Author Topic: Challenging 3.5 and Pathfinder Parties in Practice  (Read 25530 times)

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Endarire

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Challenging 3.5 and Pathfinder Parties in Practice
« on: January 30, 2011, 10:54:55 PM »
Intro
I know this document is long and linked (not board code), but itsummarizes arguments and how things work when taken, at least in part, to a logical extreme.  I assume the game isn't in a Tippyverse.

DOWNLOAD version 1 31 11
« Last Edit: February 01, 2011, 02:37:47 AM by Endarire »
Hood - My first answer to all your build questions; past, present, and future.

Speaking of which:
Don't even need TO for this.  Any decent Hood build, especially one with Celerity, one-rounds [Azathoth, the most powerful greater deity from d20 Cthulu].
Does it bug anyone else that we've reached the point where characters who can obliterate a greater deity in one round are considered "decent?"

X-Codes

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Re: Challenging 3.5 and Pathfinder Parties in Practice
« Reply #1 on: January 30, 2011, 11:28:13 PM »
I read the first half.  Taken to the logical extreme, that sounds about right, but reliable defenses means either going first or investing good deal of money into AC/Saves.  My issue is with Phases 2 and 3.  In phase 2, miss chance is decent, but AC isn't as worthless as the guy writes.  When any 1 attack can feasibly kill you, dumping your AC really isn't a good idea, especially since it's still not hard to have a decent AC.

In Phases 3 and 4, I think the guy actually overestimates pretty much any attempt at defense.  Spells start coming with no saves attached, so it just becomes a matter of negating that one immunity to that one spell you can to cast on a guy to completely negate his effectiveness in a fight until you have the time available to properly kill him.  Of course, death really doesn't mean anything at this point.  Everyone has the resources necessary to cheat death more-or-less indefinitely, and while soul destroying is possible, it's ridiculously hard to do against anything that's prepared to deal with it.

Sunic_Flames

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Re: Challenging 3.5 and Pathfinder Parties in Practice
« Reply #2 on: January 31, 2011, 12:20:28 PM »
Mostly accurate, but...

Way too much wanking about AMF, which any half decent caster laughs at and thanks you for, but beatsticks are shafted by as bad or worse as the casters are supposed to be. Wild Magic too, which is basically the DM saying herp derp I won't allow your class to work because GIANT FROG - which is the exact same thing the writer bitches about everywhere else.

The game is at its most RLT at the LOWEST levels.

Level 1, some random nobody herp derps you with a single swing, chances are you're going down.

Level 10, you can still die very quickly. But there's also things you can do about it to prevent yourself from dying. In other words, IP proofing measures.
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IP proofing and avoiding being CAPed OR - how to make characters relevant in the long term.

Friends don't let friends be Short Bus Hobos.

[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

veekie

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Re: Challenging 3.5 and Pathfinder Parties in Practice
« Reply #3 on: January 31, 2011, 12:49:53 PM »
Yeah, up until 4th or so, getting oneshotted is practically routine.
And as you go above 10th, the number of ways to get oneshotted and the number of ways to block these ways grow like a kudzu.
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."

Endarire

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Re: Challenging 3.5 and Pathfinder Parties in Practice
« Reply #4 on: January 31, 2011, 10:12:45 PM »
Sunic, veekie: May I get more specific info?

Sunic: What do you mean by "RLT?"  Also, why does an antimagic field hurt non-casters more than casters?
« Last Edit: January 31, 2011, 11:45:36 PM by Endarire »
Hood - My first answer to all your build questions; past, present, and future.

