Author Topic: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?  (Read 101475 times)

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X-Codes

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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #380 on: January 30, 2011, 08:54:56 PM »
Well, if the Ranger is a Swift Hunter, I guess the Fighter loses there too. The rest is more lies and fail though MBF, so that in no way helps you to make your point. Quite the opposite.

There's also the classic Jaron response. So how is this Fighter 5 (lol Fighter 5, as if that's ever scary, and also lol at picking the minimum level) getting a hunting bat from the Book of Random Numbers? I already know what you will say to this, and I already have an lol counter ready for it. So by all means, say it. I dare you.
Is your lol counter as effective as my pre-emptive retort to this entire post?

Your problem, Sunic, is that you assume that everyone else is an idiot.  There's not only a rational response to all the bullshit you spew, there's a pretty damn good one.

Kajhera

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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #381 on: January 30, 2011, 08:55:38 PM »
Well, if the Ranger is a Swift Hunter, I guess the Fighter loses there too. The rest is more lies and fail though MBF, so that in no way helps you to make your point. Quite the opposite.

There's also the classic Jaron response. So how is this Fighter 5 (lol Fighter 5, as if that's ever scary, and also lol at picking the minimum level) getting a hunting bat from the Book of Random Numbers? I already know what you will say to this, and I already have an lol counter ready for it. So by all means, say it. I dare you.

...Warbeast?

lans

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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #382 on: January 30, 2011, 09:04:57 PM »
The same place the Marshal got his Dire Elephant
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JaronK

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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #383 on: January 31, 2011, 12:56:47 AM »
There's also the classic Jaron response. So how is this Fighter 5 (lol Fighter 5, as if that's ever scary, and also lol at picking the minimum level)

As opposed to Fighter 6, which is actually a lot stronger.  Would you have preferred that?  Do you really think I picked Fighter 5 because it's the super powered level for Fighters or something?  Nothing says overpowered like an odd numbered Fighter...

Quote
getting a hunting bat from the Book of Random Numbers? I already know what you will say to this, and I already have an lol counter ready for it. So by all means, say it. I dare you.

Well, the obvious response is "buy the thing, they're raised domestically.  See their entry.  Price can be found in the warbeast entry of the same book."  It'll run you a few hundred gp.   If you don't want (or can't get) a Hunting Bat, get something else, I don't care (something with a climb speed like those lizards in Drow of the Underdark if they're more appropriate to the campaign).  The point is to get whatever nice mobile mount you can get (preferably a medium mount with a small guy on the back, so it can really go everywhere).  We're talking about something that costs under a thousand gp here.

So what's so funny about buying a creature to ride on?  In pretty much every campaign there's going to be SOMETHING you can ride on that's capable of actually going where ever you're going.  The Hunting Bat is just the one I happen to like because it's cheap, domesticated, can fly, can trip things, and helps detect enemies easier.  If you can't find at least 10 other viable options, you're just not trying hard at all.  At higher levels buy something better that can take a hit or three.    Maybe even take the Dragon Cohort feat and ride around on a little Mercury Dragon for speed.  Whatever you chose, getting a mount for an archery Fighter is just common sense.  Doesn't work for skirmish based characters obviously, but you're not one so who cares?

JaronK
« Last Edit: January 31, 2011, 01:02:12 AM by JaronK »

Sunic_Flames

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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #384 on: January 31, 2011, 11:20:04 AM »
You've just activated my trap card!

The Wind Wall guy has a Magebred T-Rex for a fraction of his WBL. It eats you and your bat.

And this is why MM2 in general, and Warbeast and the mount rules in particular are complete and utter Epic Failures.
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Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

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Kajhera

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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #385 on: January 31, 2011, 01:35:01 PM »
You've just activated my trap card!

The Wind Wall guy has a Magebred T-Rex for a fraction of his WBL. It eats you and your bat.

And this is why MM2 in general, and Warbeast and the mount rules in particular are complete and utter Epic Failures.

Yay, I was wondering what the response would be! For like a while. You go off somewhere?

Also you're going to have to make it a Warbeast T-Rex first anyway, since I'm pretty sure there aren't pricing rules on a normal T-Rex...

