Author Topic: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?  (Read 101745 times)

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X-Codes

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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #360 on: January 29, 2011, 12:14:45 AM »
It still fucks over people who make a shitload of attacks in a round, such as a Totemist or a PsyWar who happens to take that particular route, or any archer build that makes use of things like the Splitting enhancement and other ways to multiply your attacks. In fact, DR seems to me to be the major reason those are regarded as generally (but not always) inferior to THF builds.
Nevermind that a reasonable amount of DR + the Elusive Target feat = bypass the DR or be unilaterally FUCKED.

Sunic_Flames

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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #361 on: January 29, 2011, 11:13:33 AM »
It still fucks over people who make a shitload of attacks in a round, such as a Totemist or a PsyWar who happens to take that particular route, or any archer build that makes use of things like the Splitting enhancement and other ways to multiply your attacks. In fact, DR seems to me to be the major reason those are regarded as generally (but not always) inferior to THF builds.

The major reason? No. Because even if you got past that, either by treating TWF as ignoring half of DR, or hell making it bypass all DR including DR/- you'd still have the problem of needing more stats, and more gold to do less damage with TWF. For Splitting the problem is similar - need specific weapon enchantments just to do it at all, more feats, and still do less damage than a melee build. Not to mention to do ranged DPS, you have to be within 30 feet, which rather defeats the point of using a ranged weapon in the first place. DR is admittedly not a problem, mostly because you need Force to not be auto negated by a Wind Wall anyways. The fact that also bypasses all DR is a bonus.

There's a reason I houseruled TWF so that you take one feat with no prereqs, and you get offhand attacks = mainhand attacks, so it automatically scales as your BAB goes up, your haste boots come online, and so forth. It still ends up inferior, but not by nearly as much. And the more gold was addressed by raising WBL 50%.
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lans

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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #362 on: January 29, 2011, 11:26:43 AM »
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Quote
Not to mention to do ranged DPS, you have to be within 30 feet, which rather defeats the point of using a ranged weapon in the first place.

Only swift hunter needs to be with in 30 feet, fighters and cleric archers are just fine outside of 1 less hit and damage.

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Bauglir

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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #363 on: January 29, 2011, 01:10:55 PM »
It still fucks over people who make a shitload of attacks in a round, such as a Totemist or a PsyWar who happens to take that particular route, or any archer build that makes use of things like the Splitting enhancement and other ways to multiply your attacks. In fact, DR seems to me to be the major reason those are regarded as generally (but not always) inferior to THF builds.

The major reason? No. Because even if you got past that, either by treating TWF as ignoring half of DR, or hell making it bypass all DR including DR/- you'd still have the problem of needing more stats, and more gold to do less damage with TWF. For Splitting the problem is similar - need specific weapon enchantments just to do it at all, more feats, and still do less damage than a melee build. Not to mention to do ranged DPS, you have to be within 30 feet, which rather defeats the point of using a ranged weapon in the first place. DR is admittedly not a problem, mostly because you need Force to not be auto negated by a Wind Wall anyways. The fact that also bypasses all DR is a bonus.

There's a reason I houseruled TWF so that you take one feat with no prereqs, and you get offhand attacks = mainhand attacks, so it automatically scales as your BAB goes up, your haste boots come online, and so forth. It still ends up inferior, but not by nearly as much. And the more gold was addressed by raising WBL 50%.

Eh, you're doing less damage, yeah. In my experience, both routes do enough damage to insta-gib an opponent if you heavily optimize them. If you don't, you don't have as many multipliers to THF. Unless you have a shitload of attacks that aren't bypassing DR, in which case the DR applies multiple times and your damage output decreases drastically as a result.

I do agree with your TWF houserule, though, I tend to do that myself in my games. So I suppose you're right, I should have said "a major reason" instead of "the major reason".
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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #364 on: January 30, 2011, 09:59:25 AM »
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Quote
Not to mention to do ranged DPS, you have to be within 30 feet, which rather defeats the point of using a ranged weapon in the first place.

Only swift hunter needs to be with in 30 feet, fighters and cleric archers are just fine outside of 1 less hit and damage.



Fighters don't do enough damage, Clerics are better off being Clerics. Though technically they are the only ones not dependent on precision damage to do ranged damage.
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[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

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[/spoiler]

lans

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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #365 on: January 30, 2011, 10:55:08 AM »
.
Quote
Not to mention to do ranged DPS, you have to be within 30 feet, which rather defeats the point of using a ranged weapon in the first place.

Only swift hunter needs to be with in 30 feet, fighters and cleric archers are just fine outside of 1 less hit and damage.



Fighters don't do enough damage, Clerics are better off being Clerics. Though technically they are the only ones not dependent on precision damage to do ranged damage.
I'm pretty sure fighters do enough damage at low and high levels, add in the targeteer variant and it should be pretty good. The mid levels seem to be where the problem is usually.

