Author Topic: Challenging 3.5 and Pathfinder Parties in Practice  (Read 25540 times)

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Talore

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Re: Challenging 3.5 and Pathfinder Parties in Practice
« Reply #80 on: February 07, 2011, 09:07:36 PM »
D&D is Rocket Tag regardless of your lies, handwaving, and fail. Also, the world is not flat, it is round, yet slightly oval shaped.

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Nobody of integrity respects you when you go 'la la la not listening' and other internal conviction crap. Certainly I can't take your points seriously if all you do is insult those of a different opinion.
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bearsarebrown

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Re: Challenging 3.5 and Pathfinder Parties in Practice
« Reply #81 on: February 07, 2011, 09:40:23 PM »
@Talore, your house rules and gentlemen's agreements is not 3.5. Once you handwave that much away you're playing a different game. Sunic is absolutely right.

RelentlessImp

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Re: Challenging 3.5 and Pathfinder Parties in Practice
« Reply #82 on: February 07, 2011, 09:42:03 PM »
D&D is Rocket Tag regardless of your lies, handwaving, and fail. Also, the world is not flat, it is round, yet slightly oval shaped.

Hi Welcome
Nobody of integrity respects you when you go 'la la la not listening' and other internal conviction crap. Certainly I can't take your points seriously if all you do is insult those of a different opinion.

You might want to take a look at those people positing the opposing arguments before you start writing off counterpoints and differing views.
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Talore

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Re: Challenging 3.5 and Pathfinder Parties in Practice
« Reply #83 on: February 07, 2011, 10:01:16 PM »

Seriously. You don't need to leave 3.5 to leave rocket tag. Think about it.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2011, 10:07:26 PM by Talore »
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Bester

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Re: Challenging 3.5 and Pathfinder Parties in Practice
« Reply #84 on: February 07, 2011, 10:13:58 PM »
@Talore, your house rules and gentlemen's agreements is not 3.5. Once you handwave that much away you're playing a different game. Sunic is absolutely right.

Well, if you look at it that way...lol.  I guess alot of us aren't playing 3.5 or Pathfinder, but our own homebrews and gentleman's agreement games based loosely on d&d.

We want the game to work a certain way and railroad and force it to do so.  In the end it isn't the same game.  So Sunic is right....darn!

RelentlessImp

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Re: Challenging 3.5 and Pathfinder Parties in Practice
« Reply #85 on: February 07, 2011, 10:14:19 PM »
http://media.ebaumsworld.com/mediaFiles/picture/517631/698617.jpg
Seriously. You don't need to leave 3.5 to leave rocket tag. Think about it.

Without massive houserules or DM coddling, AND not starting at level 1, yes. Yes you do.
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The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Challenging 3.5 and Pathfinder Parties in Practice
« Reply #86 on: February 07, 2011, 10:16:09 PM »
http://media.ebaumsworld.com/mediaFiles/picture/517631/698617.jpg
Seriously. You don't need to leave 3.5 to leave rocket tag. Think about it.

Without massive houserules or DM coddling, AND not starting at level 1, yes. Yes you do.
I don't call "not constantly siccing customized full casters on the party" DM coddling
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Talore

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Re: Challenging 3.5 and Pathfinder Parties in Practice
« Reply #87 on: February 07, 2011, 10:20:47 PM »
http://media.ebaumsworld.com/mediaFiles/picture/517631/698617.jpg
Seriously. You don't need to leave 3.5 to leave rocket tag. Think about it.

Without massive houserules or DM coddling, AND not starting at level 1, yes. Yes you do.
Explain. And I mean you had better clearly define everything or I'll tear it up.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2011, 10:22:44 PM by Talore »
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RelentlessImp

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Re: Challenging 3.5 and Pathfinder Parties in Practice
« Reply #88 on: February 07, 2011, 11:00:12 PM »
http://media.ebaumsworld.com/mediaFiles/picture/517631/698617.jpg
Seriously. You don't need to leave 3.5 to leave rocket tag. Think about it.

Without massive houserules or DM coddling, AND not starting at level 1, yes. Yes you do.
Explain. And I mean you had better clearly define everything or I'll tear it up.

Fine. First, here's the fun part: enemies need to win once. You have to win every time.