Speaking of which:
Don't even need TO for this.  Any decent Hood build, especially one with Celerity, one-rounds [Azathoth, the most powerful greater deity from d20 Cthulu].
Does it bug anyone else that we've reached the point where characters who can obliterate a greater deity in one round are considered "decent?"

veekie

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Re: Challenging 3.5 and Pathfinder Parties in Practice
« Reply #5 on: February 01, 2011, 12:55:51 AM »
Level 1: Your health uses the same formula as weapon damage. 1dX+Y vs maxed 1dX+Z, where Z is usually a secondary stat and Y is a primary.
Level 2-4: Your health uses the same formula as a non power attacked critical hit/full natural attack damage dice. Except your health isn't maxed dice anymore.
Level 10+: Melee monsters can hit for twice your hp on a charge/full attack with a bit of luck to get one more attack to connect than they should. Proliferation of instakill attacks.
All levels: Save or die/lose effects. Color Spray and Sleep at early levels, with no-save-just-die stuff showing up later.

Antimagic Field: Casters in an antimagic field walk out of it(if you're using the spell, it's honestly tiny), and resume spellcasting. Terrain alteration spells and projected effects(Telekinesis hurled rocks for example) bypass it entirely, as does instantaneous barriers or in the extreme case, using Invoke Magic to get casting back in an AMF.
Meleers do not have the option of stepping back, as their role remains in close combat, however, ALL their AC based defenses derive from magic. A fighter in an AMF drops from AC in the 30s to AC in the 10s. They rely heavily on magic items for attack as well, losing a quarter of their to-hit from stat boost items and magic weapons and any additional damage sources for those relying on virtual/real size increases, enhancements and bonus damage to wreck shit.
Where a caster normally retreats out of an AMF and resumes his job, a meleer retreating out of an AMF is not doing his job of tying up the bad guy.
Monsters have no such drawback. A dragon still has its immense strength, size(hello grapple), and insane full attack, only all of them are going to hit now, even with power attack.

Long story short, AMFs bugger everyone but monsters.
Meleers get extra screwed.
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."

Endarire

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Re: Challenging 3.5 and Pathfinder Parties in Practice
« Reply #6 on: February 01, 2011, 02:38:05 AM »
Updated!  Thankee!
Hood - My first answer to all your build questions; past, present, and future.

Speaking of which:
Don't even need TO for this.  Any decent Hood build, especially one with Celerity, one-rounds [Azathoth, the most powerful greater deity from d20 Cthulu].
Does it bug anyone else that we've reached the point where characters who can obliterate a greater deity in one round are considered "decent?"

veekie

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Re: Challenging 3.5 and Pathfinder Parties in Practice
« Reply #7 on: February 01, 2011, 05:15:53 AM »
Quote
Eye color, weight, favorite meal
This one did matter!
Delicious halflings.
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Challenging 3.5 and Pathfinder Parties in Practice
« Reply #8 on: February 01, 2011, 05:27:35 AM »
Quote
Eye color, weight
Clearly you've never visited a heavily trapped kobold warren.
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Re: Challenging 3.5 and Pathfinder Parties in Practice
« Reply #9 on: February 01, 2011, 09:23:25 AM »
Quote
Eye color, weight, favorite meal, and name are optional.  Such factors don’t affect the game mechanically very much.
This one did matter!
Delicious halflings.
Goddamn snakes with high CMB and not enough room to evade the grapple on that boat. :P
And yes, you do not want to be a halfling near a hungry Bullette.
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Sunic_Flames

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Re: Challenging 3.5 and Pathfinder Parties in Practice
« Reply #10 on: February 01, 2011, 10:37:25 AM »
Sunic, veekie: May I get more specific info?

Sunic: What do you mean by "RLT?"  Also, why does an antimagic field hurt non-casters more than casters?

Rocket Launcher Tag.

The caster's response to an AMF is to calmly 5 foot step or move action out of it, and insert Conjuration: Creation spell to win encounter. As you must be a high level caster to cast AMF, and you must center the spell upon yourself, the result is a character who has turned off all of their own class features, and has no defenses to speak of, so you can blow them away trivially. Low saves, low HP, doesn't hold up so well to an Orb to the face. If said caster had not chosen to forfeit the encounter by casting AMF, they could easily have dealt with such.

