Author Topic: Getting a War Hulk to routinely make a DC 25 Knowledge (Religion) check.  (Read 12303 times)

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The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Getting a War Hulk to routinely make a DC 25 Knowledge (Religion) check.
« Reply #20 on: January 30, 2011, 11:45:14 PM »
Item familiar.
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Phoenix00

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Re: Getting a War Hulk to routinely make a DC 25 Knowledge (Religion) check.
« Reply #21 on: January 31, 2011, 12:19:06 AM »
Sacrificial Mastery (from BoVD, p50,the same book as the Sacrifice rules) gives you a +4 Profane Bonus to Knowledge Religion checks involving a sacrifice.  Problem is that it requires Wis 15 for this feat.

There is also an awesome feat (if you have no spellcasters in the party, or low level spellcasters) in Dragon 336 p101 called Sacrifical Divination.  Requires Sacrifical Mastery.  You make a sacrifice check and get one of these results depend on how high the check was
10   augury
15   scrying
20   divination
25   commune
30   greater scrying

X-Codes

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Re: Getting a War Hulk to routinely make a DC 25 Knowledge (Religion) check.
« Reply #22 on: January 31, 2011, 12:36:51 AM »
Yes, yes.  What I want to know, now, is what the definition of a Temple is in D&D terms.  Is it something special, or can I just carry around a giant rock and some candles on my back and set up a temple with that whenever I feel like it?

Catty Nebulart

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Re: Getting a War Hulk to routinely make a DC 25 Knowledge (Religion) check.
« Reply #23 on: January 31, 2011, 12:47:21 AM »
Yes, yes.  What I want to know, now, is what the definition of a Temple is in D&D terms.  Is it something special, or can I just carry around a giant rock and some candles on my back and set up a temple with that whenever I feel like it?

I don't think there is a hard and fast definition except ones specific to some deity or other. The best guidance you are probably going to get is consecrate/desecrate spell which refers to permanent fixtures, like an altar. Permanent is such an imprecise word however it would seem to nix a portable shrine,  then again I do think a one or two ton altar would ussualy be considered permanent, even if the warhulk can carry it.

My suggestion would be to worship an evil deity with the travel domain, they would probably approve of a portable shrine, use the magic item rules to have it cast desacrate once per day as you plant it for worship.
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Phoenix00

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Re: Getting a War Hulk to routinely make a DC 25 Knowledge (Religion) check.
« Reply #24 on: January 31, 2011, 12:47:38 AM »
Seriously I think the best solution is to just take 1 level of Cleric to get Cleric spells on your Spell List and thus able to use Spell Trigger Items such as wands and then just uses these spells (combine with Jack of All Trades).

Assuming 1 level dip into Cleric, and Jack of All Trades
+1   Int Modifier(Jack of All Trades requires Int of 13)
+2   Masterwork Item
+5   Tome of Worldly Memory, Competence Bonus
+8   Wand of Divine Insight, 2nd level Spell.  (Divine Insight is 5+CL and since you need CL of 3 to cast 2nd level spells, the total is 8), Insight Bonus
+5   Wand of Sacrificial Skill, 1st level Spell, Untyped Bonus
+2   Ceremony conducted on an Altar, Circumstance Bonus
+1   Subject has 1-5 HD, Circumstance Bonus
Thus you will have 24 for the modifiers before the 1d20 roll.  You always roll a 1 or higher, thus you will always make the DC check of 25

Now the cost per day for this is the charges you use from your two wands.  The market price (not the crafting price) of a wand is as follows 750*Level of the Spell*CL.  You are using 1 charge per day thus the total cost per day is 15*Level of the Spell*CL
Well you have one 1st level spell at CL 1 (Sacrificial Skill), and one 2nd level spell at CL 3 (Divine Insight).  Thus the total cost is 15gp+90gp for a total of 105 gp per day.  I consider this to be damn cheap.

Don't like expendable items, then get your DM to allow you to make eternal wands of these spells (820 gp for 1st level, 4420 for 2nd level).  Now normally eternal wands are only arcane spells, but this rule is silly for the pricing of eternal wands are based off the guidelines located here http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicitems/creatingmagicitems.htm  Eternal Wands are command word items with a cost of Spell Level*Caster Level*1800gp/Divided by Charges per day.  Only difference is that Eternal Wands can be used two times per day while the normal prices would only allow 1 use per day at those price, in exchange Eternal Wands can be used via people who have some form of arcane training while people such as a fighter needs a UMD check.

Now a 1 level dip into Cleric has the added benefit of gaining two domains or two devotion feats.

X-Codes

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Re: Getting a War Hulk to routinely make a DC 25 Knowledge (Religion) check.
« Reply #25 on: January 31, 2011, 01:07:28 AM »
Yeah, a 1-level dip into Cleric is pretty damn powerful for this kind of build.  That said, I'm fairly confident now that I don't need Jack of All Trades.  Instead, I think I'd rather do something like...

