Per popular demand, I present... the Samurai.

[The_Mad_Linguist]

It makes the optimal strategy for a samurai in melee as follows:

Hit once
Run away.

Given the availability of boots of teleportation, this make any melee combat boil down to "did you get hit: yes or no". 

[Kuroimaken]

It makes the optimal strategy for a samurai in melee as follows:

Hit once
Run away.

Given the availability of boots of teleportation, this make any melee combat boil down to "did you get hit: yes or no". 

Still stoppable by Delay Death and/or regeneration.

Consider that you can do the same with an ubercharger but instead of the damage piling up over several rounds and then unleashing, he does that in one stroke. Same end result, less variables involved.

[The_Mad_Linguist]

I doubt there's any ubercharger that can deal several million damage with a single attack.

[Kuroimaken]

I doubt there's any ubercharger that can deal several million damage with a single attack.

The ubercharger doesn't have to survive that long, either - just deliver.

How do you propose the ability would work, then? The basic idea is "deals a fuckton of damage after X rounds/minutes/hours/days/centuries". Make it once every two rounds, perhaps?

Let's say our samurai deals 50 damage on the first turn.

2nd- 100
3rd- 200
4th- 400
5th- 800
6th- 1600
7th- 3200
8th- 6400
9th- 12800
10th- 25600.

Granted, there's probably no monster in D&D that'd make it past the 9th round without Persisted Delay Death. But that's hardly several million.

[The_Mad_Linguist]

Let's say you deal a pathetic 50 base damage at level 15.  That can result in a million and a half damage right there.

If surviving a single round of attacks is an issue, then you're making the samurai into a glass cannon, which doesn't really fit how I would think of them.


If you just DND mathed it, and made the damage multiplier equal to the number of rounds you delayed, I wouldn't have a problem so much.  But at, say, level 20, you shouldn't be able to multiply the amount of damage you deal by a million (2^20).  It makes hp completely pointless as a mechanic. 

If you want to rocket tag it, I'd suggest making a more badass version of the serene guardian's resonance ability (shattered gates of slaughtergarde, IIRC), with resonance points based upon damage dealt in a single stroke, rather than upon multiple attacks per turn.

[Kuroimaken]

Let's say you deal a pathetic 50 base damage at level 15.  That can result in a million and a half damage right there.

If surviving a single round of attacks is an issue, then you're making the samurai into a glass cannon, which doesn't really fit how I would think of them.


If you just DND mathed it, and made the damage multiplier equal to the number of rounds you delayed, I wouldn't have a problem so much.  But at, say, level 20, you shouldn't be able to multiply the amount of damage you deal by a million (2^20).  It makes hp completely pointless as a mechanic. 

If you want to rocket tag it, I'd suggest making a more badass version of the serene guardian's resonance ability (shattered gates of slaughtergarde, IIRC), with resonance points based upon damage dealt in a single stroke, rather than upon multiple attacks per turn.

Hmmm. Let's see.

Let's say he full attacks twice (once round), delays it for three turns. Early on (about 6th level) say he gets lucky, deals about 35 damage per full attack, maybe more. That gets us started on a pool of 70 damage, over two turns. To keep the math simple, and avoid split pools of damage, we'll use the combined pool and the first onset.

140 - 2nd round
210 - 3rd round

I still can't think of anything that survives it. But does it sound more reasonable now?

[Garryl]

While it looks awesome, Spirit Slash is numerically absurd. A little nick (1 damage) becomes lethal to all but the most hardened warriors in under a minute (8 rounds; 256 damage) with no recourse. And nothing says it can't be delivered with a bow from 1000 feet away.

Yeah, it's totally unbalanced.

*samurai throws an acid flask*
*samurai uses an item to teleport away*
*Two minutes later the target takes several million points of damage*

And the wizard isn't?

Look, we all know that combat lasts what? Maybe a minute at the most? So the samurai can kill an opponent over the course of a minute. During those ten rounds he's still in danger. Keep in mind that if he doesn't unleash the damage the target will never take it, therefore the target must kill the samurai before the samurai kills him. A little like rocket tag, perhaps, but it's SLOW rocket tag.

