Author Topic: Optimizing NPC Classes  (Read 5961 times)

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Ikeren

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Optimizing NPC Classes
« on: January 23, 2011, 11:36:15 PM »
Alright, I'm in a game where the optimization of NPC classes is basically necessary (for reasons I'm not going to explain here). While normally I'd simply take the group of 6th level PC's and leave the NPC's the hell alone, but in this campaign, we've gotten stuck with ~20 3rd level NPC's that we can stat out as we please. And we've got to try to make sure they survive combat encounters. It gets more fun, when the 3rd level NPC's get 100gp/per level in gear = 300gp. When we get to level 8, the NPC's get to level 4.

NPC's get Elite Array, average hit dice, pretty much have to be PHB races, no flaws, and no campaign setting specific material. Experts are not likely to be able to get away with Iajitsu focus. And we've got relatively little gold to equip them, though we might come up with more.

We're generally likely to go up against other groups of PC's and NPC's in the 1-5 level range. Feat retraining isn't likely, but the campaign is unlikely to go far enough to matter.

What I've come up with thus far:
3rd level Adepts with Spell Focus Enchantment, Greater Spell Focus: Enchantment and Unsettling Enchantment: Sleep DC 15, even if you save take -2 attack/ac. Some adepts also get item creation feats.
3rd level Warriors with Martial Study: Steel Wind, Martial Stance: Punishing Stance, and Improved Toughness
3rd level Warriors with Martial Study: Crusader's Strike, Martial Stance: Martial Spirit, and improved toughness
3rd level Warriors with Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, and Precise Shot

What other combos am I missing?

ninjarabbit

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Re: Optimizing NPC Classes
« Reply #1 on: January 24, 2011, 12:17:50 AM »
Elf expert 3: point blank shot, knowledge devotion
Human aristocrat 3: nymph's kiss, power attack, knowledge devotion
Human expert 3: wild cohort, nymph's kiss, knowledge devotion

wotmaniac

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Re: Optimizing NPC Classes
« Reply #2 on: January 24, 2011, 12:32:34 AM »
VoP?
with that little gold, and the fact that with that many of them, you'd go broke using your own money ....

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I think in this case the grammar is less important than whether the Str and Dex bonus provided to your created undead scales.

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Maat_Mons

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Re: Optimizing NPC Classes
« Reply #3 on: January 24, 2011, 12:36:47 AM »
Wild cohort would be a nice feat. 

How about human adepts with shape soulmeld (dissolving spittle), share soulmeld, and one of the feats that gives a point of essentia.  Every adept and his familiar can make a ranged touch attack for 2d6 acid damage at will. 

dark_samuari

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Re: Optimizing NPC Classes
« Reply #4 on: January 24, 2011, 12:49:27 AM »
Wild cohort would be a nice feat. 

How about human adepts with shape soulmeld (dissolving spittle), share soulmeld, and one of the feats that gives a point of essentia.  Every adept and his familiar can make a ranged touch attack for 2d6 acid damage at will. 

To sort of go off this kind of idea it might be fun to assign certain soulmelds to specific npcs.

You could build a small group akin to the X-Men.

Ikeren

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Re: Optimizing NPC Classes
« Reply #5 on: January 24, 2011, 12:58:52 AM »
DM's a little bit strict, so I doubt VoP would slide.
I don't really know Magic of Incarnum, but I guess now would be able the time to learn.

dark_samuari

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Re: Optimizing NPC Classes
« Reply #6 on: January 24, 2011, 12:59:54 AM »
Magic of Incarnum is very good for npcs and this type of situation. I might also look into Tome of Magic and the binder feats from it.

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Optimizing NPC Classes
« Reply #7 on: January 24, 2011, 03:33:04 AM »
Magic of incarnum, spellfire, planar familiar on the adepts (to get ones with regen/mindlink)

Hidden talent for some psionics.

As mentioned, some soulmelds.  Share soulmeld + shape soulmeld:soulspark familiar gets each of your adepts a pair of disposible henchment
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Ikeren

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Re: Optimizing NPC Classes
« Reply #8 on: January 24, 2011, 03:52:34 AM »
TML That's some good stuff, in particular, planar familiar I gotta look at. I doubt I'll get spellfire wielder past the DM (Faerun, and he said no campaign specific). Hidden Talent's a good call.

Planar Familiar: Planar Handbook Pg 41

Quote
How about human adepts with shape soulmeld (dissolving spittle), share soulmeld, and one of the feats that gives a point of essentia.

Nevermind, figure this one out.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2011, 04:05:40 AM by Ikeren »

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Optimizing NPC Classes
« Reply #9 on: January 24, 2011, 04:12:38 AM »
Note that you can have hawk familiars drop rocks on enemy heads.   They can carry two or three rocks, each of which can deal a d6 or so from falling damage.  They'll have the high ground, so they aren't going to be in jeopardy.  If you have more cash, acid flasks or alchemist's fire.

Depending upon how your DM rules draconic auras, draconic aura (vigor) might work - if so, it's definitely going to be quite useful.  Other auras (or some devotion feats) will work wonders as well - you've got a lot of guys, and you need to think about force multipliers.

Similarly, if you can get a reserve feat or two on the NPCs, that's going to help out a lot.