(warning: daydreaming tangent ahead)

So it's going to cost our good mage friend 2900gp.  :) Pretty cheap indeed, though the food costs add up I'm sure. The last time we tamed a T-Rex we had a heck of a time figuring out what to do with it, same with our latest hydra.

Yea, buying something 3 CRs more ... CR-ish than you is kinda weird. But we'll go with it for now.

But anyway, our mage friend is going to have around 2 3rd level spells prepared at this point. One of them's apparently wind wall, the other's apparently fly, because I can't imagine what *other* way a T-Rex would be useful here...

Do we have any good 2nd-level buffs on yet? Probably mage armor from first because why not.

And so our mage, if properly prepared and having a t-rex, spent his 2 3rd-level spells and probably 2 rounds overcoming this archer, assuming he likes those spells enough to prepare them. They're not an exceptionally bad choice. Alternately he could have spent some of his WBL on scrolls or such...

Probably has to leave the shelter of the wind wall to eat the guy.

Also if you just follow this strategy he does manage to shoot at you somewhat. That's problematic. Judicious application of 2nd-level spells may mitigate this, but increase the time it takes to deal with him.

I've had less effective party members than that archer.  :lmao

(/end random tangent)
« Last Edit: January 31, 2011, 01:54:34 PM by Kajhera »

Sunic_Flames

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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #386 on: January 31, 2011, 03:46:03 PM »
...Huh?

The point is:

If those rules are in, archer flies inside wind wall, probably doesn't get to attack but doesn't one round if he does.

Magebred Warbeast T-Rex eats him. Actually Magebred isn't necessary, I just confused Magebred with Warbeast.

The point of course is that being able to buy something better than you will ever be for a trivial cost is completely fucking stupid. Therefore, those rules will not be in. No bat for you.

Jaron has a tendency to assume borderline TO stuff in common play. Notorious for it even.
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[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #387 on: January 31, 2011, 03:48:07 PM »
I would have suggested wild cohort for a dire bat myself.  
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Kajhera

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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #388 on: January 31, 2011, 04:35:45 PM »
...Huh?

The point is:

If those rules are in, archer flies inside wind wall, probably doesn't get to attack but doesn't one round if he does.

Magebred Warbeast T-Rex eats him. Actually Magebred isn't necessary, I just confused Magebred with Warbeast.

The point of course is that being able to buy something better than you will ever be for a trivial cost is completely fucking stupid. Therefore, those rules will not be in. No bat for you.

Jaron has a tendency to assume borderline TO stuff in common play. Notorious for it even.

No clue, I got 3 hours of sleep.

Why's the archer flying inside the wind wall? Why not over it?

X-Codes

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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #389 on: January 31, 2011, 04:48:19 PM »
...Huh?

The point is:

If those rules are in, archer flies inside wind wall, probably doesn't get to attack but doesn't one round if he does.

Magebred Warbeast T-Rex eats him. Actually Magebred isn't necessary, I just confused Magebred with Warbeast.

The point of course is that being able to buy something better than you will ever be for a trivial cost is completely fucking stupid. Therefore, those rules will not be in. No bat for you.

Jaron has a tendency to assume borderline TO stuff in common play. Notorious for it even.
Honestly, there's a big difference between assuming you can buy a Magebred T-Rex at level 5 and assuming you can buy a Dire Bat (or even a Hunting Bat) at level 5.  If you don't like it, then you can instead consider that a Pegasus becomes affordable at this level, and is likely superior to any of the aforementioned creatures strictly for the purposes of a flying mount (although being small-size and riding something medium-sized is preferable for reasons stated before).

weenog

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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #390 on: January 31, 2011, 04:54:14 PM »
Am I the only one that finds it hilarious that after spending so much time and effort derp raging about big stupid fighters, their tools and their methods, he's relying on a big stupid fighter to protect his brittle ass from an archer after going nova and still failing to kill it?  :lmao
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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #391 on: January 31, 2011, 04:56:46 PM »
Am I the only one that finds it hilarious that after spending so much time and effort derp raging about big stupid fighters, their tools and their methods, he's relying on a big stupid fighter to protect his brittle ass from an archer after going nova and still failing to kill it?  :lmao
Possibly.  He's done it so many times before that it's kinda losing it's humor.