EDIT: Further, it's meant to be used with Iaijutsu, which precludes the use of ranged weapons. Wanna do it with a bow, fine, but it's going to take forever.

Spoiler for thoughts that I can't quite phrase right. Ignore them or not as you prefer.
[spoiler]
The default is for the samurai to declare the duration beforehand, which sets it to go off even if the samurai gets killed. Other than Delay Death followed by drowning healing, there's no way to recover from that much damage in a reasonable time frame (ie: before the Delay Death runs out). Even the might Tarrasque with its Regeneration 40 is out cold for over a month starting two minutes after it gets a paper cut. To regress from Reducto ad Absurdum a bit, dealing a very reasonable 50 damage to it and then getting out of the way for 4 rounds is enough to floor it.

If it's meant to be used with Iajutsu and not bows, then force it to be used with Iajutsu and not bows. But that's not the heart of the problem. Bows just make it safer, but it's already broken.

It's not rocket tag. It's MAD (mutually assured destruction). As soon as you hit, your opponent WILL die. They'll just rocket tag you back, killing you. Then everyone's dead. Compare to traditional rocket tag, where the winner actually lives. You're right, it's worse than just rocket tag in that way, but it's still a bad design paradigm.

I think rocket tag, ubercharger numbers, and imbalanced wizards are bad game design, too. That doesn't stop this from being bad. The numbers just get absurd. You might as well just say that if you let it get to 10 rounds or more, it just deals an arbitrarily large amount of damage when it goes off. Bam, you're at negative infinity.
[/spoiler]

[Kuroimaken]

[Garryl]

True dat. I see where you're coming from on this, and I've said my piece. I eagerly await the next installment of interesting ideas.

[Kuroimaken]

True dat. I see where you're coming from on this, and I've said my piece. I eagerly await the next installment of interesting ideas.

The input is appreciated. Following TML's suggestion, I've changed things to reflect D&D math. (Feels worse for some reason, but that may be just me...)

[oslecamo]

True dat. I see where you're coming from on this, and I've said my piece. I eagerly await the next installment of interesting ideas.

The input is appreciated. Following TML's suggestion, I've changed things to reflect D&D math. (Feels worse for some reason, but that may be just me...)

Good. Now you might explain why all samurais will be weaklings with Str 6, since battle grace allows you to use Dex for everything whitout penalties, and Dex just happens to boost AC, reflex saves and Iniative besides melee, so you have absolutely no reason to invest in Str besides being able to hold your weapon. Wich can be a basically weightless paper fan, for wich Str 6 is more than enough.

I know I said you should make Dex strong for melee combat, but I didn't meant to make Str obsolete! Battle grace should at least cost a feat or two or three (one for hiting, other for damage, other for combat maneuvers).

[Kuroimaken]

True dat. I see where you're coming from on this, and I've said my piece. I eagerly await the next installment of interesting ideas.

The input is appreciated. Following TML's suggestion, I've changed things to reflect D&D math. (Feels worse for some reason, but that may be just me...)

Good. Now you might explain why all samurais will be weaklings with Str 6, since battle grace allows you to use Dex for everything whitout penalties, and Dex just happens to boost AC, reflex saves and Iniative besides melee, so you have absolutely no reason to invest in Str besides being able to hold your weapon. Wich can be a basically weightless paper fan, for wich Str 6 is more than enough.

I know I said you should make Dex strong for melee combat, but I didn't meant to make Str obsolete! Battle grace should at least cost a feat or two or three (one for hiting, other for damage, other for combat maneuvers).

...Why?

No seriously, why?

Why should a fighter always need STR? Everyone knows the finesse fighter sucks. I'm trying to give that to the samurai, which makes perfect sense.

[oslecamo]

True dat. I see where you're coming from on this, and I've said my piece. I eagerly await the next installment of interesting ideas.

The input is appreciated. Following TML's suggestion, I've changed things to reflect D&D math. (Feels worse for some reason, but that may be just me...)

