Author Topic: Challenging 3.5 and Pathfinder Parties in Practice  (Read 25538 times)

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Sunic_Flames

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Re: Challenging 3.5 and Pathfinder Parties in Practice
« Reply #100 on: February 08, 2011, 10:39:52 AM »
D&D is Rocket Tag regardless of your lies, handwaving, and fail. Also, the world is not flat, it is round, yet slightly oval shaped.

Hi Welcome
Nobody of integrity respects you when you go 'la la la not listening' and other internal conviction crap. Certainly I can't take your points seriously if all you do is insult those of a different opinion.

Hi Welcome

You have both invoked the Paizil Fallacy, and pretended you have integrity after doing so. Your argument is automatically invalid.

Continuing with the smiting of imbeciles.

That's assuming that the party has casters and that they aren't playing blaster/healer, that the DM is putting you up against monsters that have those rediculous stats, that the players are in situations where those monsters need to be fought, and a plethora of other situational assumptions. And that isn't even touching that 'gentlement's agreements and houserules aren't 3.5' when (a:) They're written into the DMG, and (b:) If there are no gentlement's houserules, then every game goes to Pun-Pun/etc.

The list goes on... it's really how you play.

If the caster is playing blaster, he fails. Especially at level 1. Because he showed up to a game of RLT with no rockets. The healer also fails, as a single enemy out DPSes curing spells at every single level except 11-15, when you have the Heal spell. And since the Orcs are CR 0.5, and not 1, there is not a single enemy. There's two of them in a routine encounter, more in anything actually meant to be difficult. But none of that matters, because you're whining and flailing a 1st level party cannot handle a pair of stock mob orcs. Which means you automatically forfeit the argument.

So was there a clear & concise time when house rules were designated as something vile? Because we all use house rules, every one of us. All of us also use a gentleman's agreement when it comes to Dungeons & Dragons because D&D is a social, cooperative game. We do these things because D&D 3.5 demands it of us.

Yes, it's at the time when certain mouth breathing fuckwits startled labeling hate fiat, aka I don't like what you are doing, so RANDOM ENEMIES OVER DOUBLE YOUR LEVEL NERF IT as house rules. Actual house rules, and not hate fiat are acceptable. Also, for house rules to have merit to a discussion, they must be stated in advance.

Quote
Hmm... Fair points except lets say the prisoner has an undershirt on thus concealing the tattoo. Obviously you will probably wait till he is in the shower to view him but at that point you sure are one hell of a hero.

See what I mean about hate fiat? You are so determined to railroad the PCs into your little herp derp capture scenario you'll do everything you can to try and bully them into it. Which means, as stated and proven, the only purpose of such situations is to allow terrible DMs, that cannot write actually interesting plots to jerk around the PCs and force them to do what he wants.

Quote
I'm afraid my books are away from me so I don't know if the teleport spell works (never mind you don't have access to it because of your level) but if it does (and why a prison wouldn't have some form of protection against that is ludicrous) you still have enacted the release of prisoner so a group of Zelekhuts are now alerted to you. 

It has already been stated and proven that level 5 characters can cast that spell. And oh look, more hate fiat from everyone's favorite Mouth Breathing Fuckwit 1/Power Tripper 1/Waste of Oxygen 1.

However, despite the fact he contributes nothing of value to the discussion, I would like for the mouth breathing fuckwit to continue his whining and flailing. After all, he is doing a better job of proving that capture is a fate worse than death to me. So I can just sit back, make him do my work for me, and then smite him out of his misery when he is no longer of use. There are few things more entertaining to a Crusader of Logic then having your enemies do your work for you, after all.
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[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

Aharon

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Re: Challenging 3.5 and Pathfinder Parties in Practice
« Reply #101 on: February 08, 2011, 10:57:48 AM »
@Sunic
A question:
What would you do with a group of inexperienced players that are not interested in optimization? Kill them again and again? Because I'm faced with that situation as the DM of my group. If I didn't coddle them, they would repeatedly die. That wouldn't be fun for them, I think, and neither would I enjoy it.
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RelentlessImp

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Re: Challenging 3.5 and Pathfinder Parties in Practice
« Reply #102 on: February 08, 2011, 11:03:11 AM »
@Sunic
A question:
What would you do with a group of inexperienced players that are not interested in optimization? Kill them again and again? Because I'm faced with that situation as the DM of my group. If I didn't coddle them, they would repeatedly die. That wouldn't be fun for them, I think, and neither would I enjoy it.