The beatstick, meanwhile has lost all his magic items. Which means his stats get dropkicked through the floor, and he cannot be relevant. He can however be killed in a single enemy full attack, even if it would normally take 2 as he's down several HP per level, and has an AC around 20 regardless of what it originally was. So auto attack, PA for full, dead beatstick.

And more specific info on what?
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If you hear this music, run.

And don't forget:


There is no greater contribution than Hi Welcome.

Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.

IP proofing and avoiding being CAPed OR - how to make characters relevant in the long term.

Friends don't let friends be Short Bus Hobos.

[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

Endarire

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Re: Challenging 3.5 and Pathfinder Parties in Practice
« Reply #11 on: February 02, 2011, 02:25:05 AM »
Sunic: Why is rocket tag most pronounced at the lowest levels?
Hood - My first answer to all your build questions; past, present, and future.

Speaking of which:
Don't even need TO for this.  Any decent Hood build, especially one with Celerity, one-rounds [Azathoth, the most powerful greater deity from d20 Cthulu].
Does it bug anyone else that we've reached the point where characters who can obliterate a greater deity in one round are considered "decent?"

veekie

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Re: Challenging 3.5 and Pathfinder Parties in Practice
« Reply #12 on: February 02, 2011, 03:53:46 AM »
Other than the damage matter(which I already explained), at low levels, characters have the least access to immunities and resistances against save lose effects at that level and few ways even for optimisers to raise numbers.
Consider an Entangle, if you fail the save, you're stuck trying to make an absurd strength check or become unable to move or cast effectively. At higher levels, you might have Freedom of Movement or itemized teleportation to get around it.
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."

Sunic_Flames

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Re: Challenging 3.5 and Pathfinder Parties in Practice
« Reply #13 on: February 02, 2011, 12:09:33 PM »
Sunic: Why is rocket tag most pronounced at the lowest levels?

Because you can't do shit about it.

At level 1, you die in a single attack.

At level 10, you die in one full attack.

Obviously, it's harder to deliver something that makes it so you can't move more than 5 feet than something that can get you up to 60 feet away regardless of build or actions.

If it takes two, instead of one multiple enemies. These are most common at the lowest levels, as you can pack 2 Medium size Warrior 1s into a single routine encounter (3 in Pathfailure) and anything harder than routine will have more. It won't take more than two from anything remotely level appropriate.

On the magic side...

At level 1, save or loses are DC 15 without trying, more with specialization, and you get a +1 "you exist" bonus in Pathfailure. They're all Will based.

Will saves at this level range from -1 (some beatstick with 8 Wis) to +6 (standard divine caster, becomes +7 in Pathfailure). Ignoring the outliers, that's a greater than 50% chance of being negated in 1 action. In some cases it's as high as 75%. Even if you count divine casters, it still has a 40% success rate against them. With no specialization.

At level 10, save DCs will be a bit higher. Probably around DC 21 if you're not trying, +1 "you exist" bonus in Pathfailure. But you can IP proof a whole lot better with immunities, and save boosters, and so forth. Passing level appropriate saves on a 2-5 is not that hard. Sure you could still have bad saves, but then either your DM is coddling you, or you're dying all the time.

Basically, the higher level you are, the more forcefields you have to block enemy rockets. This assumes you have a competent DM though. If you have a herp derper, expect him to get mad about becoming outright immune to anything, and make the game even more Rocket Tag by removing defenses from it, leaving only the offenses.
Smiting Imbeciles since 1985.

If you hear this music, run.

And don't forget:


There is no greater contribution than Hi Welcome.

Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.

IP proofing and avoiding being CAPed OR - how to make characters relevant in the long term.

Friends don't let friends be Short Bus Hobos.

[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

Endarire

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Re: Challenging 3.5 and Pathfinder Parties in Practice
« Reply #14 on: February 02, 2011, 09:43:28 PM »
Thanks, Sunic!  But explain what you mean by "IP Proofing."
Hood - My first answer to all your build questions; past, present, and future.

