Author Topic: Challenging 3.5 and Pathfinder Parties in Practice  (Read 27639 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Sunic_Flames

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 4782
  • The Crusader of Logic.
Re: Challenging 3.5 and Pathfinder Parties in Practice
« Reply #40 on: February 04, 2011, 07:35:12 PM »
You know, at this point I don't even have to say anything. The pro herp derp crowd is doing a better job of shooting down herp derp than me, with such gems as "But... how do I RAILROAD without beating my PCs down with my shrunken penis?"

The answer of course is that you learn to be a real DM, who can write stories the PCs are actually interested in, then you won't have to force and dick them around to get them to go on those adventures. And while this is certainly advice the little MBF could stand to take, it in no way changes the fact that capturing is a fate worse than death.
Smiting Imbeciles since 1985.

If you hear this music, run.

And don't forget:


There is no greater contribution than Hi Welcome.

Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.

IP proofing and avoiding being CAPed OR - how to make characters relevant in the long term.

Friends don't let friends be Short Bus Hobos.

[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

dark_samuari

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1024
    • Email
Re: Challenging 3.5 and Pathfinder Parties in Practice
« Reply #41 on: February 05, 2011, 02:25:26 AM »
And while this is certainly advice the little MBF could stand to take, it in no way changes the fact that capturing is a fate worse than death.

Could you please elaborate on this? 

PlzBreakMyCampaign

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1373
  • Immune to Critical Hits as a Fairness Elemental
Re: Challenging 3.5 and Pathfinder Parties in Practice
« Reply #42 on: February 05, 2011, 04:10:04 AM »
Coming in elemental form to say that Sunic is doing much, much better than usual. I'm actually enjoying one of endaire's discussion threads, though perhaps that's because I'm smart enough to stay away from PF. Carry on
[Spoiler]
Quote
An interesting read, nice to see a civil discussion
The point of Spell Resistance is to make it harder to get buffed.
And healed. Don't forget that.
Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.
[/Spoiler]

Old Geezer's Law of Hobby Taste: The more objectively inconsequential a hobby is, the more disagreements within the community will be expressed in outrageously insulting, overblown, and ludicrously emotionally laden terms.

More Funny than Humble[Spoiler]
Quote from: PlzBreakMyCampaign
Your a shifter... you have all you ever need.
It blows MoMF out of the water

But if your greedy for more [Wish] for something that only effects you, like another class level or two that doesn't count against your ECL.
Quote from: hungryhungryhippo987
Yes, I'm the 3.0 "Masters of the Wild" shifter, the awesome kind. My favorite form to take is Force Dragon. Yes, I am immortal ... My character is hands down the coolest guy in the campaign and there is nothing I could possibly want.
PBMC gets a cookie for DotA r

veekie

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 9034
  • WARNING: Homing Miko
Re: Challenging 3.5 and Pathfinder Parties in Practice
« Reply #43 on: February 05, 2011, 04:45:15 AM »
If the DM is not coddling, you are irrevocably fucked. Also, if the DM is coddling, he's pretty much just fucking with you for the lulz.
That would apply to anything in the game. Theres no way to succeed at anything if the DM is not 'coddling', theres no practical way to defeat NPCs with all their wealth sunken into expendable magic(which they naturally blow on your encounter all at once), optimised or not.

Thing is, for a good DM, everything is a way to advance the plot. Sure, you're captured PoWs, you're also within striking distance of the enemy leadership now, or stuck in captivity with the hundreds of other dissidents you can rally to overthrow the prison.
Perhaps you're chained up and bereft of your equipment, but it's a common expectation for villains to be overconfident and stupid, with good reason. Allies might smuggle equipment to you, you might learn valuable information. And all of these can be accomplished, free or not, all that changed is where you're starting from.

Not everything in the world is trying to kill you. Just most things.
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."