Gradually ramp up the difficulty. Teach them what's unoptimal and what's optimal. Overall, though, if you're enjoying your game, then play it that way. But don't try to force those views on those of us who don't play the same way. That's basically the entirety of this argument: People are throwing "their game" as an example rather than how the rules work unmodified. Except Sunic, whose arguments are actually based on the base mechanics of the game we're all playing.
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Talore

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Re: Challenging 3.5 and Pathfinder Parties in Practice
« Reply #103 on: February 08, 2011, 12:08:37 PM »
If the moderation is so bad that Sunic can go about like this, then I can damn well go about like that.
D&D is Rocket Tag regardless of your lies, handwaving, and fail. Also, the world is not flat, it is round, yet slightly oval shaped.

Hi Welcome
Nobody of integrity respects you when you go 'la la la not listening' and other internal conviction crap. Certainly I can't take your points seriously if all you do is insult those of a different opinion.

Hi Welcome

You have both invoked the Paizil Fallacy, and pretended you have integrity after doing so. Your argument is automatically invalid.

Continuing with the smiting of imbeciles.

That's assuming that the party has casters and that they aren't playing blaster/healer, that the DM is putting you up against monsters that have those rediculous stats, that the players are in situations where those monsters need to be fought, and a plethora of other situational assumptions. And that isn't even touching that 'gentlement's agreements and houserules aren't 3.5' when (a:) They're written into the DMG, and (b:) If there are no gentlement's houserules, then every game goes to Pun-Pun/etc.

The list goes on... it's really how you play.

If the caster is playing blaster, he fails. Especially at level 1. Because he showed up to a game of RLT with no rockets. The healer also fails, as a single enemy out DPSes curing spells at every single level except 11-15, when you have the Heal spell. And since the Orcs are CR 0.5, and not 1, there is not a single enemy. There's two of them in a routine encounter, more in anything actually meant to be difficult. But none of that matters, because you're whining and flailing a 1st level party cannot handle a pair of stock mob orcs. Which means you automatically forfeit the argument.

So was there a clear & concise time when house rules were designated as something vile? Because we all use house rules, every one of us. All of us also use a gentleman's agreement when it comes to Dungeons & Dragons because D&D is a social, cooperative game. We do these things because D&D 3.5 demands it of us.

Yes, it's at the time when certain mouth breathing fuckwits startled labeling hate fiat, aka I don't like what you are doing, so RANDOM ENEMIES OVER DOUBLE YOUR LEVEL NERF IT as house rules. Actual house rules, and not hate fiat are acceptable. Also, for house rules to have merit to a discussion, they must be stated in advance.

Quote
Hmm... Fair points except lets say the prisoner has an undershirt on thus concealing the tattoo. Obviously you will probably wait till he is in the shower to view him but at that point you sure are one hell of a hero.

See what I mean about hate fiat? You are so determined to railroad the PCs into your little herp derp capture scenario you'll do everything you can to try and bully them into it. Which means, as stated and proven, the only purpose of such situations is to allow terrible DMs, that cannot write actually interesting plots to jerk around the PCs and force them to do what he wants.

Quote
I'm afraid my books are away from me so I don't know if the teleport spell works (never mind you don't have access to it because of your level) but if it does (and why a prison wouldn't have some form of protection against that is ludicrous) you still have enacted the release of prisoner so a group of Zelekhuts are now alerted to you.  

It has already been stated and proven that level 5 characters can cast that spell. And oh look, more hate fiat from everyone's favorite Mouth Breathing Fuckwit 1/Power Tripper 1/Waste of Oxygen 1.