Speaking of which:
Don't even need TO for this.  Any decent Hood build, especially one with Celerity, one-rounds [Azathoth, the most powerful greater deity from d20 Cthulu].
Does it bug anyone else that we've reached the point where characters who can obliterate a greater deity in one round are considered "decent?"

oslecamo

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Re: Challenging 3.5 and Pathfinder Parties in Practice
« Reply #15 on: February 02, 2011, 10:22:14 PM »
Antimagic Field: Casters in an antimagic field walk out of it(if you're using the spell, it's honestly tiny), and resume spellcasting. Terrain alteration spells and projected effects(Telekinesis hurled rocks for example) bypass it entirely, as does instantaneous barriers or in the extreme case,
You truly never saw the lockdown build? Ticket of blades, standstill,  and some other feats and the oponent cannot 5-foot step or move away at all.

using Invoke Magic to get casting back in an AMF.
Also a spell higher level than AMF itself, and only a wizard can afford to learn it, so not always a possibility.

Meleers do not have the option of stepping back, as their role remains in close combat, however, ALL their AC based defenses derive from magic. A fighter in an AMF drops from AC in the 30s to AC in the 10s.
You mean the AC the fighter was droping anyway to go all shock trooper on his oponents?

They rely heavily on magic items for attack as well, losing a quarter of their to-hit from stat boost items and magic weapons and any additional damage sources for those relying on virtual/real size increases, enhancements and bonus damage to wreck shit.
On the other hand, the monster also lost his Su defenses and SLA buffs. And most of a melee's damage comes from power attack shenigans, not magic buffs. The fighter mostly needs magic buffs to protect himself against, you guessed it, magic attacks. Conjuration effects like Fogs/ entangle can easily be dealt by IRON HEART SURGE.

Where a caster normally retreats out of an AMF and resumes his job, a meleer retreating out of an AMF is not doing his job of tying up the bad guy.
If your fighter cannot lock down a magicless caster, what chance does he have to lockdown the monster?

If he can lockdown the angry dragon, then he damn well can lock down the magicless caster.

Monsters have no such drawback. A dragon still has its immense strength, size(hello grapple), and insane full attack, only all of them are going to hit now, even with power attack.
They were going to hit before anyway. Specially with the dragon's magic buffs and arcane strike.

Long story short, AMFs bugger everyone but monsters.
Lots of monsters are dangerous because they have dangerous Su abilities and SLAs. AMF can bugger them a good deal.

Meleers get extra screwed.
Well, if they were so badly built that they really needed that +5 from magic weapon and can't even trip a magicless caster, they were screwed either way.

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Challenging 3.5 and Pathfinder Parties in Practice
« Reply #16 on: February 03, 2011, 02:33:08 AM »
There's also the "shrunken wizard hat of awesome"
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Re: Challenging 3.5 and Pathfinder Parties in Practice
« Reply #17 on: February 03, 2011, 04:26:58 AM »
Antimagic Field: Casters in an antimagic field walk out of it(if you're using the spell, it's honestly tiny), and resume spellcasting. Terrain alteration spells and projected effects(Telekinesis hurled rocks for example) bypass it entirely, as does instantaneous barriers or in the extreme case,
You truly never saw the lockdown build? Ticket of blades, standstill,  and some other feats and the oponent cannot 5-foot step or move away at all.
using Invoke Magic to get casting back in an AMF.
Also a spell higher level than AMF itself, and only a wizard can afford to learn it, so not always a possibility.
That's a nice spell to have. I'll have to look for it.

Meleers do not have the option of stepping back, as their role remains in close combat, however, ALL their AC based defenses derive from magic. A fighter in an AMF drops from AC in the 30s to AC in the 10s.
You mean the AC the fighter was droping anyway to go all shock trooper on his oponents?
Well, you yourself put an example of a beatstick who needed AC (the lockdown one). It's usually not pretty healthy going standstill without AC. And he requires those magical enhancements to threat range. And the Shock trooper fighter needs to be able to charge through difficult terrain or against flying opponents, both things he can (mostly) only get through magic. And, while a Shock Trooper can get out of a AMF as easily as a caster, he loses the posibility to charge in that same turn.