Barbarian 1/Cleric 1/Dragon Shaman 5, with fractional BAB gives +5.  I get 4 Draconic Auras (Insight, Senses, Vigor, Stamina) with a +2 bonus and the Draconic Knowledge invocation.  Thanks to that, I can pretty much just leave Int at 10.

+2 Masterwork Item (Circumstance)
+5 Tome of Worldly Memory (Competence)
+6 Draconic Knowledge (Untyped, allows untrained checks)
+2 Insight Draconic Aura (Untyped)
+5 Sacrificial Skill (Untyped, what the hell I'm a Cleric anyway)
+1 Ceremony lasts an Hour (I call them Circumstance, but probably, technically, Untyped.  Not that important of a distinction here.)
+2 Ceremony conducted on an altar
+1 Subject has 1-5 HD
Total: +24
« Last Edit: January 31, 2011, 01:10:13 AM by X-Codes »

Phoenix00

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Re: Getting a War Hulk to routinely make a DC 25 Knowledge (Religion) check.
« Reply #26 on: January 31, 2011, 10:05:10 AM »
Looks good but one thing.  Wand of Sacrificial Skill last mins/level.  If the ceremony lasts an hour you need a handwave via your DM allowing you to cast the wand during the ceremony or else the duration of the spell is not long enough to last through the ceremony.

Ithamar

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Re: Getting a War Hulk to routinely make a DC 25 Knowledge (Religion) check.
« Reply #27 on: January 31, 2011, 02:23:22 PM »
Why not just use a Skillful weapon and not bother with all these shenanigans?  Or is 5 points of BAB (at level 20) really worth all of this?

Sure, if you're going into Epic territory you want that BAB as high as possible I suppose to make sure you get your 4th attack; but in Epic if you can't figure out how to hit a DC 25 Knowledge check, then you've probably already lost.
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Bauglir

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Re: Getting a War Hulk to routinely make a DC 25 Knowledge (Religion) check.
« Reply #28 on: January 31, 2011, 03:21:53 PM »
Isn't it 10 points of BAB? That's pretty potent, if you're in a position to hit things. Remember, War Hulks literally have no BAB advancement. It's not even Poor.
So you end up stuck in an endless loop, unable to act, forever.

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Bozwevial

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Re: Getting a War Hulk to routinely make a DC 25 Knowledge (Religion) check.
« Reply #29 on: January 31, 2011, 03:25:19 PM »
Isn't it 10 points of BAB? That's pretty potent, if you're in a position to hit things. Remember, War Hulks literally have no BAB advancement. It's not even Poor.
Using a skillful weapon will bump his BAB to 15, but Divine Power will bump it to 20.

Ithamar

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Re: Getting a War Hulk to routinely make a DC 25 Knowledge (Religion) check.
« Reply #30 on: January 31, 2011, 03:48:55 PM »
Yep, that was my point.  Most games aren't played at level 20, so if you're only talking about level 10 or 12, then the difference is fairly insignificant.  And even if this is a level 20 game, at least having a Skillful weapon (or two) as a back up is probably a good idea.
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X-Codes

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Re: Getting a War Hulk to routinely make a DC 25 Knowledge (Religion) check.
« Reply #31 on: January 31, 2011, 04:21:40 PM »
Yep, that was my point.  Most games aren't played at level 20, so if you're only talking about level 10 or 12, then the difference is fairly insignificant.  And even if this is a level 20 game, at least having a Skillful weapon (or two) as a back up is probably a good idea.
Actually, with the build I presented, playing at level 12 means gaining 7 points of BAB by using Divine Power, and gaining only 4 by using a skillful weapon.  That's the difference between one iterative and two, and only getting one iterative costs me 18k that I could, instead, use on a serious weapon.  This setup only costs me 1500 for the book (which has more than just the one use), and 50 for the masterwork tool, assuming we lump in the costs of the port-a-priory with the general cost of having an enveloping pit headquarters.  There's no wand involved, I'm a first-level Cleric, remember.  I can just cast it myself.  I also save myself the costs of ever buying a +Strength item, because I've got a divine blessing giving me +6 Strength already.

What's more, I'm not sure that this ability can be dispelled.  There's no caster level for the effects, which are supposed to be divine blessings for a sacrifice well done.  You can even make the argument that they're Ex effects given that you're using an Ex ability (a skill) to activate them.

As for handwaving, I don't think that will be a problem.  A spell to enhance a sacrifice cast during a sacrificial ritual doesn't seem like a stretch at all to me.  If not, then I can replace the +1 gained from it being an hour-long ritual easily enough.  Honestly, by the time I start sacrificing people I can probably manage to sacrifice at least one 6HD dude each day.

