Tell me more about how 3.x was balance tested.

[The_Mad_Linguist]

Or a wall spell + fly. 

[Mixster]

Whereas an 8th level Sorc versus similarly-situated 2nd level fighters would do much better?  The reasons, I expect, being that (a) the Sorc can get his AC prohibitively high and (b) the Sorc has swift action types of defenses that would help protect him. 

In the scenario TML describes, where the people aren't clumped together, the AOE's seem less helpful in that case. 

I might have been off in my level guesses, hence my proviso, but as TML notes it really depends on our fighter dude.  A fighter dude w/ lots of reach and great cleave, or w/ mage slayer, or who happens to be a crusader (so he's healing on a few of those rounds) would fair much differently, and probably be fine, though we're speaking really roughly in what is a pretty tactical game. 

Yeah but if the sorcerers actually used real spells and not just magic missile the fighter would be much worse of.

Greases, Mists, Benign Transposition with Familiars, and Silent Images could really ruin his day.

Also, Celerity + Improved Invisibility would remove the need for casting defensively.
Who cares if you lose one turn when you are invisible anyway.

[X-Codes]

Oh come ON, typical sorcerer is going to cast FIREBALL!  8d6 averages to 28 damage, level 2 fighters have an average of 21 HP.  Saving throw DC is probably 18, fighter Reflex save is probably +0.  So, *maybe* one of the Fighters makes their save and survives with 7 hp, while the rest are all at -7 HP and dying.  An optimized, blasty Fire Sorcerer would have turned them all to dust, save or no.

[Mixster]

Oh come ON, typical sorcerer is going to cast FIREBALL!  8d6 averages to 28 damage, level 2 fighters have an average of 21 HP.  Saving throw DC is probably 18, fighter Reflex save is probably +0.  So, *maybe* one of the Fighters makes their save and survives with 7 hp, while the rest are all at -7 HP and dying.  An optimized, blasty Fire Sorcerer would have turned them all to dust, save or no.

Yeah but if they were clustered, so would he sorcerers be, and the fighter would take them all out with a single cleave. Chomp!

[X-Codes]

Oh come ON, typical sorcerer is going to cast FIREBALL!  8d6 averages to 28 damage, level 2 fighters have an average of 21 HP.  Saving throw DC is probably 18, fighter Reflex save is probably +0.  So, *maybe* one of the Fighters makes their save and survives with 7 hp, while the rest are all at -7 HP and dying.  An optimized, blasty Fire Sorcerer would have turned them all to dust, save or no.

Yeah but if they were clustered, so would he sorcerers be, and the fighter would take them all out with a single cleave. Chomp!

Not really, Fighter has a 5' radius in which he can cleave, Sorcerer has a 20' radius on his fireball.  Even if the Fighter has a reach weapon, the Sorcerer is still easily blasting 4 times the area of the Fighter each round, and he does enough damage that he just has to fire-and-forget.  No hit rolls necessary, and the saving throw is moot (the save means they're dying instead of dead).  The fighter is literally trying to fight bombs with a pointy stick at this point.

[Mixster]

Oh come ON, typical sorcerer is going to cast FIREBALL!  8d6 averages to 28 damage, level 2 fighters have an average of 21 HP.  Saving throw DC is probably 18, fighter Reflex save is probably +0.  So, *maybe* one of the Fighters makes their save and survives with 7 hp, while the rest are all at -7 HP and dying.  An optimized, blasty Fire Sorcerer would have turned them all to dust, save or no.

Yeah but if they were clustered, so would he sorcerers be, and the fighter would take them all out with a single cleave. Chomp!

Not really, Fighter has a 5' radius in which he can cleave, Sorcerer has a 20' radius on his fireball.  Even if the Fighter has a reach weapon, the Sorcerer is still easily blasting 4 times the area of the Fighter each round, and he does enough damage that he just has to fire-and-forget.  No hit rolls necessary, and the saving throw is moot (the save means they're dying instead of dead).  The fighter is literally trying to fight bombs with a pointy stick at this point.

Nah succeeding the saving throw means he is at 7 hp, which granted, means he will lose in a straight fight against the sorcerer, even if the sorcerer decided to draw a spear and stab him to death.

It would be easier to use something that requires no save though, like tentacles, which has a +16 to grapple, and the fighters will have +6. Meanings they have to roll high and you have to roll low for them to be able to try and escape, whereafter you will bomb them with more fun effects.

But yeah, even Fireball would do it.

[X-Codes]

Oh come ON, typical sorcerer is going to cast FIREBALL!  8d6 averages to 28 damage, level 2 fighters have an average of 21 HP.  Saving throw DC is probably 18, fighter Reflex save is probably +0.  So, *maybe* one of the Fighters makes their save and survives with 7 hp, while the rest are all at -7 HP and dying.  An optimized, blasty Fire Sorcerer would have turned them all to dust, save or no.

Yeah but if they were clustered, so would he sorcerers be, and the fighter would take them all out with a single cleave. Chomp!

Not really, Fighter has a 5' radius in which he can cleave, Sorcerer has a 20' radius on his fireball.  Even if the Fighter has a reach weapon, the Sorcerer is still easily blasting 4 times the area of the Fighter each round, and he does enough damage that he just has to fire-and-forget.  No hit rolls necessary, and the saving throw is moot (the save means they're dying instead of dead).  The fighter is literally trying to fight bombs with a pointy stick at this point.

Nah succeeding the saving throw means he is at 7 hp, which granted, means he will lose in a straight fight against the sorcerer, even if the sorcerer decided to draw a spear and stab him to death.

It would be easier to use something that requires no save though, like tentacles, which has a +16 to grapple, and the fighters will have +6. Meanings they have to roll high and you have to roll low for them to be able to try and escape, whereafter you will bomb them with more fun effects.