Good. Now you might explain why all samurais will be weaklings with Str 6, since battle grace allows you to use Dex for everything whitout penalties, and Dex just happens to boost AC, reflex saves and Iniative besides melee, so you have absolutely no reason to invest in Str besides being able to hold your weapon. Wich can be a basically weightless paper fan, for wich Str 6 is more than enough.

I know I said you should make Dex strong for melee combat, but I didn't meant to make Str obsolete! Battle grace should at least cost a feat or two or three (one for hiting, other for damage, other for combat maneuvers).

...Why?

No seriously, why?

Why should a fighter always need STR? Everyone knows the finesse fighter sucks. I'm trying to give that to the samurai, which makes perfect sense.

Because it's way better than any Str-based fighter. You get the same damage potential, and then better AC, Iniative and Reflex saves for free because you're based on Dex.

So why don't go ahead and make Con obsolete as well? Samurai gets to add Dex to HP and Fort saves. Why should a fighter always need Con after all?

[Kuroimaken]

True dat. I see where you're coming from on this, and I've said my piece. I eagerly await the next installment of interesting ideas.

The input is appreciated. Following TML's suggestion, I've changed things to reflect D&D math. (Feels worse for some reason, but that may be just me...)

Good. Now you might explain why all samurais will be weaklings with Str 6, since battle grace allows you to use Dex for everything whitout penalties, and Dex just happens to boost AC, reflex saves and Iniative besides melee, so you have absolutely no reason to invest in Str besides being able to hold your weapon. Wich can be a basically weightless paper fan, for wich Str 6 is more than enough.

I know I said you should make Dex strong for melee combat, but I didn't meant to make Str obsolete! Battle grace should at least cost a feat or two or three (one for hiting, other for damage, other for combat maneuvers).

...Why?

No seriously, why?

Why should a fighter always need STR? Everyone knows the finesse fighter sucks. I'm trying to give that to the samurai, which makes perfect sense.

Because it's way better than any Str-based fighter. You get the same damage potential, and then better AC, Iniative and Reflex saves for free because you're based on Dex.

So why don't go ahead and make Con obsolete as well? Samurai gets to add Dex to HP and Fort saves. Why should a fighter always need Con after all?

...and why, exactly, are you using a STR-based fighter as a measuring stick?

Out of the things you mentioned, only Initiative can be argued to be a real boost.

AC is no real defense. Everybody knows that. The only attacks that target Reflex are area-based damage attacks.

You'll notice I haven't given any initiative-boosting abilities to the samurai. That's because I felt it would be overkill otherwise. It's like giving WIS to all saves on a cleric.

Battle Grace also helps diminish MAD. Notice how a lot of samurai abilities use the highest of his mental ability scores for DCs and such but they don't directly increase damage (except for Shitou no Hate)? Without Battle Grace, a samurai would need AT LEAST three reasonably high attributes: STR for damage/hit, CON for HP/Fort (and no one EVER neglects CON), DEX if he wants to go the light armor route, and one other that influences pretty much half or more of his class abilities. That's four attributes out of six. Pretty much as MAD as the Paladin (who needs 14 Wis for spells, high Con as a melee type, high Str for damage/hit, and a reasonable Cha for both the face role and saves).

Want to make it so he needs one feat for each? Fine by me. But that's your game.

[oslecamo]

The only attacks that target Reflex are area-based damage attacks.

Entangle, grease, web, earthquake, shall I continue?

AC is no real defense. Everybody knows that.

Then by all means remove his armor proficiencies and make him fight in a kimono.

You'll notice I haven't given any initiative-boosting abilities to the samurai. That's because I felt it would be overkill otherwise. It's like giving WIS to all saves on a cleric.

Hey, you gave it 1-scratch-kill attacks, wanted to give it infinite stuns per round, settled for 4 stuns per round, the whole class is screaming overkill as it is.

Battle Grace also helps diminish MAD. Notice how a lot of samurai abilities use the highest of his mental ability scores for DCs and such but they don't directly increase damage (except for Shitou no Hate)? Without Battle Grace, a samurai would need AT LEAST three reasonably high attributes: STR for damage/hit, CON for HP/Fort (and no one EVER neglects CON), DEX if he wants to go the light armor route, and one other that influences pretty much half or more of his class abilities. That's four attributes out of six. Pretty much as MAD as the Paladin (who needs 14 Wis for spells, high Con as a melee type, high Str for damage/hit, and a reasonable Cha for both the face role and saves).