However, despite the fact he contributes nothing of value to the discussion, I would like for the mouth breathing fuckwit to continue his whining and flailing. After all, he is doing a better job of proving that capture is a fate worse than death to me. So I can just sit back, make him do my work for me, and then smite him out of his misery when he is no longer of use. There are few things more entertaining to a Crusader of Logic then having your enemies do your work for you, after all.
The paizil fallacy? You're invoking it wrong. Basically what you're saying is 'my opinion is fact, because my ego is large enough to validate it. Hi welcome.


Like, I'm really trying to wrap it around my head if you're a troll or just fucking stupid. You do realise the game is played in more ways than yours?

Quote
If the caster is playing blaster, he fails. Especially at level 1. Because he showed up to a game of RLT with no rockets. The healer also fails, as a single enemy out DPSes curing spells at every single level except 11-15, when you have the Heal spell. And since the Orcs are CR 0.5, and not 1, there is not a single enemy. There's two of them in a routine encounter, more in anything actually meant to be difficult. But none of that matters, because you're whining and flailing a 1st level party cannot handle a pair of stock mob orcs. Which means you automatically forfeit the argument.
Oh look, you assume I'm talking about level 1, fuckwit. If the players chose to play a blaster wizard and a healer cleric, then they aren't going to play rocket tag. Because the DM is fucking stupid if he continually throws encounters at the party for punishing how the want to play, so (1) they actually go by CR and (2) They aren't going to fight ice devil ambushes or incredible numbers, they're going to fight NPCs. Your realise an enemy Human Fighter 7 is listed as CR7? Yeah, a party of four lv7 unoptimized people will fight that single fighter 7. Or 2 fighter 5s. Look mom, no rocket tag! I'm not whining and flailing that lv1s can't survive, you are.

Blaster wizard is bad, but he isn't packing rockets, so the DM won't either. It isn't coddling, it's good DMing. Do any of you fuckwits even read the DMG?

Like fuck, you'd be dropped from a debate team so quickly. Public masturbation. Anyone that goes around on the internet calling themselves the crusader of logic when they don't know the first fucking thing about it has issues.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2011, 12:10:25 PM by Talore »
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dark_samuari

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Re: Challenging 3.5 and Pathfinder Parties in Practice
« Reply #104 on: February 08, 2011, 12:37:10 PM »
So was there a clear & concise time when house rules were designated as something vile? Because we all use house rules, every one of us. All of us also use a gentleman's agreement when it comes to Dungeons & Dragons because D&D is a social, cooperative game. We do these things because D&D 3.5 demands it of us.

Yes, it's at the time when certain mouth breathing fuckwits startled labeling hate fiat, aka I don't like what you are doing, so RANDOM ENEMIES OVER DOUBLE YOUR LEVEL NERF IT as house rules. Actual house rules, and not hate fiat are acceptable. Also, for house rules to have merit to a discussion, they must be stated in advance.

Quote
Hmm... Fair points except lets say the prisoner has an undershirt on thus concealing the tattoo. Obviously you will probably wait till he is in the shower to view him but at that point you sure are one hell of a hero.

See what I mean about hate fiat? You are so determined to railroad the PCs into your little herp derp capture scenario you'll do everything you can to try and bully them into it. Which means, as stated and proven, the only purpose of such situations is to allow terrible DMs, that cannot write actually interesting plots to jerk around the PCs and force them to do what he wants.

Sunic, provide what you would imagine is an interesting plot or challenge? We continue to see your criticize others and yet when asked to provide your own base for such judgments you hide. Please show us what you construct to be interesting plots. I bet somewhere in there they involve having an ice demon continuously waiting in the snow waiting to kill the characters...

I'm afraid my books are away from me so I don't know if the teleport spell works (never mind you don't have access to it because of your level) but if it does (and why a prison wouldn't have some form of protection against that is ludicrous) you still have enacted the release of prisoner so a group of Zelekhuts are now alerted to you. 

It has already been stated and proven that level 5 characters can cast that spell. And oh look, more hate fiat from everyone's favorite Mouth Breathing Fuckwit 1/Power Tripper 1/Waste of Oxygen 1.