Sunic_Flames

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 4782
  • The Crusader of Logic.
Re: Challenging 3.5 and Pathfinder Parties in Practice
« Reply #44 on: February 05, 2011, 09:36:18 AM »
Coming in elemental form to say that Sunic is doing much, much better than usual. I'm actually enjoying one of endaire's discussion threads, though perhaps that's because I'm smart enough to stay away from PF. Carry on

Mostly because I only start smiting when people are being imbeciles. Since there's little of that here...

Elaboration: If your adventure is interesting, PCs will pursue it willingly. If it is not interesting, they will not. If you have to railroad, it's because you need a better adventure. As such, something that serves no purpose but railroading literally does nothing but promote bad DMing. As for the being captured itself, it's really very simple:

1: It is as difficult, or harder to take someone alive than it is to kill them. Most often harder.
2: It is considerably more difficult to keep someone as a living prisoner than to kill them and keep them dead.
3: The PCs, however will not be holding back.

Any group strong enough to defeat the PCs, despite these factors and capture them, and who now also has the advantage of stripping them of spells, magic items, etc is completely untouchable to the PCs. They are irrevocably fucked, assuming that the enemy is in any way competent. If they aren't, then the DM was just fucking with you for the lulz and wasting your time. So just tilt your camera around, as if this were a bad video game to find the massive hole in the wall that should be very obvious from the perspective of the character, and escape in 5 seconds. Either way, it's still a fate worse than death, as either way you have to delete and reroll to continue play. However while there is no question that you can delete and reroll a dead character, a bad DM, such as the type to necessitate such railroading, douchebagish measures in the first place is likely to force you to be stuck with an unplayable character. And if you did get thrown into the worst prison ever, so that you actually can escape from it that still means he's the type to fuck with you for the lulz, so in that case the solution becomes to get out of that campaign.

And the NPC consumable thing is complete and utter fail. Try again, this time getting it right.

NPCs need to use consumables like crazy just to be a threat at all. They also get three times as much wealth as typical encounters, so if they don't use consumables they give way too much treasure (in the form of vendor trash, but still). Such an NPC is very beatable, and it certainly isn't something you have no practical means of doing. Not even close. Try sucking less, as humanoid NPCs are the easiest opponents in the entire game.
Smiting Imbeciles since 1985.

If you hear this music, run.

And don't forget:


There is no greater contribution than Hi Welcome.

Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.

IP proofing and avoiding being CAPed OR - how to make characters relevant in the long term.

Friends don't let friends be Short Bus Hobos.

[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

dark_samuari

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1024
    • Email
Re: Challenging 3.5 and Pathfinder Parties in Practice
« Reply #45 on: February 05, 2011, 06:30:44 PM »
Sunic how would you handle a campaign, like Eyes of the Lich Queen, which involves the players having to get in contact with a well known criminal in a very harsh prison to read the tattoo on his back?

Midnight_v

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 2660
  • Dulce et decorum est pro alea mori.
Re: Challenging 3.5 and Pathfinder Parties in Practice
« Reply #46 on: February 05, 2011, 07:00:28 PM »
Sunic how would you handle a campaign, like Eyes of the Lich Queen, which involves the players having to get in contact with a well known criminal in a very harsh prison to read the tattoo on his back?
You know there are a lot of variables that could be taken into account from that little blurb.
Briefly, what are the specifics of that campaign for those of us who don't have the module.
Cause there's like a HUGE amount of things that could be done right there to accomplish said task,
that don't involve going into said prison... at all...
\\\"Disentegrate.\\\" \\\"Gust of wind.\\\" \\\"Now Can we PLEASE resume saving the world?\\\"

Endarire

  • Man in Gorilla Suit
  • *****
  • Posts: 2171
    • Email
Re: Challenging 3.5 and Pathfinder Parties in Practice
« Reply #47 on: February 05, 2011, 07:23:52 PM »
Contact other plane was my first thought.
Hood - My first answer to all your build questions; past, present, and future.

Speaking of which:
Don't even need TO for this.  Any decent Hood build, especially one with Celerity, one-rounds [Azathoth, the most powerful greater deity from d20 Cthulu].
Does it bug anyone else that we've reached the point where characters who can obliterate a greater deity in one round are considered "decent?"

