Author Topic: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?  (Read 99192 times)

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X-Codes

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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #460 on: February 04, 2011, 01:09:24 AM »
Actually, 13. You took PTWF at 10.

Oh god, don't start with that particular bit of wrongheaded out of context nonsense.  And pulling that one out after accusing me of being overly TO in this very thread for suggesting you purchase a domesticated creature to ride on?  Really?  Not too classy.
By Sunic's standards it was.  He didn't say that you took Epic Spellcasting at 10.

veekie

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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #461 on: February 04, 2011, 03:17:01 AM »
Use this in conjunction?

Specifically this bit(theres questionable rules on the same page, but the essence of the idea seems solid)
[spoiler]
Defending Against Critical Hits

Instead of the black and white situation whereby creatures or objects are immune to critical hits, I propose a method that removes the immunity altogether and introduces new creature (or object) sub-types based on the various states of matter.
Critical Hit Sub-types: Table Two
Code: [Select]
Sub-Type    | Definition            | Example             | Crit Multiplier* |
Fragile     | Crystallized          | Animated glass?     | +2               |
            | Hollow                | Animated Armor?     | +2               |
            | Two dimensional**     | Shadow?             | +2               |
Mechanism   | Inner working parts   | Human, Inevitable   | +0               |
            |       | Clockwork constructs|                  |
Solid       | No inner working parts| Iron golem, zombies | -2               |
            |                       | Earth elementals    |                  |
Liquid      | Fluid based           | Oozes               | -4               |
Gaseous     | Gas based             | Air elemental       | -6               |
Incandescent| Plasma/energy based   | Fire elemental      | -8               |
            | Incorporeal           | Ghosts, living spell|                  |
* = Min 1
**= 2 dimensional creatures/objects are only fragile against slashing attacks
*Minimum 1
**Two-dimensional creatures/objects are considered fragile when struck by Slashing/Piercing weapons, not crushing weapons.

eg. A stone golem (solid sub-type) hit by a pick-axe (20/x4) would suffer x2 damage (4 - 2 = 2) upon a critical hit.

eg. A zombie (solid sub-type) hit by a vorpal longsword (19/x2, 20/x7) would suffer x5 damage (7 - 2 = 5) upon being decapitated.

eg. A wraith (incandescent/incorporeal sub-type) hit by an opening, shredding scythe wielded by a deity with both the obliterating critical divine ability and the superior critical divine ability (16/x16) would suffer x8 damage (16 - 8) upon a critical hit.

Revised Armour/Shield Special Ability

Fortification: This property produces a magical force that protects vital areas of the wearer more effectively, decreasing a weapons critical hit multiplier.
Strong Abjuration; CL: 13th (Light-Heavy), 21st (Liquid), 27th (Gaseous) and 33rd (Incandescent); Prerequisites: Craft Magic Arms and Armor (Light-Heavy), Craft Epic Arms and Armor (Liquid-Incandescent), limited wish or miracle; Market Price: See Table Two.
Revised Fortification Armour/Shield Special Ability: Table Two
Fortification Type
   
Critical Multiplier
   
Base Price Modifier
Light
   
25% chance of -2
   
+1
Moderate
   
75% chance of -2
   
+3
Heavy (Solid)
   
100% chance of -2
   
+5
Liquid
   
100% chance of -4
   
+7
Gaseous
   
100% chance of -6
   
+9
Incandescent
   
100% chance of -8
   
+11

Sneak Attack versus Critical Hit Sub-types

A successful sneak attack should have its effect reduced (or increased in the case of fragile creatures) by 2 dice for every point the targets critical multiplier would be reduced.

eg. A 20th-level Rogue would only deal 6d6 damage (instead of 10d6) upon scoring a sneak attack upon a ghoul (solid sub-type).
[/spoiler]
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[/spoiler]

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zugschef

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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #462 on: February 04, 2011, 06:48:41 AM »
Use this in conjunction?
the problem with these articles is the attempt to include physics in dnd. next you start to divide the body into zones, give every armor a certain type of DR for every zone, make rules for hitting these zones and ways to dodge, parry, or block hits, etc.
in short: you start playing GURPS.

wotmaniac

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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #463 on: February 04, 2011, 10:32:56 AM »
in short: you start playing GURPS.
... or Rolemaster (or, as I call it, Roll Master .... 'cause you spend all night rolling dice just resolve 1 single mechanic)

[spoiler]
If you stop ignoring 289 pages telling what the intent is to stretch "more power" in your own god complexion of your interpretation trumps all to cover ability adjustments from aging then I will ignore a quarter page of rules that exist within a sidebar.
I think in this case the grammar is less important than whether the Str and Dex bonus provided to your created undead scales.