However, despite the fact he contributes nothing of value to the discussion, I would like for the mouth breathing fuckwit to continue his whining and flailing. After all, he is doing a better job of proving that capture is a fate worse than death to me. So I can just sit back, make him do my work for me, and then smite him out of his misery when he is no longer of use. There are few things more entertaining to a Crusader of Logic then having your enemies do your work for you, after all.

You have yet to prove that capture is a fate worse than death because in one can be reversed while another can not be. You have yet to prove it because one ends a character's journey (there are exceptions but you aren't creative enough to utilize them) while the other only provides a character with more adventure.

Also you should try to upgrade your smiting technique but it seems my kind, you know being the King and all, have taken over. We are immune to your ways.

Aharon

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Re: Challenging 3.5 and Pathfinder Parties in Practice
« Reply #105 on: February 08, 2011, 12:47:24 PM »
@Capture/Losing WBL is a Fate worse than Death
I thought the guidelines in the DMG were supposed to apply regardless of what happens - so if the group loses all their equipment due to capture, you should hand out more treasure over the next few encounters still they are back at WBL?

@Losing a level to Raise Dead
Didn't someone calculate that XP-loss due to crafting actually leads to faster XP-accumulation? The same would be the case for XP-loss due to death, wouldn't it?
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RelentlessImp

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Re: Challenging 3.5 and Pathfinder Parties in Practice
« Reply #106 on: February 08, 2011, 12:54:20 PM »
Also you should try to upgrade your smiting technique but it seems my kind, you know being the King and all, have taken over. We are immune to your ways.

Immune to logic, or immune to intelligent thought? Either way, yes, you've certainly proved that.
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Sunic_Flames

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Re: Challenging 3.5 and Pathfinder Parties in Practice
« Reply #107 on: February 08, 2011, 12:59:44 PM »
@Sunic
A question:
What would you do with a group of inexperienced players that are not interested in optimization? Kill them again and again? Because I'm faced with that situation as the DM of my group. If I didn't coddle them, they would repeatedly die. That wouldn't be fun for them, I think, and neither would I enjoy it.

Recommend they play high tier characters, if they refuse to actively learn what works and what doesn't. But yes, whatever happens happens. If that means killing them again and again, that's what happens. You can either promote bad play or remove it. By showing them that yes, their actions do matter, and that there are consequences for their actions you teach them they are responsible for their own safety and enjoyment. As such, play will improve and the slaughter will cease. You can argue that it's not fun to do so, but either you have an unentertaining slaughter, followed by a fun game, or you have a game that is unentertaining. One means there will be fun, one means there will not.

If the moderation is so bad that Sunic can go about like this, then I can damn well go about like that.

This is not the Paizil boards, you cannot invoke the Paizil Fallacy, and then go hide behind the moderator's skirts when the meanieface Sunic comes out to put you in your place. This is also not the GitP forums, so you can also forget about getting the mods to ban people because they told you you failed at reading comprehension.

Quote
The paizil fallacy? You're invoking it wrong. Basically what you're saying is 'my opinion is fact, because my ego is large enough to validate it. Hi welcome.

Fail, and fail. You are invoking the Paizil Fallacy, both now and then. You are also using the wrong form. Hi Welcome

Quote
Like, I'm really trying to wrap it around my head if you're a troll or just fucking stupid. You do realise the game is played in more ways than yours?

No, you don't get to hide behind your handwaving bullshit. There is such a thing as objective truth, and you will learn what it is if I have to burn it into you. That means that there are correct answers and there are incorrect answers. You of course are full of Wrongness and Fail, whereas I, and others are correct.

Quote
Oh look, you assume I'm talking about level 1, fuckwit. If the players chose to play a blaster wizard and a healer cleric, then they aren't going to play rocket tag. Because the DM is fucking stupid if he continually throws encounters at the party for punishing how the want to play, so (1) they actually go by CR and (2) They aren't going to fight ice devil ambushes or incredible numbers, they're going to fight NPCs. Your realise an enemy Human Fighter 7 is listed as CR7? Yeah, a party of four lv7 unoptimized people will fight that single fighter 7. Or 2 fighter 5s. Look mom, no rocket tag! I'm not whining and flailing that lv1s can't survive, you are.