If you have any evil archer dudes, a maeluth can upgrade their bow to unholy for a minute (and pick up evil devotion to give the whole group DR 1).
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DavidWL

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Re: Optimizing NPC Classes
« Reply #10 on: January 24, 2011, 04:14:49 AM »
Cooperative spell is useful for a bunch of low-level mooks casting against a single high-level badass.  - David
Some Cool Quotes:  [spoiler]
Quote from: unknown
Non-PC activities like out of combat healing should be left to wands and NPCs. It's not fun to play a walking wand of CLW. Likewise, being a combat wall is not a viable PC role. A Wall of Force could do that.

-Sort of, but you left out the important note that a Wall of Force does it better.

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[/spoiler]
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Ikeren

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Re: Optimizing NPC Classes
« Reply #11 on: January 24, 2011, 04:36:39 AM »
You can't cast Planar Familiar on someone elses familiar, unfortunately. Odd restriction. Same with elemental familiar.

Sigh...Wizards of the Coast, you published a spell and feat by the same name. Why am I not surprised.

Still requires arcane caster level, which the adepts can't get without more effort than is worth.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2011, 04:39:44 AM by Ikeren »

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Optimizing NPC Classes
« Reply #12 on: January 24, 2011, 04:38:01 AM »
Cooperative spell is useful for a bunch of low-level mooks casting against a single high-level badass.  - David

The problem with that is you're better off hitting him with two DC 14 sleeps than one DC 16 sleep, and you're definitely better off trying three DC 14s over a single DC 18.  If your first attempt succeeds, you can retarget the other dudes.

Talking about the planar familiar feat, not the spell.  Note that techinally you can cast the planar familiar spell on your NPCs, since they aren't familiars, but the XP cost would be prohibitive.
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Ikeren

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Re: Optimizing NPC Classes
« Reply #13 on: January 24, 2011, 04:46:49 AM »
Ah, I see it now. Yeah, prohibitive exp cost.

Pretty much all the familiar stuff I've looked at (I checked some of the PHB2 feats too) requires arcane caster level, or sucks.

That being said, I've gone through magic of incarnum, and the Share Soulmeld+Obtain Soulmeld(Binding Spittle) + random +1 essentia feat to get a familiar launching 2d6 acid damage touch attacks is pretty fun. I just wish the range was a medium instead of 30 feet.

I did just also realize that the Draconic Auras are great. Everyone within 30 feet; 5 pts of an energy resist, fast healing 1, +1 damage, DR 1/magic, and 2 points of damage returned on attacks? That's well worth 5 feats from NPC's I'll never see again.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2011, 05:00:01 AM by Ikeren »

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Optimizing NPC Classes
« Reply #14 on: January 24, 2011, 05:24:06 AM »
Yeah, you might want to look at this
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DavidWL

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Re: Optimizing NPC Classes
« Reply #15 on: January 24, 2011, 05:31:20 AM »
Cooperative spell is useful for a bunch of low-level mooks casting against a single high-level badass.  - David

The problem with that is you're better off hitting him with two DC 14 sleeps than one DC 16 sleep, and you're definitely better off trying three DC 14s over a single DC 18.  If your first attempt succeeds, you can retarget the other dudes.

Depends.

If the DC is is 14, and the baddie has a base fort save of 20, he'll only lose on a natural 1.  With 20 rolls this is about 65% of the time.

However, if you do 1 groups of 20 people, DC -> 54, and he loses on anything but a natural 20
95% loss.

Best,
David
Some Cool Quotes:  [spoiler]
Quote from: unknown
Non-PC activities like out of combat healing should be left to wands and NPCs. It's not fun to play a walking wand of CLW. Likewise, being a combat wall is not a viable PC role. A Wall of Force could do that.

-Sort of, but you left out the important note that a Wall of Force does it better.

Quote from: Runestar / skydragonknight
The most powerful character is the one that you actually get to play.

Quote from: Operation Shoestring
I often have to remind people not to underrate divination.  The ability to effectively metagame without actually metagaming beats the ability to set things on fire more times than not.
[/spoiler]
DavidWL's Random Build Archive

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Optimizing NPC Classes
« Reply #16 on: January 24, 2011, 05:32:54 AM »
What guy with that high a fort save is going to have less than 5 HD?
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Ikeren

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Re: Optimizing NPC Classes
« Reply #17 on: January 24, 2011, 05:34:02 AM »
@TML: I think he was referring to "in general" rather than say, sleep specifically.

Pros and cons for sure, but we are more likely to come up against groups of weak enemies than single strong ones.
And in instances where we can get single strong enemies, odds are we'll be able to keep the NPC's back and just use PC's.
You're correct that it is better in some instances, but I think given the context of the campaign (Leading a group of refugees being attacked by raiding parties/part of a war effort doing cleanup), it won't be.

Cool GITP thread. Similar situation; except we're stuck leading them out of enemy territory. And we should have relatively few (0) cr 11 slaughterkings that are basically immune to magic.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2011, 05:39:10 AM by Ikeren »

Runestar

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Re: Optimizing NPC Classes
« Reply #18 on: January 24, 2011, 06:16:15 AM »
Kobold adept4 is cr1, and can cast 2nd lv spells like scorching ray.

Same for warrior4, but their stats suck, so don't expect them to do much outside of damage sponges.

They do get that ritual which gives them a 1st lv spell slot though, so with enough, you can have them spam magic missile or hail of stone and wear down the PCs through attrition. :smirk
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The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Optimizing NPC Classes
« Reply #19 on: January 24, 2011, 06:45:56 AM »
Also take a look at this thread:
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5344.0

Some tricks which are questionable: using magical training for spellcasting to qualify for precocious apprentice, then using that to fuel a reserve feat.
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