Author Topic: What does it take to make epic levels tolerable?  (Read 5756 times)

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betrayor

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Re: What does it take to make epic levels tolerable?
« Reply #20 on: January 26, 2011, 07:35:34 PM »
I don't like all these restrictions that people apply to epic play....
It is epic ,it is supposed to be this powerful.....
I think that while applying some of the houserules wouldn't be a problem,applying them all would take away from the game.....
Of course this is just my opinion.....

awaken DM golem

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Re: What does it take to make epic levels tolerable?
« Reply #21 on: January 26, 2011, 07:38:41 PM »
" ... If you never gain 6th level spells you gestalt. This includes SLAs but not Su abilities. ... "

Niice.
Along those lines, make the Full Casters take a 5/10 or 6/10 PrC.

AtomicKitKat

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Re: What does it take to make epic levels tolerable?
« Reply #22 on: January 26, 2011, 10:54:09 PM »
The nerf to SoD means the Word of Death spells are less potent than normal, but still ridiculous on anything with fewer HD. I've always thought those 4 should grant at least a Will save(or Will+Fort, one per sub-effect).

bearsarebrown

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Re: What does it take to make epic levels tolerable?
« Reply #23 on: January 26, 2011, 11:17:52 PM »
Power Word spells are neglibable because everyone has more then 100hp. And killing mooks is whatever.

@awaken DM golem, why? Spellcasters will get 9s anyways because its epic. I was considering saying all casting PrCs become full casting just because its stupid that they don't. Balance wise it doesn't change much. (There is very little someone with CL 25 and 9s can do that someone with CL 19 and 9s can do)

veekie

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Re: What does it take to make epic levels tolerable?
« Reply #24 on: January 26, 2011, 11:21:08 PM »
I don't like all these restrictions that people apply to epic play....
It is epic ,it is supposed to be this powerful.....
I think that while applying some of the houserules wouldn't be a problem,applying them all would take away from the game.....
Of course this is just my opinion.....
The changes don't make you weaker however, they make you stronger.
A weaker epic character can regularly oneshot a stronger, as long as he manages to act before hes offed. The changes help slow that down.

And of coures, make it playable to begin with.
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bearsarebrown

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Re: What does it take to make epic levels tolerable?
« Reply #25 on: January 26, 2011, 11:23:50 PM »
@veekie, exactly. As is, Epic plays like a combination of Extreme Rocket Tag and Magical Tea Party.

betrayor

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Re: What does it take to make epic levels tolerable?
« Reply #26 on: January 26, 2011, 11:32:58 PM »
I did not say that changes are not needed....
I just think that we should allow for epic characters to be considerably stronger than regular ones......

veekie

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Re: What does it take to make epic levels tolerable?
« Reply #27 on: January 26, 2011, 11:35:14 PM »
^^
The thing is, as is, epic characters aren't stronger than regular characters, because they die in one hit anyway.
No amount of raising defense would help given the magnitude of offensive output, not without deific immunities and impenetrable damage reduction to reduce all fights to "I blast him. I blast him again." x10
@veekie, exactly. As is, Epic plays like a combination of ExtremeStrategic Nuke MLRS Rocket Tag and Magical Tea Party.
Fixed.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2011, 11:37:07 PM by veekie »
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It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

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I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
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To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
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Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
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Nytemare3701

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Re: What does it take to make epic levels tolerable?
« Reply #28 on: January 27, 2011, 12:05:39 AM »
I reworked the Epic spellcasting fix. It's usable now as a standalone houserule, but it will work better with the rest of the rewrites backing it up.

Unbeliever

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Re: What does it take to make epic levels tolerable?
« Reply #29 on: January 27, 2011, 12:58:52 AM »
I did not say that changes are not needed....
I just think that we should allow for epic characters to be considerably stronger than regular ones......
The most attractive thing to me about Epic is breaking the usual rules.  They don't have to be in huge ways, but stuff like making unlimited attacks of opportunity (now the AoO master can literally hold the line against the army of orcs) or having an extra swift/immediate action per round.  There may be better examples than those, but that's what it is to me.  ymmv

Nytemare3701

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Re: What does it take to make epic levels tolerable?
« Reply #30 on: January 27, 2011, 01:39:39 AM »
I did not say that changes are not needed....
I just think that we should allow for epic characters to be considerably stronger than regular ones......
The most attractive thing to me about Epic is breaking the usual rules.  They don't have to be in huge ways, but stuff like making unlimited attacks of opportunity (now the AoO master can literally hold the line against the army of orcs) or having an extra swift/immediate action per round.  There may be better examples than those, but that's what it is to me.  ymmv

That's all well and good, but all too often Epic rules either do too little or far too much. The epic jump feat blows, while epic spellcasting is just plain broken.