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More Savage Progressions[/spoiler]
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BrokeAndDrive

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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #464 on: February 04, 2011, 10:53:32 AM »
in short: you start playing GURPS.
... or Rolemaster (or, as I call it, Roll Master .... 'cause you spend all night rolling dice just resolve 1 single mechanic)
I know exactly what you mean. :scared Never again.
Random quotes:[spoiler]I think Roy's coinages are shitty and dumb, but Failroy has to take the cake for the dumbest new compound word of the year
~

That was kind of the point. I was trying to be a Roy parody, but I guess it didn't come across overly well.

==

JaronK is of course most famous for his massive thought experiments into placing classes into tiers. While a kind of nifty idea, and a decent enough way to think about stuff, his particular tier assignments were basically insane. Apparently the criteria he used was to assign classes relative strength based on what bullshit he personally would let them get away with at 20th level.

So Factotums were rated very highly, because apparently he would let them use Rokugan-exclusive skills with Forgotten Realms-exclusive weapons from the back of MM2 templated warbeasts. But Rogues suck donkey dick, becuase he wouldn't let them use Use Magic Device to read scrolls of Planar Binding. It was a very surreal argument.
~

And to think the system was immortalized in OOTS. As a general rule, I try to avoid all tier discussion there because it's the De Facto system at BG, and I'm not going to change anyone's mind.

Besides, I think if most people are pressed, they will admit that it's just an estimate, anyway, and that results can vary from table to table.
~

My only real complaint with the tier system is that at one point I was tired (tiered?) of hearing about it.[/spoiler]

Sunic_Flames

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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #465 on: February 04, 2011, 11:17:35 AM »
Obligatory Hi Welcome to Jaron.

And why is this thread even still going on? The question has already been answered many times.
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[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

GawainBS

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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #466 on: February 04, 2011, 12:22:21 PM »
Can anyone please explain me the much vaunted brilliance of "Hi Welcome"? Sure, I read the original thread, but the mind boggling orginality and revolutionary advancement it brought to CO has eluded me so far. It's getting almost as annoying as Hood, but Endarire has the decency to be tongue-in-cheeck about it.  :rollseyes

BrokeAndDrive

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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #467 on: February 04, 2011, 12:30:32 PM »
Can anyone please explain me the much vaunted brilliance of "Hi Welcome"? Sure, I read the original thread, but the mind boggling orginality and revolutionary advancement it brought to CO has eluded me so far. It's getting almost as annoying as Hood, but Endarire has the decency to be tongue-in-cheeck about it. :rollseyes
It's useful when one doesn't have an actual counterargument, but is too proud to concede and back down.
Random quotes:[spoiler]I think Roy's coinages are shitty and dumb, but Failroy has to take the cake for the dumbest new compound word of the year
~

That was kind of the point. I was trying to be a Roy parody, but I guess it didn't come across overly well.

==

JaronK is of course most famous for his massive thought experiments into placing classes into tiers. While a kind of nifty idea, and a decent enough way to think about stuff, his particular tier assignments were basically insane. Apparently the criteria he used was to assign classes relative strength based on what bullshit he personally would let them get away with at 20th level.

So Factotums were rated very highly, because apparently he would let them use Rokugan-exclusive skills with Forgotten Realms-exclusive weapons from the back of MM2 templated warbeasts. But Rogues suck donkey dick, becuase he wouldn't let them use Use Magic Device to read scrolls of Planar Binding. It was a very surreal argument.
~

And to think the system was immortalized in OOTS. As a general rule, I try to avoid all tier discussion there because it's the De Facto system at BG, and I'm not going to change anyone's mind.