Sunic_Flames

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 4782
  • The Crusader of Logic.
Re: Challenging 3.5 and Pathfinder Parties in Practice
« Reply #48 on: February 05, 2011, 07:31:32 PM »
I cast Scrying.

Hi Welcome
Smiting Imbeciles since 1985.

If you hear this music, run.

And don't forget:


There is no greater contribution than Hi Welcome.

Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.

IP proofing and avoiding being CAPed OR - how to make characters relevant in the long term.

Friends don't let friends be Short Bus Hobos.

[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

The_Mad_Linguist

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 8780
  • Simulated Thing
Re: Challenging 3.5 and Pathfinder Parties in Practice
« Reply #49 on: February 05, 2011, 07:41:13 PM »
Because your DM doesn't coddle you, and yet doesn't put any defenses against level appropriate threats on a high security prison?
Linguist, Mad, Unique, none of these things am I
My custom class: The Priest of the Unseen Host
Planetouched Handbook
Want to improve your character?  Then die.

Sunic_Flames

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 4782
  • The Crusader of Logic.
Re: Challenging 3.5 and Pathfinder Parties in Practice
« Reply #50 on: February 05, 2011, 07:47:01 PM »
So every prisoner has Mind Blank? That's quite some prison. And you afford mass Mind Blank on level 7 NPC WBL how, again?
Smiting Imbeciles since 1985.

If you hear this music, run.

And don't forget:


There is no greater contribution than Hi Welcome.

Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.

IP proofing and avoiding being CAPed OR - how to make characters relevant in the long term.

Friends don't let friends be Short Bus Hobos.

[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

dark_samuari

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1024
    • Email
Re: Challenging 3.5 and Pathfinder Parties in Practice
« Reply #51 on: February 05, 2011, 08:27:41 PM »
I cast Scrying.

Hi Welcome

The adventure is for four 5th level characters, you won't have access to scrying yet.

The_Mad_Linguist

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 8780
  • Simulated Thing
Re: Challenging 3.5 and Pathfinder Parties in Practice
« Reply #52 on: February 05, 2011, 08:54:17 PM »
So every prisoner has Mind Blank? That's quite some prison. And you afford mass Mind Blank on level 7 NPC WBL how, again?
It's not that expensive to make the prison impossible to scry upon.  There's wondrous architecture that'll prevent any scrying attempts on an area. 

If we're assuming this is a state prison or something similar (and not coddling the players by forcing the warden to buy everything), since it works out to around 700 gp per prisoner or so to make your high-security prison unscryable there isn't any reason why it shouldn't be. 
Linguist, Mad, Unique, none of these things am I
My custom class: The Priest of the Unseen Host
Planetouched Handbook
Want to improve your character?  Then die.

Endarire

  • Man in Gorilla Suit
  • *****
  • Posts: 2171
    • Email
Re: Challenging 3.5 and Pathfinder Parties in Practice
« Reply #53 on: February 05, 2011, 09:13:58 PM »
What about using social skills and convincing/paying others to infiltrate the prison?
Hood - My first answer to all your build questions; past, present, and future.

Speaking of which:
Don't even need TO for this.  Any decent Hood build, especially one with Celerity, one-rounds [Azathoth, the most powerful greater deity from d20 Cthulu].
Does it bug anyone else that we've reached the point where characters who can obliterate a greater deity in one round are considered "decent?"

dark_samuari

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1024
    • Email
Re: Challenging 3.5 and Pathfinder Parties in Practice
« Reply #54 on: February 05, 2011, 09:41:53 PM »
What about using social skills and convincing/paying others to infiltrate the prison?

Certainly an option but issues of verification & assurance arise.