Past a certain level, swinging a big stick isn't good enough. This level is generally accepted as sixth, but I find it comes as late as 8th or 9th. After that, you're no longer swinging a 'big stick' - you're Charging, with a Pounce, transferring all of your BAB to Power Attack, shifting the penalty to your Armor Class, possibly making a Jump check to boost PA numbers, and delivering a 'rocket' to your opponent in the form of a +1 special property two-handed weapon.

Why? Because monster AC and HP scales so much faster than your own, as does their to hit bonus. Even with magical back-up, the person doing all that feat stacking to get a respectable number to damage has to take their opponent down in one, perhaps two, rounds, to even be remotely close to what the casters are doing at the same level. This is because hitpoint damage doesn't fucking matter until the very last one. In fact, you can completely bypass rocketing the enemy's HP to death with a save-or-die or a save-or-lose. And the enemy can do the exact same thing to you, and most of the time, as CR rises, they don't need spells to do it - they just have to land a hit. And since AC is expensive as hell to raise in 3.5, most people are going to focus on other forms of defense.

If you do buy up your AC, it still doesn't matter, because after a certain point NPC to-hit bonuses are so high that they auto-hit you, and your attempt at becoming hard to hit has failed. Take a stroll through the Monster Manual and do some thinking, you'll see it pretty obviously, unless you are, in fact, a mouth-breathing fuckwit.

Also, the part about not starting at level 1: You have anywhere between 6 (d4, 14 con) and 17 (d12, 20 con) HP. An Orc Warrior (CR 1/2) deals 2d4+4 with a to-hit of +4. That's 6-12 damage, at a level where you have 6-17hp, and not enough gold to purchase decent armor (Chain Shirt, 100gp. Breastplate, 200. Full Plate, 1500.) That means your AC is pretty abysmal, and they have a good chance to hit you.

Is CR 1/2 too high? How about a Goblin? They only have a +2 with a 1d6 weapon, CR 1/3.

Of course, the common response at low levels is "The party Wizard casts sleep," or color spray, or grease. Hey, your party just won its first game of rocket tag!

Yes, your DM needs to coddle you at levels 1 and 2, and you need to build competently at levels past six. There's a small, SMALL space between levels 3 and 5 where you might not be playing rocket tag, but that's about it. Once the damage starts ramping and the spellcasters start becoming more dangerous, it keeps turning into 'kill them before they kill you', which is the very definition of rocket tag.
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Kajhera

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Re: Challenging 3.5 and Pathfinder Parties in Practice
« Reply #89 on: February 07, 2011, 11:07:29 PM »
Once the damage starts ramping and the spellcasters start becoming more dangerous, it keeps turning into 'kill them before they kill you', which is the very definition of rocket tag.

Or combat with lethal intent in general.  :p Know what you meant though.

Talore

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Re: Challenging 3.5 and Pathfinder Parties in Practice
« Reply #90 on: February 08, 2011, 12:03:01 AM »
That's assuming that the party has casters and that they aren't playing blaster/healer, that the DM is putting you up against monsters that have those rediculous stats, that the players are in situations where those monsters need to be fought, and a plethora of other situational assumptions. And that isn't even touching that 'gentlement's agreements and houserules aren't 3.5' when (a:) They're written into the DMG, and (b:) If there are no gentlement's houserules, then every game goes to Pun-Pun/etc.

The list goes on... it's really how you play.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2011, 12:07:18 AM by Talore »
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RelentlessImp

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Re: Challenging 3.5 and Pathfinder Parties in Practice
« Reply #91 on: February 08, 2011, 12:05:38 AM »
That's assuming that the party has casters, that the DM is putting you up against monsters that have those rediculous stats, that the players are in situations where those monsters need to be fought, and a plethora of other situational assumptions. And that isn't even touching that 'gentlement's agreements and houserules aren't 3.5' when (a:) They're written into the DMG, and (b:) If there are no gentlement's houserules, then every game goes to Pun-Pun/etc.

The list goes on... it's really how you play.