Warblade also needs 4 stats (Str, Dex, Con, Int). Anyone thinks a Warblade sucks around here?

Actualy your samurai wouldn't even care if he was adding +0 to damage from stats, because even if it just inflicts 1d10 damage the oponent is as good as dead, and it can't fight back at all because it's bound to fail one of the four stuns you inflicted on it, bypassing all immunities, remember?

A class doesn't really care that it's MAD when it's geting such overkill abilities.

[veekie]

I think the issue is because you basically made it so theres no real reason to ever go for a Str based samurai over a Dex or Con based one. And the archetype does contain those two types of samurai in abundance.

EDIT: Also giving it straight out "win fight" abilities doesn't really make it a superior class.
It's got a couple of additional options that help though.

[Kuroimaken]

I think the issue is because you basically made it so theres no real reason to ever go for a Str based samurai over a Dex or Con based one. And the archetype does contain those two types of samurai in abundance.

So what do you propose to do?

The only attacks that target Reflex are area-based damage attacks.

Entangle, grease, web, earthquake, shall I continue?

AC is no real defense. Everybody knows that.

Then by all means remove his armor proficiencies and make him fight in a kimono.

You'll notice I haven't given any initiative-boosting abilities to the samurai. That's because I felt it would be overkill otherwise. It's like giving WIS to all saves on a cleric.

Hey, you gave it 1-scratch-kill attacks, wanted to give it infinite stuns per round, settled for 4 stuns per round, the whole class is screaming overkill as it is.

Battle Grace also helps diminish MAD. Notice how a lot of samurai abilities use the highest of his mental ability scores for DCs and such but they don't directly increase damage (except for Shitou no Hate)? Without Battle Grace, a samurai would need AT LEAST three reasonably high attributes: STR for damage/hit, CON for HP/Fort (and no one EVER neglects CON), DEX if he wants to go the light armor route, and one other that influences pretty much half or more of his class abilities. That's four attributes out of six. Pretty much as MAD as the Paladin (who needs 14 Wis for spells, high Con as a melee type, high Str for damage/hit, and a reasonable Cha for both the face role and saves).

Warblade also needs 4 stats (Str, Dex, Con, Int). Anyone thinks a Warblade sucks around here?

Actualy your samurai wouldn't even care if he was adding +0 to damage from stats, because even if it just inflicts 1d10 damage the oponent is as good as dead, and it can't fight back at all because it's bound to fail one of the four stuns you inflicted on it, bypassing all immunities, remember?

A class doesn't really care that it's MAD when it's geting such overkill abilities.

Oslecamo, you're being awfully confrontative about this. Point by point...

1) Those are impediments, not attacks. Most of them only care if you can attack at range or not. And Earthquake? SERIOUSLY?

2) No. Armored samurai also exist. I've given benefits both for the light/unarmored and the armored version so that neither is shafted.

3) First of all, infinite stuns is ridiculous and you know this. And I never "settled" for anything. I corrected what was an oversight in the first place. Second of all, you have to build up the scratch. If your opponent can't kill you in ten rounds or less, then by all means, it should already be dead anyway. The class is balanced against tiers 1 and 2 (at WORST high tier 3). It's not meant to be balanced against regular beatsticks.

4) The Warblade needs Dex? Where? Plus, maneuvers. Even with relatively low stats, the Warblade can be reasonably effective. Not GOOD, but reasonably effective. Conversely, the Paladin will suck if any of those four stats are low.

5) This is ONE out of three styles. Kindly notice that while it has incredible offense, it has no defensive capabilities and no way to attack at range. He won't be getting four attacks per turn until level 15, by the way, and that's IF he gets a full attack on. At a DC of, say... around 26, MAYBE 28 if he invested in it. Does it seem like a decent melee monster is going to fail all of those?

I think the issue is because you basically made it so theres no real reason to ever go for a Str based samurai over a Dex or Con based one. And the archetype does contain those two types of samurai in abundance.