Unbeliever

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Re: What does it take to make epic levels tolerable?
« Reply #31 on: January 27, 2011, 03:31:52 AM »
I did not say that changes are not needed....
I just think that we should allow for epic characters to be considerably stronger than regular ones......
The most attractive thing to me about Epic is breaking the usual rules.  They don't have to be in huge ways, but stuff like making unlimited attacks of opportunity (now the AoO master can literally hold the line against the army of orcs) or having an extra swift/immediate action per round.  There may be better examples than those, but that's what it is to me.  ymmv

That's all well and good, but all too often Epic rules either do too little or far too much. The epic jump feat blows, while epic spellcasting is just plain broken.
Well, sure, but Epic Spellcasting is the major outlier here.  And, hell, it opens up a whole new mechanics sub-system w/ just a feat.  I can't think of another one off the top of my head that is crazy powerful.  Maybe Vorpal Strike?  But, then you have to play a Monk, and even then, decapitation on a Natural 20 isn't all that big a deal, even if you have a fair number of attacks (I'm assuming it uses the 3.5 version of Vorpal).  I suppose there's a couple other ridiculous ones -- the unlimited range one maybe -- but few spring to mind.  Stuff like Lingering Damage or Sneak Attack of Opportunity feel about right to me. 

I haven't played w/ Epic Spellcasting, except in a limited way, in a long long time.  My group is too lazy to come up w/ a fundamental fix to it.  Setting that aside, a lot of the epic feats are going to fall into the "too little" or "I need what as a prereq?!" category, viz. Dire Charge. 

bearsarebrown

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Re: What does it take to make epic levels tolerable?
« Reply #32 on: January 27, 2011, 01:43:08 PM »
Updated a couple things. Added line to Gestalt about being able to forfeit abilities in favor of Gestalt. This is to avoid silly things where you want to play gestalt Rhakshasa Barbarian but can't because they have a 6th level SLA.

What I'm looking for is major abuses and/or headaches. Epic Spellcasting, no matter how it's fixed, is a flawed system. Allowing players to create spell effects will always be broken or worthless. If players want plot magic they can search for a MacGuffin.

Nytemare3701

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Re: What does it take to make epic levels tolerable?
« Reply #33 on: January 27, 2011, 02:49:44 PM »
Updated a couple things. Added line to Gestalt about being able to forfeit abilities in favor of Gestalt. This is to avoid silly things where you want to play gestalt Rhakshasa Barbarian but can't because they have a 6th level SLA.

What I'm looking for is major abuses and/or headaches. Epic Spellcasting, no matter how it's fixed, is a flawed system. Allowing players to create spell effects will always be broken or worthless. If players want plot magic they can search for a MacGuffin.

Go read my fix. It doesn't do that anymore.

AtomicKitKat

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Re: What does it take to make epic levels tolerable?
« Reply #34 on: January 27, 2011, 03:06:09 PM »
Stuff like Lingering Damage or Sneak Attack of Opportunity feel about right to me.

Devastating Critical is kind of too little, too late. Overwhelming Critical deserves to be bumped back down to pre-Epic(although it's still a massive Feat sink).

awaken DM golem

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Re: What does it take to make epic levels tolerable?
« Reply #35 on: January 27, 2011, 07:50:24 PM »

... why? Spellcasters will get 9s anyways because its epic. I was considering saying all casting PrCs become full casting just because its stupid that they don't. Balance wise it doesn't change much. (There is very little someone with CL 25 and 9s can do that someone with CL 19 and 9s can do)
It's kinda like Smith saying to Neo "It is inevitable."
Lagging the big boys is just a start.

otoh - I like massive powah ... sooo ... ignore (shrug) ?!

RobbyPants

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Re: What does it take to make epic levels tolerable?
« Reply #36 on: January 28, 2011, 10:18:17 AM »
  • Tome material is allowed and it's combat system. (Edge, BAB, so on)
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You may consider another Tome idea to limit divine casters as well: rather than knowing any published spell on your spell list automatically, you simply know all the spells in the PHB plus one additional spell from another source per spell level.  So, a 17th+ level cleric or druid knows only ten spells not in the PHB.

Although, I guess wizards at this point, with the wealth they've accumulated have probably cherry-picked every good non-core spell anyway, so maybe it's a non-issue.
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