain heals 6.5.

Suck it. :P

Congrats, you found one of the very few non-Heal instances where healing outdoes DPR. Does it happen? Not really. At level 1 you still don't have enough slots to keep it up. :P
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Sunic_Flames

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Re: Challenging 3.5 and Pathfinder Parties in Practice
« Reply #139 on: February 09, 2011, 01:45:28 AM »
While I was actually joking when I Hi Welcomed you, you did kinda forget there was two orcs...
Smiting Imbeciles since 1985.

If you hear this music, run.

And don't forget:


There is no greater contribution than Hi Welcome.

Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.

IP proofing and avoiding being CAPed OR - how to make characters relevant in the long term.

Friends don't let friends be Short Bus Hobos.

[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]