You mentioned level 1, fuckwit. You assume any level other than 1, blasting still fails, healing still fails, the game is still RLT - you just don't have any mother fucking rockets, so you automatically fail. Even if you assume the extreme coddling that is easy mode humanoid NPCs (and by the way, the Orcs that still absolutely slaughter level 1s ARE HUMANOID NPCs). But even those terribly gimpy Fighter 5s, or 7s still have fucking Rockets. Even though the party does not.

Hi Welcome, you fail. Now drive forward.

Quote
Blaster wizard is bad, but he isn't packing rockets, so the DM won't either. It isn't coddling, it's good DMing. Do any of you fuckwits even read the DMG?

Herp derp, all enemies still have Rockets, even if you make a fail build that doesn't. This isn't DDO, there is no bullshit Dungeon Scaling, and even if there was, the fact ALL ENEMIES HAVE ROCKETS means YOU PICK A GODDAMN ROCKET LAUNCHER UP OR YOU GET THE FUCK OUT.

Hi Welcome

Quote
Like fuck, you'd be dropped from a debate team so quickly. Public masturbation. Anyone that goes around on the internet calling themselves the crusader of logic when they don't know the first fucking thing about it has issues.

Says the guy who has yet to provide a single point of actual substance, instead hiding behind handwaving bullshit, failure, and justification of the same. Also, a constant stream of lies.

Now there's another mouth breathing fuckwit posting, but he's just saying the same drivel he always does. So it is not worth even smiting him, as he can't even find new and imaginative ways to fail, such is the scope of his fail.
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Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.

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[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

Sunic_Flames

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Re: Challenging 3.5 and Pathfinder Parties in Practice
« Reply #108 on: February 08, 2011, 01:04:44 PM »
@Capture/Losing WBL is a Fate worse than Death
I thought the guidelines in the DMG were supposed to apply regardless of what happens - so if the group loses all their equipment due to capture, you should hand out more treasure over the next few encounters still they are back at WBL?

Nope. You get the cash, and if you go and spend it all on bags of salt... well you have a whole lot of salt, and not a lot of level appropriateness. Similarly, lost/stolen items are gone forever. To do otherwise is to both reward failure, and encourage players to consumable spam everything. But even if it did work that way, that just brings us back to dicking the PCs around for the lulz - assuming you can even get out to start recovering your gear, which of course you do not.

Quote
@Losing a level to Raise Dead
Didn't someone calculate that XP-loss due to crafting actually leads to faster XP-accumulation? The same would be the case for XP-loss due to death, wouldn't it?

Being a level lower results in approximately 1/3rd more XP. The difference is that crafting both saves you money, and makes you better at what you do. Dying, and being raised has the exact opposite effect. So instead of being down some XP (and it'd take a LOT of crafting to be a full level behind) but up a lot of wealth and thus power, and also gaining about a third extra XP until you catch up you lose money, and are down a level, and slowly catch up on the levels but still remain behind on the wealth. Not to mention, giving the scenario being discussed you're dying too fucking often to regain the XP back anyways.
Smiting Imbeciles since 1985.

If you hear this music, run.

And don't forget:


There is no greater contribution than Hi Welcome.

Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.

IP proofing and avoiding being CAPed OR - how to make characters relevant in the long term.

Friends don't let friends be Short Bus Hobos.

[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

veekie

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Re: Challenging 3.5 and Pathfinder Parties in Practice
« Reply #109 on: February 08, 2011, 01:06:42 PM »
@Capture/Losing WBL is a Fate worse than Death
I thought the guidelines in the DMG were supposed to apply regardless of what happens - so if the group loses all their equipment due to capture, you should hand out more treasure over the next few encounters still they are back at WBL?

