Author Topic: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?  (Read 101476 times)

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lans

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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #400 on: January 31, 2011, 08:48:30 PM »
Counter point: The archers are such a threat, that the wizard has forgone the extra study in another school, to be able to cast an  Evocation spell

Slight counterpoint: Evocation has Wall of Force & Contingency.
Wall of Force isn't that good, and Contingency only matters for levels 11-14, when G.Shadow Evocation comes online
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wotmaniac

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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #401 on: January 31, 2011, 10:34:04 PM »
Hooray, Sunic has designed a turtle that is only effective against archers?
... and doesn't protect from over-head.  :lmao

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Bauglir

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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #402 on: January 31, 2011, 10:39:18 PM »
Hooray, Sunic has designed a turtle that is only effective against archers?
... and doesn't protect from over-head.  :lmao

Hey, now, let's be fair. Some campaigns do have all their combat in indoor corridors. After all, how else would the Dwarven Defender have got published?
So you end up stuck in an endless loop, unable to act, forever.

In retrospect, much like Keanu Reeves.

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #403 on: January 31, 2011, 10:43:17 PM »
Hooray, Sunic has designed a turtle that is only effective against archers?
... and doesn't protect from over-head.  :lmao

Hey, now, let's be fair. Some campaigns do have all their combat in indoor corridors. After all, how else would the Dwarven Defender have got published?
The dwarven defender exists to defend the dwarves in their mountainhomes from elephants.  While fulfilling his duties, he gains the ability to enter martial trances and endure a sickening amount of injury and fire.
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Bauglir

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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #404 on: January 31, 2011, 10:46:09 PM »
Hooray, Sunic has designed a turtle that is only effective against archers?
... and doesn't protect from over-head.  :lmao

Hey, now, let's be fair. Some campaigns do have all their combat in indoor corridors. After all, how else would the Dwarven Defender have got published?
The dwarven defender exists to defend the dwarves in their mountainhomes from elephants.  While fulfilling his duties, he gains the ability to enter martial trances and endure a sickening amount of injury and fire.
I thought that required the Follower of HolisticDetective ACF?
So you end up stuck in an endless loop, unable to act, forever.

In retrospect, much like Keanu Reeves.

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #405 on: January 31, 2011, 10:54:31 PM »
Nah, that's a dwarf with gravetouched ghoul applied.
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veekie

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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #406 on: February 01, 2011, 01:22:17 AM »
Hooray, Sunic has designed a turtle that is only effective against archers?
... and doesn't protect from over-head.  :lmao

Hey, now, let's be fair. Some campaigns do have all their combat in indoor corridors. After all, how else would the Dwarven Defender have got published?
The dwarven defender exists to defend the dwarves in their mountainhomes from elephants.  While fulfilling his duties, he gains the ability to enter martial trances and endure a sickening amount of injury and fire.
And the class does work, sorta, in 10x10ft corridors with no longer than 10ft in a straight line!
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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #407 on: February 01, 2011, 02:26:26 AM »
When trying to hold a Dwarven Fortress, I see a Dwarven Defender being a great class choice.  The PrC does excel at holding chokepoints, but that's all it does well.  Truthfully, I think this was a PrC that was designed well, at least in the respect that it does exactly what it was supposed to do.  The failing is that that one job rarely comes up in an actual game.
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JaronK

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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #408 on: February 01, 2011, 03:44:55 AM »
Hooray, Sunic has designed a turtle that is only effective against archers?

Holy crap, yeah, he did.  His proof that Fighter archers suck is that Wizards evidently need to get melee monstrosities to protect themselves and turtle up in case a Fighter with a bow might show up.  Also, they can't ban evocation.  Awesome!  Truly, Halfling Fighters riding bats make Wizards into Dwarven Defenders simply by their existence.  And this whole time I would have just cast Glitterdust (but that isn't specific to archers).

And Sunic, I was saying you could get some mount from somewhere.  MMII is my favorite simply because I like the idea of riding a bat.  A&EG, Races of Stone, Drow of the Underdark, Draconomicon, Races of the Wild, Eberron Campaign Setting, and a wide variety of other books all mention various possible mount creatures, many of which can fly or burrow or climb or swim (depending on your campaign, any of those might be very nice).  You certainly don't have to use the Warbeast rules if you don't want to (though I find those rules work just fine so long as you stick to domesticated creatures, which is clearly what the template was created for.  It only breaks when you pick really big animals).  Feats can do it, class features can do it, or buying it via rules in other books for specific creatures can do it... whatever you like, really.

And accusing me of being TO because I suggested using the template as it's meant to be used, and then turning around and getting a T-Rex with it... fail dude.  Seriously fail.  Saying that someone should get whatever sort of mount can travel with them and is available within their campaign is pretty much stock standard practical optimization.

JaronK
« Last Edit: February 01, 2011, 07:03:49 AM by JaronK »

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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #409 on: February 01, 2011, 03:46:48 AM »
When trying to hold a Dwarven Fortress, I see a Dwarven Defender being a great class choice.  The PrC does excel at holding chokepoints, but that's all it does well.  Truthfully, I think this was a PrC that was designed well, at least in the respect that it does exactly what it was supposed to do.  The failing is that that one job rarely comes up in an actual game.
Not with a PC doing it, in any case.
Hooray, Sunic has designed a turtle that is only effective against archers?
... and doesn't protect from over-head.  :lmao

Hey, now, let's be fair. Some campaigns do have all their combat in indoor corridors. After all, how else would the Dwarven Defender have got published?
The dwarven defender exists to defend the dwarves in their mountainhomes from elephants.  While fulfilling his duties, he gains the ability to enter martial trances and endure a sickening amount of injury and fire.
And the class does work, sorta, in 10x10ft corridors with no longer than 10ft in a straight line!
With Enlarge Person, a reach weapon, and the ability to smack adjacent, a Dwarven Defender can actually cover a 50'x50' area pretty effectively, including a vertical area of 25'.  That said, such a shtick is more for Dwarven Fortresses than anything else.