They rely heavily on magic items for attack as well, losing a quarter of their to-hit from stat boost items and magic weapons and any additional damage sources for those relying on virtual/real size increases, enhancements and bonus damage to wreck shit.
On the other hand, the monster also lost his Su defenses and SLA buffs. And most of a melee's damage comes from power attack shenigans, not magic buffs. The fighter mostly needs magic buffs to protect himself against, you guessed it, magic attacks. Conjuration effects like Fogs/ entangle can easily be dealt by IRON HEART SURGE.
Well, too many monsters are a threat without any spellcasting or Su or Sp ability at all. That said, in some cases this applies.

Where a caster normally retreats out of an AMF and resumes his job, a meleer retreating out of an AMF is not doing his job of tying up the bad guy.
If your fighter cannot lock down a magicless caster, what chance does he have to lockdown the monster?

If he can lockdown the angry dragon, then he damn well can lock down the magicless caster.
You aren't locking a caster. Most of the time, you are pitched against a powerful melee monster who happens to have AMF available.
And he can lockdown a dragon thanks to those magic items. Try locking a dragon when you are unable to fly, and your threat range is the standard 10 feet.

Which, BTW, is the radius of AMF, so you'd have him exactly where you want. Not that that matters, or anything... :P
I love deconstructing myself.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2011, 06:10:58 AM by Shadeseraph »
[spoiler]
I hate mouth breathing fuckwits who go around spouting lies, even after being corrected on those lies, and that bait mods into helping to defend their wrongness and fail. I also hate the MBFs that don't understand the meaning of words, and that can't get a fucking clue.
Hey! I like spouting lies. It's very entertaining to observe how people on the internet are buffing their small egos by declaring victories over some stupid MBFs. :smirk
Also - I hate people who use too smart words that I don't understand. :mad

Hi Welcome

Go fuck yourself, because others won't do it for you.

Stop flirting you two.  :p
[/spoiler]

veekie

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Re: Challenging 3.5 and Pathfinder Parties in Practice
« Reply #18 on: February 03, 2011, 05:39:13 AM »
Quote
You aren't locking a caster. Most of the time, you are pitched against a powerful melee monster who happens to have AMF available.
And he can lockdown a dragon thanks to those magic items. Try locking a dragon when you are unable to fly, and your threat range is the standard 10 feet.
Exactly, any standard PC race caster using AMF is likely using shenanigans to get around getting his own spells shut off(usually by excluding himself from the effect somehow), monstrous spellcasters are the issue, with the worst offender being dragons.
A dragon who raised an AMF is the biggest baddest bruiser around. And good luck resisting the grapple.
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."

oslecamo

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Re: Challenging 3.5 and Pathfinder Parties in Practice
« Reply #19 on: February 03, 2011, 08:45:05 AM »
Quote
You aren't locking a caster. Most of the time, you are pitched against a powerful melee monster who happens to have AMF available.
And he can lockdown a dragon thanks to those magic items. Try locking a dragon when you are unable to fly, and your threat range is the standard 10 feet.
Exactly, any standard PC race caster using AMF is likely using shenanigans to get around getting his own spells shut off(usually by excluding himself from the effect somehow), monstrous spellcasters are the issue, with the worst offender being dragons.
A dragon who raised an AMF is the biggest baddest bruiser around.
He also made itself unable to use celerity shenigans, so hey, actually easier to lockdown! Dragons have excellent natural stats... But if the casters are using and abusing celerity, then the dragon just commited suicide by droping all his magic options.

This is, how precisely does the AMF dragon catches up with the celerity/abrupt jaunt wizard that just laughs and teleports away whenever the dragon aproaches?  The fighter just made the dragon to drop his only chance of victory!

And good luck resisting the grapple.
Close combat quarters.