@Losing a level to Raise Dead
Didn't someone calculate that XP-loss due to crafting actually leads to faster XP-accumulation? The same would be the case for XP-loss due to death, wouldn't it?
Right on both counts, but being dead tends to be more inconvenient for actual play, what with being unable to act for the duration(Revivify discounted), at least until the levels where having a 'return to life' spell prepared in place of a more actively useful spell is feasible.

So for capture, the challenge is to regain WBL in the shortest available time. Strip guards naked while you start your rampage through captivity, raid armories and of course, find the loot storage room, where they dumped your stuff. Or pick up quests from your captor(theres a reason they captured you instead of killing, presumably, and if its not to gloat while you die slowly(which is the same as you know, death), they want something out of you), get released with your gear and hey, quest xp and next plot hook.

For death, assuming a party member survives to revive you, it can be more inconvenient. Until you have life/death reversal magic readily at hand(players in a high lethality environment should get a scroll or two), the dead player has to sit it out for a bit.
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[/spoiler]

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Sunic_Flames

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Re: Challenging 3.5 and Pathfinder Parties in Practice
« Reply #110 on: February 08, 2011, 01:13:54 PM »
Oh, forgot to mention. Everything I said about Raise Dead assumes you immediately drop everything and go get it. Doesn't always happen. If you have to stay dead a while, you miss out on more XP, and likely treasure as well.
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If you hear this music, run.

And don't forget:


There is no greater contribution than Hi Welcome.

Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.

IP proofing and avoiding being CAPed OR - how to make characters relevant in the long term.

Friends don't let friends be Short Bus Hobos.

[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

Unbeliever

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Re: Challenging 3.5 and Pathfinder Parties in Practice
« Reply #111 on: February 08, 2011, 02:16:15 PM »
@Sunic
A question:
What would you do with a group of inexperienced players that are not interested in optimization? Kill them again and again? Because I'm faced with that situation as the DM of my group. If I didn't coddle them, they would repeatedly die. That wouldn't be fun for them, I think, and neither would I enjoy it.

Gradually ramp up the difficulty. Teach them what's unoptimal and what's optimal. Overall, though, if you're enjoying your game, then play it that way. But don't try to force those views on those of us who don't play the same way. That's basically the entirety of this argument: People are throwing "their game" as an example rather than how the rules work unmodified. Except Sunic, whose arguments are actually based on the base mechanics of the game we're all playing.
Sort of, kind of.  Sunic occasionally uses wonky interpretations of the rules that elevate the importance of some tactics over others.  Also, his iterative probability calculus is too stark to correctly model the game.

But, the point is well-taken, I think. 

[spoiler]
That being said, since all D&D requires some set of baseline gentleman's agreement, otherwise we'd all be rampaging TO pun-puns at the table, my read of the threads is that other people's baseline set of assumptions for the system is just considerably different than Sunic's.  That's part of what's going on in Frank and K's Tomes, too. 
[/spoiler]

Sunic_Flames

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Re: Challenging 3.5 and Pathfinder Parties in Practice
« Reply #112 on: February 08, 2011, 02:57:27 PM »
Wrong yet again.
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There is no greater contribution than Hi Welcome.

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[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

Talore

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Re: Challenging 3.5 and Pathfinder Parties in Practice
« Reply #113 on: February 08, 2011, 03:10:21 PM »
Your E-peen is showing.

I wonder what would happen if you saw a game without rocket tag, Sunic? Would your mind explode? Would you bow your arrogant neck and admit you may be wrong? Or would you continue to yell over the internet until the day you die that you're smarter than everyone else? Hmm? Serious question, because I doubt the usefulness of actually trying to show you what I guess 80% of games go like.
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Sunic_Flames

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Re: Challenging 3.5 and Pathfinder Parties in Practice
« Reply #114 on: February 08, 2011, 03:25:28 PM »
Your E-peen is showing.

I wonder what would happen if you saw a game without rocket tag, Sunic? Would your mind explode? Would you bow your arrogant neck and admit you may be wrong? Or would you continue to yell over the internet until the day you die that you're smarter than everyone else? Hmm? Serious question, because I doubt the usefulness of actually trying to show you what I guess 80% of games go like.