Midnight_v

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 2660
  • Dulce et decorum est pro alea mori.
Re: Challenging 3.5 and Pathfinder Parties in Practice
« Reply #55 on: February 06, 2011, 11:03:07 AM »
So every prisoner has Mind Blank? That's quite some prison. And you afford mass Mind Blank on level 7 NPC WBL how, again?
It's not that expensive to make the prison impossible to scry upon.  There's wondrous architecture that'll prevent any scrying attempts on an area. 

If we're assuming this is a state prison or something similar (and not coddling the players by forcing the warden to buy everything), since it works out to around 700 gp per prisoner or so to make your high-security prison unscryable there isn't any reason why it shouldn't be. 
Why do you keep saying "coddling"? Are you quoting him or something? It doesn't seem like you mean the same thing he does, so maybe you aren't getting it. We're not breaking into the tower of dis, its a 5th level module. 
  In anycase, all that  wodrous architecture is irrelavant because we're talking about a specific campaign. I don't have the book but as people who write modules don't have any idea how strong divination can be.
I suppose at level 5 I'd use something like clairaudience and or chain of eyes you could pretty much just buy a scroll of sending I imagine, but of course this depends on the rules of the jail.
  If he gets outside time at all, ever it gets much easier.
  And of course you could very well send some of the more popular familiars in with a note passenger pigeon style. A tiny viper has a +15 hide check, a rat has a +16, not to mention you can do things like cast invis, or fly on it. Psicrystals might be even better at it honestly Diminuative +12, +2 dex = 14 hide + a climb speed and telepathic speech. No real need to get captured really.
\\\"Disentegrate.\\\" \\\"Gust of wind.\\\" \\\"Now Can we PLEASE resume saving the world?\\\"

Sunic_Flames

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 4782
  • The Crusader of Logic.
Re: Challenging 3.5 and Pathfinder Parties in Practice
« Reply #56 on: February 06, 2011, 11:41:41 AM »
Level 5? You buy a scroll of Scrying and make a CL check (90% chance to succeed without CL buffs). And you completely bypass the mundane, railroading adventure.
Smiting Imbeciles since 1985.

If you hear this music, run.

And don't forget:


There is no greater contribution than Hi Welcome.

Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.

IP proofing and avoiding being CAPed OR - how to make characters relevant in the long term.

Friends don't let friends be Short Bus Hobos.

[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

Midnight_v

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 2660
  • Dulce et decorum est pro alea mori.
Re: Challenging 3.5 and Pathfinder Parties in Practice
« Reply #57 on: February 06, 2011, 11:47:51 AM »
Again I find myself wondering if Sunic_Flames has me on ignore...   :twitch
Me:
Quote
I suppose at level 5 I'd use something like clairaudience and or chain of eyes you could pretty much just buy a scroll of sending I imagine, but of course this depends on the rules of the jail.
:lol
\\\"Disentegrate.\\\" \\\"Gust of wind.\\\" \\\"Now Can we PLEASE resume saving the world?\\\"

veekie

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 9034
  • WARNING: Homing Miko
Re: Challenging 3.5 and Pathfinder Parties in Practice
« Reply #58 on: February 06, 2011, 11:52:55 AM »
Still needs an accurate target(not hard), and provided that the site isn't magically warded or more simply, lead shielded(not hard either, unless you're into leadplating every single surface).

And of course for the players to decide who's going to give up some of their valuable lewts to get a single one use magic item. :D
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."

Midnight_v

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 2660
  • Dulce et decorum est pro alea mori.
Re: Challenging 3.5 and Pathfinder Parties in Practice
« Reply #59 on: February 06, 2011, 11:58:50 AM »
Still needs an accurate target(not hard), and provided that the site isn't magically warded or more simply, lead shielded(not hard either, unless you're into leadplating every single surface).

And of course for the players to decide who's going to give up some of their valuable lewts to get a single one use magic item. :D
Seriously if it keeps the bard from getting railroaded into jail with a bunch of half orgers then I'm sure he'll fit the bill.
 :D
\\\"Disentegrate.\\\" \\\"Gust of wind.\\\" \\\"Now Can we PLEASE resume saving the world?\\\"