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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #410 on: February 01, 2011, 03:56:11 AM »
I suppose you could make a DD thrower...

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X-Codes

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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #411 on: February 01, 2011, 03:57:48 AM »
I suppose you could make a DD thrower...
Ooh, Harpoons!  Use your strength to spear them, drag them to you, and beat the everloving hell out of them now that they can't walk briskly away.

veekie

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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #412 on: February 01, 2011, 06:05:39 AM »
When trying to hold a Dwarven Fortress, I see a Dwarven Defender being a great class choice.  The PrC does excel at holding chokepoints, but that's all it does well.  Truthfully, I think this was a PrC that was designed well, at least in the respect that it does exactly what it was supposed to do.  The failing is that that one job rarely comes up in an actual game.
Not with a PC doing it, in any case.
Hooray, Sunic has designed a turtle that is only effective against archers?
... and doesn't protect from over-head.  :lmao

Hey, now, let's be fair. Some campaigns do have all their combat in indoor corridors. After all, how else would the Dwarven Defender have got published?
The dwarven defender exists to defend the dwarves in their mountainhomes from elephants.  While fulfilling his duties, he gains the ability to enter martial trances and endure a sickening amount of injury and fire.
And the class does work, sorta, in 10x10ft corridors with no longer than 10ft in a straight line!
With Enlarge Person, a reach weapon, and the ability to smack adjacent, a Dwarven Defender can actually cover a 50'x50' area pretty effectively, including a vertical area of 25'.  That said, such a shtick is more for Dwarven Fortresses than anything else.
Lets see, a polearm and fully spiky plate w/ gauntlets?
So buffed DDs cover the rooms, unbuffed ones cover the smaller tunnels.
Stack them in a 3x3 formation for maximum coverage.
That is, with a caster and a couple of Magic Circle/area buffs standing in the center.
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It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

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I can barely read mine.

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Sunic_Flames

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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #413 on: February 01, 2011, 10:37:09 AM »
So, are you idiots done failing about the fucked up mount rules yet?
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JaronK

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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #414 on: February 01, 2011, 08:03:05 PM »
So, are you idiots done failing about the fucked up mount rules yet?

You're the only one who's failed there, by claiming that since it's possible to buy an overpowered mount with one set of mount rules, that means that no mounts are allowable.  This is EXACTLY like claiming that since it's possible to buy game breaking magic items (like the Candle of Invocation) no one can buy magic items.  After all, you could take any build and say "look, it would be stronger if you just spend your wealth on Candles of Invocation and then got wishes."  

And then you failed REALLY hard by making a turtle Wizard who has to sit on a T-Rex and hide behind a wind wall if an archer shows up as proof that Fighter archers suck.  Really?  Your proof is that a Wizard could be protected by a big beat stick and could hide?

Face it, your criticisms of Fighter Archers are completely without factual basis at all.  They do significant damage.  They have noticeable advantages over most other archers, especially at lower levels.  They've got their flaws (lack of Spot for long range shooting is obvious) but claiming they don't do significant damage or that Wind Wall trumps them is just flat out wrong, and their advantages (which includes ability to use mounts... skirmish based archers can't do that for obvious reasons.  Lack of reliance on precision damage is also quite nice as it lets them hurt more things easier and do so from more ranges.  The available mobility is amazing) are actually useful for most games.  Cleric archers don't really get good until they can start making use of Divine Power and similar spells (at which point of course they end up surpassing the Fighters), while Warblade archers take even longer to get up to speed.  Skirmish based archers have to stay quite close to the enemy and in many ways are actually less versatile, plus they can't full move and full attack like a mounted archer can.

And you still don't seem to realize that there are other mount rules in other books, including costs and who sells them.

JaronK
« Last Edit: February 01, 2011, 08:05:29 PM by JaronK »

skydragonknight

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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #415 on: February 01, 2011, 10:43:02 PM »
Psychic Warrior archers are better. >_>
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wotmaniac

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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #416 on: February 01, 2011, 11:51:16 PM »
They have noticeable advantages over most other archers, especially at lower levels.
Ride -- the other useful fighter skill.

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I think in this case the grammar is less important than whether the Str and Dex bonus provided to your created undead scales.

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JaronK

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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #417 on: February 01, 2011, 11:53:27 PM »
Ride -- the other useful fighter skill.

Along with Intimidate, I'd guess is what you're going for?

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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #418 on: February 02, 2011, 12:05:05 AM »
Ride -- the other useful fighter skill.

Along with Intimidate, I'd guess is what you're going for?

JaronK

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[spoiler]
If you stop ignoring 289 pages telling what the intent is to stretch "more power" in your own god complexion of your interpretation trumps all to cover ability adjustments from aging then I will ignore a quarter page of rules that exist within a sidebar.
I think in this case the grammar is less important than whether the Str and Dex bonus provided to your created undead scales.

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Expanded Gestalt
More Savage Progressions[/spoiler]
Report any wrongs I have done here.

Bloody Initiate

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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #419 on: February 02, 2011, 12:27:43 AM »
They've got their flaws (lack of Spot for long range shooting is obvious)

Too bad the Guerilla Scout feat in Heroes of Battle isn't any better, otherwise this would be easily overcome.
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