You like it? It's quite large after all, and good for beating down idiots.

And sure, games exist like that. They're not called D&D though, unless it's 4.Fail. D&D games are Rocket Tag. PF more than 3.x, and 1st and 2nd a bit more or less than 3.x depending on level, but it's still there, and it's still strong regardless.

So despite your whining and flailing, you fail yet again.

Hi Welcome
« Last Edit: February 08, 2011, 03:27:37 PM by Sunic_Flames »
Smiting Imbeciles since 1985.

If you hear this music, run.

And don't forget:


There is no greater contribution than Hi Welcome.

Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.

IP proofing and avoiding being CAPed OR - how to make characters relevant in the long term.

Friends don't let friends be Short Bus Hobos.

[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

Unbeliever

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Re: Challenging 3.5 and Pathfinder Parties in Practice
« Reply #115 on: February 08, 2011, 03:26:35 PM »
Wrong yet again.
Awesome response.  I'm not talking about "coddling" or "how one plays, or ought to play the game."  I'm talking about just the underlying math.  "Stark," used here, is a nice word for "too simplistic to plausibly model the world we are interested in talking about."  The probabilities in a D&D game are too difficult b/c of the breadth, more accurately the complication (it's reasonably easy to solve many games where the strategy space is infinite, as in the real number line), of the strategy space to get an appropriate sense of them except in simple scenarios.  People can try and run through scenarios, and maybe that gives you some traction, but at the level of a general statement you're not going to get at it. 

[/begin actual game theory]
Consider chess, an example I've already posted about at least once before.  See, I know w/out any doubt there is a Nash equilibrium to chess.  That is, given what the other player is doing there is a "right" way of playing it, given the goal of winning, etc.  This is a fact, given by the definition of chess and by the definition of Nash equilibrium.  However, we have no idea of what it is.  It's just too computationally complex, which is saying something given modern computer power.  Now, that's a game w/ no chance (no dice rolling), identical moves available to the each player (white and black have the same pieces, same exact beginning configuration), and well-defined victory conditions. 

Once you add in chance, and the incredibly large number of options available in something like Magic:  the Gathering, not to mention D&D, it becomes incredibly hard just to intuit what will happen over a large set of interactions.  Moreover, D&D characters change very frequently, through leveling, treasure, etc.  And, none of this is accounting for human error.  At that point then we have to include things like "trembling hand" refinements, which make any general conclusions kind of hand-wavy.  Actually, once we are in what is essentially an infinitely-repeated game, any set of interactions that is large and lacks a predetermined stopping point, we usually have to resort to folk theorems, so we're already on shaky ground. 

It is true that in a very simple game, one in which say everyone makes just straight attack rolls, saves, and damage rolls, you could maybe get some traction on things.  But, once you add in things like Celerity, Diamond Mind counters, and complicated beliefs about what one's opponents can do, as well as the highly tactical nature of 3.5 D&D where 1 square on a battlemap can make an actual difference, the probabilities become prohibitively hard to estimate. 
[/end actual game theory]

[/begin actual probability calculus]
Now, here's the thing.  If it's a straight iterative probability, then it's all very easy.  If the probability that Team Player loses is non-zero, then they will lose.  Eventually.  Guarantee it.  Even if it is very very small.  This is Sunic's point about iterative probability.  The only reason to play, in such a world, is I suppose out of idle curiosity as to when that's going to happen.  Although if I have any sense of what the probability of loss function is, then I don't even need to do that.  I can make a very educated guess as to when it's going to happen. 

It's not straight probability, though.  There's a strategic interaction, updating, etc.
[/end actual probability calculus]

I'm writing this mostly b/c the misuse has irked me.  I do not expect this to persuade Sunic, he seems impervious to such things, but I wanted to bring it to light.  I have my own feelings about why we actually bother playing the game and the appropriate ends of character optimization, but I think I've rambled enough and have work waiting for me. 

Talore

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Re: Challenging 3.5 and Pathfinder Parties in Practice
« Reply #116 on: February 08, 2011, 03:31:53 PM »
Quote from: Wikipedia.org
No true Scotsman

I'll just leave this here. D&D games are D&D games, rocket tag or not.