EDIT: Also giving it straight out "win fight" abilities doesn't really make it a superior class.
It's got a couple of additional options that help though.

No reason not to go the other way, either. I suppose I could make it so he uses the highest of his physical ability mods to determine damage/hit. But one of them just doesn't... match. How do you hit with Con? You flex your health at the enemy?

[oslecamo]

2) No. Armored samurai also exist. I've given benefits both for the light/unarmored and the armored version so that neither is shafted.

Strong samurais are also suposed to exist, but Battle Grace makes Str completely obsolete. And DR+ignoring hard terrain is hardly a worthy benefit compared with the extra speed+miss chance.

3) First of all, infinite stuns is ridiculous and you know this. And I never "settled" for anything. I corrected what was an oversight in the first place. Second of all, you have to build up the scratch. If your opponent can't kill you in ten rounds or less, then by all means, it should already be dead anyway. The class is balanced against tiers 1 and 2 (at WORST high tier 3). It's not meant to be balanced against regular beatsticks.

Your samurai can't even fly. Even tome of battle classes can fly. Even paladins can get flying mounts (or make their mounts grow wings). You still have a long way to go if you want to "balance" it against tier 2. And you cannot possibly match it against tier 1 unless you write a hundred pages worth of abilities, because in case you forgot the true power behind wizard, cleric, druid, artificer and archvist it's their insane versatility. Sorcerors and psions can blow up the world just as well. The top ones simply can select from multiple ways of blowing up the world in a single build.

4) The Warblade needs Dex? Where?

It doesn't have heavy armor proficiency, so it will want a decent Dex for AC, reflex saves, iniative, tumble, the usual.

Plus, maneuvers. Even with relatively low stats, the Warblade can be reasonably effective. Not GOOD, but reasonably effective. Conversely, the Paladin will suck if any of those four stats are low.

Then perhaps you shouldn't make your samurai so ability-dependant? After all one of the caster's key strenghts is having plenty of spells that don't care about their stats at all.

5) This is ONE out of three styles. Kindly notice that while it has incredible offense, it has no defensive capabilities and no way to attack at range. He won't be getting four attacks per turn until level 15, by the way, and that's IF he gets a full attack on. At a DC of, say... around 26, MAYBE 28 if he invested in it. Does it seem like a decent melee monster is going to fail all of those?

I stand corrected, but then you'll have to elucidate me how exactly is a ground warrior whitout range and hardly any defense be able to keep up with the sorceror droping nukes from the skies? Even a paladin could at least rise to meet the challenge.

[Kuroimaken]

2) So make them with a high STR instead. What's keeping you?

Extra speed/ignoring hard terrain = movement-related.
Miss chance/DR = Mitigating damage (by avoiding it altogether or making it hurt less).

That was the base for those two features.

3) I'm actually thinking on how to solve the flying problem. Seigan specifically will have the ability to attack at a range, but that's not enough, I suppose.

Any suggestions? You know, as opposed to keeping it strictly critical.

4) And why does he care for AC, reflex saves and tumble?

AC: He has access to the Stone Dragon discipline. Ergo, DR, which is strictly better.
Reflex saves: Access to Diamond Mind counters, that's all.
Tumble: You must be joking.

Initiative is good for everyone, but there are simple ways of boosting it - eager/warning ammo, for example.

5) No, that's what makes the casters BROKEN. At the end of the day, as long as he is NOT a complete retard, a Wizard can bend reality and forget about the world even if he's normally a 50-pound anorexic rat. I want the stats to matter for something. Why do you think I changed Focusing Solution the way I did?

6) Magic items are still available. Additionally, there is at least one weapon enchantment that makes you able to fly. Your weapon gets enhancements for free. Do the math.

[veekie]

No reason not to go the other way, either. I suppose I could make it so he uses the highest of his physical ability mods to determine damage/hit. But one of them just doesn't... match. How do you hit with Con? You flex your health at the enemy?

Different abilities with different key abilities?
E.g.
Str/Con goes for AoE/massive damage type abilities and endurance abilities.
Dex/Wis goes for speed, multiple hits, debilitating conditions,etc