But yeah, even Fireball would do it.

Fighter is left at 7 HP if the Sorcerer knows Fireball just because he thinks it's a fun spell to have.  If he optimizes for blasting, he has a CL of at least 10 already, and can probably Empower at +1 or even for free, and might even have some extra damage from somewhere.  At this point, 52 damage is easy.  Something closer to 60 is what really ought to be expected.  At that point, the fighters just die.

[Gods_Trick]

Oh come ON, typical sorcerer is going to cast FIREBALL!  8d6 averages to 28 damage, level 2 fighters have an average of 21 HP.  Saving throw DC is probably 18, fighter Reflex save is probably +0.  So, *maybe* one of the Fighters makes their save and survives with 7 hp, while the rest are all at -7 HP and dying.  An optimized, blasty Fire Sorcerer would have turned them all to dust, save or no.

Not typical hopefully, just playtester typical. But even assuming blasty types, after understanding iteratives firsthand by seeing the soft bodies of their fellows get cleft, would move to something that puts more range between them and the fighters.

[X-Codes]

Oh come ON, typical sorcerer is going to cast FIREBALL!  8d6 averages to 28 damage, level 2 fighters have an average of 21 HP.  Saving throw DC is probably 18, fighter Reflex save is probably +0.  So, *maybe* one of the Fighters makes their save and survives with 7 hp, while the rest are all at -7 HP and dying.  An optimized, blasty Fire Sorcerer would have turned them all to dust, save or no.

Not typical hopefully, just playtester typical. But even assuming blasty types, after understanding iteratives firsthand by seeing the soft bodies of their fellows get cleft, would move to something that puts more range between them and the fighters.

In the other example, yeah.  Like having one of them cast Color Spray each round while the others continue the barrage of Magic Missiles.

[Gods_Trick]

Oh come ON, typical sorcerer is going to cast FIREBALL!  8d6 averages to 28 damage, level 2 fighters have an average of 21 HP.  Saving throw DC is probably 18, fighter Reflex save is probably +0.  So, *maybe* one of the Fighters makes their save and survives with 7 hp, while the rest are all at -7 HP and dying.  An optimized, blasty Fire Sorcerer would have turned them all to dust, save or no.

Not typical hopefully, just playtester typical. But even assuming blasty types, after understanding iteratives firsthand by seeing the soft bodies of their fellows get cleft, would move to something that puts more range between them and the fighters.

In the other example, yeah.  Like having one of them cast Color Spray each round while the others continue the barrage of Magic Missiles.

Even Grease would do it.

[Sunic_Flames]

You mention the Turtle Fail feat, but do not mention the standard DPS feat known as Power Attack? Do not pass Go, do not collect 200 dollars, you fail.

I think he mentioned because of improved trip.

You can turn into a wolf. Fuck that noise.

[Mixster]

You mention the Turtle Fail feat, but do not mention the standard DPS feat known as Power Attack? Do not pass Go, do not collect 200 dollars, you fail.

I think he mentioned because of improved trip.

You can turn into a wolf. Fuck that noise.

But then you wouldn't be tripping with your Bear Hands.

[ninjarabbit]

You mention the Turtle Fail feat, but do not mention the standard DPS feat known as Power Attack? Do not pass Go, do not collect 200 dollars, you fail.

I think he mentioned because of improved trip.

You can turn into a wolf. Fuck that noise.

But then you wouldn't be tripping with your Bear Hands.

That was UnBEARable

But seriously with improved trip you become a wolf with +4 on his trip modifier and who can make another attack after a successful trip

[Sinfire Titan]

But then you wouldn't be tripping with your Bear Hands.

That was UnBEARable

Please don't start that: It'll draw Stephen Colbert's attention and he'll nuke us from orbit.


I don't wanna end up on the Threat Down segment...

[Endarire]

My point in starting all these question threads is to get intelligent answers.  Some questions, like about how 3.x was balance tested, rarely get asked.

[X-Codes]

But then you wouldn't be tripping with your Bear Hands.

That was UnBEARable

Please don't start that: It'll draw Stephen Colbert's attention and he'll nuke us from orbit.


I don't wanna end up on the Threat Down segment...

Now you're giving me ideas.  If Colbert doesn't put us on TV, I'll blow something up! Most likely a GI Joe doll or matchbox racer...

[ninjarabbit]

But then you wouldn't be tripping with your Bear Hands.

That was UnBEARable

Please don't start that: It'll draw Stephen Colbert's attention and he'll nuke us from orbit.


I don't wanna end up on the Threat Down segment...

Now you're giving me ideas.  If Colbert doesn't put us on TV, I'll blow something up! Most likely a GI Joe doll or matchbox racer...

Come on, that was BEARly a pun

[Mixster]

But then you wouldn't be tripping with your Bear Hands.

That was UnBEARable

Please don't start that: It'll draw Stephen Colbert's attention and he'll nuke us from orbit.


I don't wanna end up on the Threat Down segment...

Now you're giving me ideas.  If Colbert doesn't put us on TV, I'll blow something up! Most likely a GI Joe doll or matchbox racer...

Come on, that was BEARly a pun

Oh stop I can hardly BEAR it.

[X-Codes]

I wasn't trying to make a pun, I was trying to be funny.

[Gods_Trick]

But then you wouldn't be tripping with your Bear Hands.

That was UnBEARable

Please don't start that: It'll draw Stephen Colbert's attention and he'll nuke us from orbit.


I don't wanna end up on the Threat Down segment...

Now you're giving me ideas.  If Colbert doesn't put us on TV, I'll blow something up! Most likely a GI Joe doll or matchbox racer...

Come on, that was BEARly a pun

Oh stop I can hardly BEAR it.

This is gettin emBEARassin guys