Besides, I think if most people are pressed, they will admit that it's just an estimate, anyway, and that results can vary from table to table.
~

My only real complaint with the tier system is that at one point I was tired (tiered?) of hearing about it.[/spoiler]

wotmaniac

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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #468 on: February 04, 2011, 12:41:39 PM »
And why is this thread even still going on? The question has already been answered many times.
the conversation has evolved?  :shrug

[spoiler]
If you stop ignoring 289 pages telling what the intent is to stretch "more power" in your own god complexion of your interpretation trumps all to cover ability adjustments from aging then I will ignore a quarter page of rules that exist within a sidebar.
I think in this case the grammar is less important than whether the Str and Dex bonus provided to your created undead scales.

Greenbound Summoning RAI
Expanded Gestalt
More Savage Progressions[/spoiler]
Report any wrongs I have done here.

Sunic_Flames

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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #469 on: February 04, 2011, 12:52:39 PM »
Can anyone please explain me the much vaunted brilliance of "Hi Welcome"? Sure, I read the original thread, but the mind boggling orginality and revolutionary advancement it brought to CO has eluded me so far. It's getting almost as annoying as Hood, but Endarire has the decency to be tongue-in-cheeck about it.  :rollseyes

Depends on context. In this case it means that the person in question is a noob, whose points are unworthy of address or intelligent rebuttal, and as such they are answered with a response that obviously has no effort put into it (which is why the poor grammar is intentional).

Also, BAD is a troll who shows up, whines and flails about something in an obviously disproportionate way, and then leaves when people respond. And before any MBFs counter with the trite response that I am a troll as well, the comparison still falls flat, as I administer appropriate response and do stick around for responses. Also, not all of my posts involve flaming idiots, whereas the same is not true of him.
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If you hear this music, run.

And don't forget:


There is no greater contribution than Hi Welcome.

Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.

IP proofing and avoiding being CAPed OR - how to make characters relevant in the long term.

Friends don't let friends be Short Bus Hobos.

[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

Triskavanski

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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #470 on: February 04, 2011, 12:57:23 PM »
The point of heavy armor is to jump on people ala-mario style.

veekie

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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #471 on: February 04, 2011, 03:02:43 PM »
Use this in conjunction?
the problem with these articles is the attempt to include physics in dnd. next you start to divide the body into zones, give every armor a certain type of DR for every zone, make rules for hitting these zones and ways to dodge, parry, or block hits, etc.
in short: you start playing GURPS.
Hence the disclaimer to ignore everything but the specific critical variant rule in play. :P
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."

JaronK

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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #472 on: February 04, 2011, 04:41:19 PM »
Depends on context. In this case it means that the person in question is a noob, whose points are unworthy of address or intelligent rebuttal, and as such they are answered with a response that obviously has no effort put into it (which is why the poor grammar is intentional).

Also, BAD is a troll who shows up, whines and flails about something in an obviously disproportionate way, and then leaves when people respond. And before any MBFs counter with the trite response that I am a troll as well, the comparison still falls flat, as I administer appropriate response and do stick around for responses. Also, not all of my posts involve flaming idiots, whereas the same is not true of him.

Except you use it as a "well I just got owned" statement, which is the same way you use pictures.  No one's fooled.  In this case, you just got shown for a complete fool with that stupid "take PTWF at level 10" statement after claiming I was known for being TO when I suggested a fantasy character should ride whatever mount might be available in a campaign.  Then you tried to claim there were a bunch of ways to get around heavy fortification besides the half sneak attack ACF... and couldn't name any.

Seriously, what have you contributed to this thread at all?  Right now it's just "People have ideas about balance, Sunic makes a claim, Sunic gets proved completely wrong, Sunic says "Hi Welcome" or posts a picture, everyone else comes up with interesting house rules and solutions to balance issues, Sunic asks why anyone's in this thread at all, repeat."  Be productive or get out.  It's old, and nobody's amused right now.  Here, I'll give you a funny picture now so you don't have to look far to find a funny picture to post and get the last word, you can just copy my work and claim it as your own:



There, now do your final "Hi Welcome" or picture and be done.