Mixster

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Re: Getting a War Hulk to routinely make a DC 25 Knowledge (Religion) check.
« Reply #32 on: January 31, 2011, 05:56:32 PM »
Remember you can get Skill Focus (Knowledge religion) from the Frog Gods Fane in Complete Scoundrel 3000g for the feat IIRC. Should cut out some of the more expensive options.
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vilenatas

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Re: Getting a War Hulk to routinely make a DC 25 Knowledge (Religion) check.
« Reply #33 on: January 31, 2011, 06:07:42 PM »
What about using an instant fortress at some point to have a portable temple.  Getting a permanent desecrate and an altar inside the fortress might require handwaving, but you might just be able to just have your instant fortress slightly customized.

Nunkuruji

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Re: Getting a War Hulk to routinely make a DC 25 Knowledge (Religion) check.
« Reply #34 on: January 31, 2011, 06:11:07 PM »
What's more, I'm not sure that this ability can be dispelled.  There's no caster level for the effects, which are supposed to be divine blessings for a sacrifice well done.  You can even make the argument that they're Ex effects given that you're using an Ex ability (a skill) to activate them.

As a DM,

Given the other check results are often stated with (cast at 20th level), I would say it's a spell effect of 20th level and may be dispelled.

If I was feeling particularly nice, if a PC actually enacted a number of Typical Sacrifice Elements, in a well role-played manner, I would grant it as an (Su), thus preventing dispel, but still vulnerable to AMF, of course.

Definitely not an (Ex), as the effect comes from the deity, rather than some innate or physical reason.

JaronK

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Re: Getting a War Hulk to routinely make a DC 25 Knowledge (Religion) check.
« Reply #35 on: January 31, 2011, 06:12:48 PM »
Easy temple: buy an Enveloping Pit (6' diameter, 60' deep).  That's enough to build a 7-8 story tower in the darn thing.  Surely you could build a small temple in there, complete with alter.

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Amechra

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Re: Getting a War Hulk to routinely make a DC 25 Knowledge (Religion) check.
« Reply #36 on: January 31, 2011, 07:49:37 PM »
Alternatively, find some way of counting as a Dwarf. Why? Because, my friends, Dwarves get Ancestral Knowledge, which makes all the Knowledges Wisdom based skills, and allows you to use them untrained (iirc on the second part.) So basically, three levels of Stoneblessed and you are golden.

On the subject of our friend the altar, see if you can find an evil deity with War and Travel as parts of his portfolio. Then, just convert the altar into a siege weapon, and...

Plus, remember all those class features that give you the ability to fling rocks REALLY well...
[spoiler]Fighter: "I can kill a guy in one turn."
Cleric: "I can kill a guy in half a turn."
Wizard: "I can kill a guy before my turn."
Bard: "I can get three idiots to kill guys for me."

On a strange note, would anyone be put out if we had a post about people or events we can spare a thought for, or if its within their creed, a prayer for? Just a random thought, but ... hells I wouldn't have known about either Archangels daughter or Saeomons niece if I didn't happen to be on these threads.
Sounds fine to me.
probably over on "Off-topic".
might want to put a little disclaimer in the first post.

This is the Min/Max board. We should be able to figure out a way to optimize the POWER OF PRAYER(TM) that doesn't involve "Pazuzu, Pazuzu, Pazuzu".
[/spoiler]

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Amechra

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Re: Getting a War Hulk to routinely make a DC 25 Knowledge (Religion) check.
« Reply #38 on: January 31, 2011, 10:03:27 PM »
"And so, here is the holy battering ram. Yes, this is rules legal."
[spoiler]Fighter: "I can kill a guy in one turn."
Cleric: "I can kill a guy in half a turn."
Wizard: "I can kill a guy before my turn."
Bard: "I can get three idiots to kill guys for me."

On a strange note, would anyone be put out if we had a post about people or events we can spare a thought for, or if its within their creed, a prayer for? Just a random thought, but ... hells I wouldn't have known about either Archangels daughter or Saeomons niece if I didn't happen to be on these threads.
Sounds fine to me.
probably over on "Off-topic".
might want to put a little disclaimer in the first post.

This is the Min/Max board. We should be able to figure out a way to optimize the POWER OF PRAYER(TM) that doesn't involve "Pazuzu, Pazuzu, Pazuzu".
[/spoiler]

My final project for my film independent study course. It could do with a watching and critiquing

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Getting a War Hulk to routinely make a DC 25 Knowledge (Religion) check.
« Reply #39 on: January 31, 2011, 10:44:59 PM »
Or worship Sertrous (elder evils).  Grants domains as a philosophy - that is, pick whatever the hell you want.
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