Well that certainly tore the fuck out of my argument.
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The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Challenging 3.5 and Pathfinder Parties in Practice
« Reply #92 on: February 08, 2011, 12:44:07 AM »
Since that doesn't match my empirical experience, I have to say your theoretical framework is flawed.
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Talore

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Re: Challenging 3.5 and Pathfinder Parties in Practice
« Reply #93 on: February 08, 2011, 12:45:51 AM »
Since that doesn't match my empirical experience, I have to say your theoretical framework is flawed.
What post is this directed towards?
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Kajhera

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Re: Challenging 3.5 and Pathfinder Parties in Practice
« Reply #94 on: February 08, 2011, 12:51:56 AM »
Since that doesn't match my empirical experience, I have to say your theoretical framework is flawed.
What post is this directed towards?

Could be all of them. I'm inclined to interpret it that way for my own amusement.

dark_samuari

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Re: Challenging 3.5 and Pathfinder Parties in Practice
« Reply #95 on: February 08, 2011, 12:53:57 AM »
So was there a clear & concise time when house rules were designated as something vile? Because we all use house rules, every one of us. All of us also use a gentleman's agreement when it comes to Dungeons & Dragons because D&D is a social, cooperative game. We do these things because D&D 3.5 demands it of us.

For those who stand in opposition to such a claim how do you face easily done finite-power builds? How do you tell a player that they can't abuse the Cancer Mage & Festering Anger super combo? Either you establish some barricades or you let in the entire ocean.

Scrying however allows you to see him. And if you only need a message on his back, you're actually already done. If you actually need to get the guy out, Teleport twice and it's done.

Hmm... Fair points except lets say the prisoner has an undershirt on thus concealing the tattoo. Obviously you will probably wait till he is in the shower to view him but at that point you sure are one hell of a hero.

I'm afraid my books are away from me so I don't know if the teleport spell works (never mind you don't have access to it because of your level) but if it does (and why a prison wouldn't have some form of protection against that is ludicrous) you still have enacted the release of prisoner so a group of Zelekhuts are now alerted to you.  

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Re: Challenging 3.5 and Pathfinder Parties in Practice
« Reply #96 on: February 08, 2011, 01:16:53 AM »
Can you sneak into the prison very stealthfully and watch the guy remove his shirt?  Hopefully you're a Factotum with Autohypnosis.
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dark_samuari

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Re: Challenging 3.5 and Pathfinder Parties in Practice
« Reply #97 on: February 08, 2011, 01:29:30 AM »
Can you sneak into the prison very stealthfully and watch the guy remove his shirt?  Hopefully you're a Factotum with Autohypnosis.

Well certainly but that means you are in prison, and according to Sunic you are worse off than dead at the very moment you step inside those concrete walls.

So either you can try to find some other ridiculous way to never enter the prison or actually engage an adventure.

I know, choices....

RelentlessImp

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Re: Challenging 3.5 and Pathfinder Parties in Practice
« Reply #98 on: February 08, 2011, 01:46:41 AM »
So was there a clear & concise time when house rules were designated as something vile? Because we all use house rules, every one of us. All of us also use a gentleman's agreement when it comes to Dungeons & Dragons because D&D is a social, cooperative game. We do these things because D&D 3.5 demands it of us.

Because discussion of the rules should take place in a houserules-free environment, so everyone is on the same page. This way we're discussing the same game. And yes, everyone plays with houserules, but those houserules are different from group to group. In the interest of staying on the same page, we take the rules as they're written and discard everyone's houserules when it comes to a discussion about the mechanics themselves.
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dark_samuari

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Re: Challenging 3.5 and Pathfinder Parties in Practice
« Reply #99 on: February 08, 2011, 02:07:00 AM »
So was there a clear & concise time when house rules were designated as something vile? Because we all use house rules, every one of us. All of us also use a gentleman's agreement when it comes to Dungeons & Dragons because D&D is a social, cooperative game. We do these things because D&D 3.5 demands it of us.

Because discussion of the rules should take place in a houserules-free environment, so everyone is on the same page. This way we're discussing the same game. And yes, everyone plays with houserules, but those houserules are different from group to group. In the interest of staying on the same page, we take the rules as they're written and discard everyone's houserules when it comes to a discussion about the mechanics themselves.

Which would be fine except this creates a theoretical discussion which some posters drag into areas of practicality. It is one thing to say that the game is unbalanced because of X, Y & Z mechanical reasons but to say that because of those mechanical reasons no one could ever have fun in the game is a terrible assumption.