JaronK

Sunic_Flames

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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #473 on: February 04, 2011, 04:48:54 PM »
ITT: Skip Smokes Crack, and Shares Some With Jaron.

Lay off the delusions there buddy. Take a few deep breaths. Then check into rehab before it's too late.

Not going to detail exactly why you are wrong about PTWF, it's old news. Suffice it to say you are wrong. And PTWF fails so hard it wouldn't be broken as a level 1 feat with no prereqs. I know, I've done it. That of course is a houserule, but PTWF at Rogue 10 is not.
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If you hear this music, run.

And don't forget:


There is no greater contribution than Hi Welcome.

Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.

IP proofing and avoiding being CAPed OR - how to make characters relevant in the long term.

Friends don't let friends be Short Bus Hobos.

[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

JaronK

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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #474 on: February 04, 2011, 06:31:36 PM »
Not going to detail exactly why you are wrong about PTWF, it's old news. Suffice it to say you are wrong. And PTWF fails so hard it wouldn't be broken as a level 1 feat with no prereqs. I know, I've done it. That of course is a houserule, but PTWF at Rogue 10 is not.

Yeah, I know the logic.  You look in the sections on reading monster entries and making your own monsters and find references to bonus feats, and assume it means all bonus feats and not just racial bonus feats (i.e. the ones you find in monster entries).  Then you look at the PHB where they specifically mention class bonus feats and the fact that they require prerequisites in the section on feats and ignore that, because you think the primary source on both classes and feats should be overruled by the book that's not the primary source for either in a section that doesn't even apply to classes at all.  Believe me, I know, I've seen it.  It's both wrong and TO.  And you're not going into detail, because either you don't know the details or, if you do know them, you know they're wrong.  Now can we get back to discussing what would make heavier armors more useful, preferably without screwing Rogues?  And would you like to contribute something actually useful or move on?

JaronK

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Sunic_Flames

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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #476 on: February 04, 2011, 07:07:29 PM »
Weapon Focus War Domain. Your argument is invalid.
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If you hear this music, run.

And don't forget:


There is no greater contribution than Hi Welcome.

Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.

IP proofing and avoiding being CAPed OR - how to make characters relevant in the long term.

Friends don't let friends be Short Bus Hobos.

[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #477 on: February 04, 2011, 07:35:10 PM »
Weapon Focus War Domain. Your argument is invalid.
Yeah, but you aren't "selecting" the feat.
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JaronK

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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #478 on: February 04, 2011, 08:54:24 PM »
Weapon Focus War Domain. Your argument is invalid.

It says "Select or use."  You didn't select it, now did you?  But yes, technically War Domain Clerics can't use Weapon Focus at level 1... but they still get the feat, and can start using it at level 2.  Silly, but there it is.  Furthermore, you of all people should know that a class assuming a rule says something it doesn't doesn't invalidate the general rule completely.   What are you going to say next, that everyone gets proficiency in unarmed strikes automatically because the Monk class assumes so, or that Mage Armor is Abjuration because the Abjurant Champion class assumes so?  

There is NO general rule that states class bonus feats ignore prerequisites.  There IS a general rule that says feats require prerequisites.  That rule IS mentioned directly after a paragraph that states it's talking about class bonus feats (in addition to level gained bonus feats, but note that racial bonus feats are not mentioned).  And it IS found in the book that's both the primary source for feats and classes.  And the only areas that talk about bonus feats ignoring prerequisites are only talking about racial abilities (because they're in sections on making your own monsters and reading monster entries).  What are you claiming next, that the section doesn't matter and context doesn't matter? Perhaps you should try to argue that you always get a free +30 to bluff checks to convince people of stuff because page 236 of the PHB states "You gain a +30 bonus on Bluff checks made to convince another of the truth of your words."?

Racial bonus feats ignore prerequisites.  Class bonus feats do not.

JaronK

Sunic_Flames

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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #479 on: February 04, 2011, 08:56:35 PM »
Jesusfacepalm.gif
Smiting Imbeciles since 1985.

If you hear this music, run.

And don't forget:


There is no greater contribution than Hi Welcome.

Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.

IP proofing and avoiding being CAPed OR - how to make characters relevant in the long term.

Friends don't let friends be Short Bus Hobos.

[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]