JaronK

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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #392 on: January 31, 2011, 05:40:12 PM »
Sunic, let me get this straight: your awesome response to "buy whatever mount is appropriate to the campaign" is "well he could have bought a T-Rex, even though nothing even says T-Rexes would be available anywhere?"  Really?  First off, the T Rex can't fit most places anyway, so that's usually not a good idea.  Second of all, if the DM actually allows you to buy Warbeast T-Rexes and has space for them, then you would have bought that and not the bat.  Third, YOU went for the TO stuff (Warbeast T-Rex) while I was doing something that actually works in play (buy the best commonly available mount).  Notice how the stuff I mentioned was all domesticated animals that should be purchasable (Hunting Bats are domesticated by the Desmoderu, the various Lizards are domesticated by the Drow, etc).  And fourth, where are you buying this thing?  The Warbeast rules are clearly there for purchasing animals that are actually domesticated purchasable animals anyway.  Unless the DM has actually set up that there's a bunch of Halflings breeding T-Rexes somewhere, you can't just go buy one.  But you could go buy a Quickpad Lizard (Raised by Drow) or a Dire Badger (Raised by Gnomes) or a Hunting Bat (Raised by Desmoderu) or whatever else is actually a commonly available war beast.  Yes, the rules could be abused... but we're not doing that here.

The simple fact is, having an appropriate mount that can go where ever you're going is common sense, and not TO.  Just because there's also a TO method for doing it doesn't change that fact, any more than the fact that Wizards can cast flowing time Genesis doesn't change the fact that they can also cast Glitterdust.  One's overpowered TO stuff, the other's just a damn good idea.  Hey, do you tell people they're also not allowed to ever buy magic items, because they could have bought a Candle of Invocation and thus the rules for buying magic items are too screwed up to be used?

And Warbeast isn't the only place with costs.  Arms and Equipment Guide also has costs for various exotic mounts that are supposed to be available.  I also mentioned the Draconic Cohort feat.  One way or another, you could have a level appropriate domesticated mount... which is not the same as just assuming you can purchase a Warbeast T-Rex at level 5 in any given campaign.

So yes, it's perfectly reasonable to assume that an archer character can have a level appropriate mount with enough mobility to be useful.  And as a result, Wind Wall is not actually a very good counter to them at all, due to its static nature.  I'm sorry Sunic, but you just failed hard here.  Try again.  

JaronK
« Last Edit: January 31, 2011, 05:56:41 PM by JaronK »

Mixster

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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #393 on: January 31, 2011, 05:45:03 PM »
Why did the level 5 windwaller spend his money on a T-rex again? Where did he buy a domesticated T-rex?

If you don't have a flying mount at level 5 as a fighter, getting a flying mount is probably not a bad idea, especially if you are a ranged fighter since then you basically remove all ground-locked non-range threats against you.

And why use a level 3 spell that does nothing but force the fighter closer to you? What if the fighter just walks away till you get out of your windwall? What if he walks around a corner so you can't shoot him and waits a few turns to get you.

Why not instead use something that blinds him? Like a fog spell or the wonderful dual threat Cloud of Bewilderment?

It's not like anyone is arguing that a fighter 5 is easily able to beat a wizard 5, it's just that assuming wind wall will win you that combat is completely silly.
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JaronK

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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #394 on: January 31, 2011, 05:56:13 PM »
Why did the level 5 windwaller spend his money on a T-rex again? Where did he buy a domesticated T-rex?

Sunic doesn't actually know the difference between TO and sensible ideas anymore, so he sees "go puchase a warbeast version of whatever useful domesticated war creatures are available" as equivalent to "the warbeast template lets you purchase any animal in existence ever as a warbeast, so buy a T-Rex."  Me, I would have gotten a War Roc if I were doing it that way, but whatever... I was talking real gameplay, he was talking TO.

Quote
If you don't have a flying mount at level 5 as a fighter, getting a flying mount is probably not a bad idea, especially if you are a ranged fighter since then you basically remove all ground-locked non-range threats against you.

Absolutely, though burrowing mounts can be fun too (Races of Stone on page 161 has a bunch of underground mounts that are supposed to be available, complete with prices, and you can even purchase a saddle designed to let you burrow with the creature) and climbing mounts can be just as good as flying in tight dungeons, if not better.  Mounts are generally cheap enough that it's worth having a couple so you can switch them as needed, assuming you have some ability to do that.