Welcome to logic 101.
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Bester

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Re: Challenging 3.5 and Pathfinder Parties in Practice
« Reply #117 on: February 08, 2011, 03:34:31 PM »
Serious question, because I doubt the usefulness of actually trying to show you what I guess 80% of games go like.

I think it's higher than that.  Of the multiple games I've played in and DM'd over the last 15 years or so, I've only met 2 other players like myself who are lured by the desire to be...useful.

The old system before point buy was dreadful to me.  A fighter with 14 HP at level 6in 2nd edition(would have been 6 HP if I didn't talk him into that 9 at level 1), sucked compared to a lucky 90 HP player with house rules out the ass (let's give him 18/00 str and 19 con (he rolled all 10s)).  Being slapped down for wanting to be useful and optimized is wrong, and it really should be the opposite way around.

In the game I'm in now, my character just sits in the background and buffs the party(heroics for the win).  It works for me and my character is useful without other dms(revolving dm game) feeling the need to screw my character over.  Battles quickly go in our favor if I can get good buffs up and the sorc battlefield controls.

I agree with Sunic however, that the game as written is an arms race that the pcs cannot afford to lose.  Being at the mercy of the DM gets old quick and all DMs should follow the rules.  That's why I'm a fan of letting the player roll the dice for the DM(except where secrecy is needed).
« Last Edit: February 08, 2011, 03:36:20 PM by Bester »

Sunic_Flames

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Re: Challenging 3.5 and Pathfinder Parties in Practice
« Reply #118 on: February 08, 2011, 03:37:30 PM »
Ignoring "Math is HARD!" whining.

Campaigns are long, but they do have a finite length. In fact, 253 and a third fights will 1-20 you. It's right there in the book. It is not possible to absolute zero your failure rate, and due to there being 253 and a third fights, and you must win every single one of them even a low failure rate will quickly approach one. Even so there is a window in which you are not immune to death, but can IP proof yourself sufficiently to survive the campaign. It requires a near perfect success rate on every single fight, around 99.9% or so, but it's there. Any non zero chance will approach 1, but if sufficiently low it approaches 1 slower than you approach level 20.

So there's your reason to play. Overcoming the overwhelming odds of heavily skewed victory conditions, thereby allowing you to accomplish your character goals (all of which are of course predicated on the assumption you are alive to pursue them) and do whatever it is you do.

And apparently the fuckwit is trying to call 4.Fail D&D. Though really, even 4.Fail becomes Rocket Tag fairly easily. All enemies in an encounter focus fire on the same person. Despite their piddly shit damage, the fact there are so many of them means they get scratched to death. Doesn't matter who the person is, even if it's the "Defender" (who the game tells you should be aggroing all the MOBs, when he can only handle 1-2 at a time, just like everyone else) they either get one rounded, or beaten down hard in round 1, can't heal fast enough, and get put down on round 2. This is despite the fact 4.Fail is one of the slowest paced combat games you will ever find anywhere. Tabletop, video game, doesn't matter. If it's not an MMO, it's a lot faster.
Smiting Imbeciles since 1985.

If you hear this music, run.

And don't forget:


There is no greater contribution than Hi Welcome.

Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.

IP proofing and avoiding being CAPed OR - how to make characters relevant in the long term.

Friends don't let friends be Short Bus Hobos.

[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

Talore

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Re: Challenging 3.5 and Pathfinder Parties in Practice
« Reply #119 on: February 08, 2011, 03:42:32 PM »
Stop putting words in my mouth, I don't even know how 4ed works.

I ran a solo game for my friend. He had some level-appropriate fights, a lot of story-telling, and a lot of plot-based challenges. Most of the combats lasted at least 5 rounds. Rocket tag didn't come into play. We were using 3.5ed without any houserules. Oh look, I just played a game of 3.5ed without rocket tag, therefore 3.5 is not exclusively rocket tag. I dare you to not respond with no true scotsman.
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