Quote
And why use a level 3 spell that does nothing but force the fighter closer to you? What if the fighter just walks away till you get out of your windwall? What if he walks around a corner so you can't shoot him and waits a few turns to get you.

Why not instead use something that blinds him? Like a fog spell or the wonderful dual threat Cloud of Bewilderment?

It's not like anyone is arguing that a fighter 5 is easily able to beat a wizard 5, it's just that assuming wind wall will win you that combat is completely silly.

Kind of my point, really.  Everyone talks about Windwall as though it's so amazing, but since any half decent archer can just reposition (either by going through it, or around it, or just angling so it's not in the way anymore) it's really a situational spell at best and I wouldn't ever prepare it (maybe keep it as a scroll just in case) unless I was sure I'd have a choke point to work with and had some good reason to lure the archers in (like a horde of animated minions waiting or a team of PCs that wanted them close or whatever).  And it's decent at dealing with ambushes where a bunch of fortified people are lobbing arrows at you.  But as a counter to a reasonably mobile PC type archer?  No way.  Obviously it's not difficult to take out the Fighter with other spells... Glitterdust is an obvious one (another reason I like the bat... it can fly to safety if the two of you get glitterdusted, which at the level you'd have the bat is one of the major casty threats).  But for some reason people like to hold up Wind Wall as proof that archers are screwed, and they're really just not.  Just be mobile enough and it won't bother you ever again.

JaronK
« Last Edit: January 31, 2011, 06:10:27 PM by JaronK »

Sunic_Flames

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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #395 on: January 31, 2011, 06:12:55 PM »
...Huh?

The point is:

If those rules are in, archer flies inside wind wall, probably doesn't get to attack but doesn't one round if he does.

Magebred Warbeast T-Rex eats him. Actually Magebred isn't necessary, I just confused Magebred with Warbeast.

The point of course is that being able to buy something better than you will ever be for a trivial cost is completely fucking stupid. Therefore, those rules will not be in. No bat for you.

Jaron has a tendency to assume borderline TO stuff in common play. Notorious for it even.

No clue, I got 3 hours of sleep.

Why's the archer flying inside the wind wall? Why not over it?

Quote
Effect:    Wall up to 10 ft./level long and 5 ft./level high (S)

So it's 50 feet long and 25 foot high. Which means it looks kind of like this:

Code: [Select]
W W W
W C W
W W W

Suffice it to say the flier would either have to be directly overhead (which requires a good deal of movement, more than I assumed, and much more if he doesn't want to be T-Rex food) or at a high altitude to shoot at such an angle to go over a 25 foot wall to hit something directly behind it. Notably, this also means you aren't getting inside it, though you can stand in it.

And yes, a Magebred Warbeast T-Rex is fucking retarded. But then, so is JaronK for actually suggesting the mount rules from either of those sources be used at all. I simply illustrated the logical conclusion of allowing those rules, and anything else from the MM2 by picking a random high CR animal.
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[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

lans

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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #396 on: January 31, 2011, 06:20:51 PM »
Counter point: The archers are such a threat, that the wizard has forgone the extra study in another school, to be able to cast an  Evocation spell
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GawainBS

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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #397 on: January 31, 2011, 06:37:15 PM »
Counter point: The archers are such a threat, that the wizard has forgone the extra study in another school, to be able to cast an  Evocation spell

Slight counterpoint: Evocation has Wall of Force & Contingency.

bearsarebrown

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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #398 on: January 31, 2011, 06:42:28 PM »
shit
Now you're in a Windwall bubble. And you can't move. And the Fighter walks away. Woopdie fucking do.

And while animal buying rules can be stupid, you're directly applying them in a TO manner. Jaron's analogy that the logical conclusion of magic items is everyone buys Candles is apt. We don't ban magic items in games, we ban Candles. Therefore, we don't ban buying mounts, we ban buying level inappropriate mounts.

Bauglir

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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #399 on: January 31, 2011, 08:22:45 PM »
Hooray, Sunic has designed a turtle that is only effective against archers?
So you end up stuck in an endless loop, unable to act, forever.

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