Also charging is way easier to shut down than ranged combat. Ranged combat takes a 3rd level spell that takes a standard action to cast, while charging can be shut down by a 1st level spell that takes a swift action to cast, or  marbles, or a little bit of mud, grass a little too high, the enemy being airborne.
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Sunic_Flames

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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #366 on: January 30, 2011, 12:38:28 PM »
The things that counter the counters are not hard to get. Meanwhile, all archers must have Force so they aren't shut down completely by Wind Wall and Force comes online well after Wind Wall.

Both are easy to shut down, but archers are easier to negate than beatsticks. There's also things that specifically add to AC vs ranged (which you get to block rays, and casually shut down archers as a side effect) and give a 50% miss chance vs ranged on the cheap that cannot be ignored by any effect except maybe Seeking. Which also becomes mandatory for the same reason.

Not even touching on the other problems of a Fighter archer here, such as being unable to see enemies that are at a distance to shoot at them.
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[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

snakeman830

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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #367 on: January 30, 2011, 01:10:55 PM »
Not even touching on the other problems of a Fighter archer here, such as being unable to see enemies that are at a distance to shoot at them.
Which is why I typically go Ranger for archery.  They get the most important feats for free and have the Spot checks to see their foe (plus their archery spells in spell compendium and other sources).
I am constantly amazed by how many DM's ban Tomb of Battle.  The book doesn't even exist!

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Bauglir

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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #368 on: January 30, 2011, 01:56:24 PM »
Actually, just out of curiosity, what bit of the rules lets Force arrows overcome a Wind Wall? I guess you could argue that they're no longer arrows, but even so they still seem to have a 30% miss chance, unless you decide that "normal" means "mundane" and not "not massive" as implied by the parenthetical note. I dunno, it seems a bit dodgy, although it seems like a nice enough thing to do to let an archetype not autofail.
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Mixster

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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #369 on: January 30, 2011, 02:54:31 PM »
What monster can cast wind wall? I can't think of any.
Monks are pretty much the best designed class ever.

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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #370 on: January 30, 2011, 03:20:56 PM »
A quick search of the SRD reveals these monsters: androsphinx, brain collector, bralani, couatl, dragon (depending on age and type), dust mephit, elder titan, formian queen, ghaele, lammasu, nymph, planetar, rakshasa, solar, and trumpet archon.  Also, you could fight something with class levels. 

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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #371 on: January 30, 2011, 03:34:27 PM »
A quick search of the SRD reveals these monsters: androsphinx, brain collector, bralani, couatl, dragon (depending on age and type), dust mephit, elder titan, formian queen, ghaele, lammasu, nymph, planetar, rakshasa, solar, and trumpet archon.  Also, you could fight something with class levels. 

Yeah, but it sure beats relying on precision damage and therefore not being able to hurt oozes, undead, elementals and their associates.
So yeah, wind wall is bad for an archer, but on the other hand it is relatively rare to encounter.
Monks are pretty much the best designed class ever.

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JaronK

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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #372 on: January 30, 2011, 03:55:55 PM »
Fighters don't do enough damage, Clerics are better off being Clerics. Though technically they are the only ones not dependent on precision damage to do ranged damage.

Having played with Fighter and Cleric archers quite a bit, this is wrong.  Fighter archers can do a LOT of damage... plenty to kill any enemy of anywhere near appropriate CR.  And Force is for overcoming DR, not Wind Wall... Wind Wall is a spell that basically takes archers out, but it's not like everyone has it, and Wind Wall itself can be bypassed simply by moving through it (yes, you'll need the ability to be maneuverable, but who doesn't?).  Fighters seem to be better archers in general (from a pure damage output standpoint) compared to anyone else until about level 10, where the Clerics begin to really take over.  It definitely does require a bit of optimization to make it work (Splitting Force bows, perhaps the Thug variant for enough skillpoints to take Educated and Knowledge Devotion, every archery feat you can get your hands on), but damage is not their problem.

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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #373 on: January 30, 2011, 04:03:54 PM »
Not even touching on the other problems of a Fighter archer here, such as being unable to see enemies that are at a distance to shoot at them.
Which is why I typically go Ranger for archery.  They get the most important feats for free and have the Spot checks to see their foe (plus their archery spells in spell compendium and other sources).

Rangers have other problems, though Swift Hunters are fine (but have the range with lack of range problem).

Actually, just out of curiosity, what bit of the rules lets Force arrows overcome a Wind Wall? I guess you could argue that they're no longer arrows, but even so they still seem to have a 30% miss chance, unless you decide that "normal" means "mundane" and not "not massive" as implied by the parenthetical note. I dunno, it seems a bit dodgy, although it seems like a nice enough thing to do to let an archetype not autofail.

It's a force projectile, not an arrow/bolt and not a siege weapon. Same reason it bypasses all DR. It's still a +2 enchantment to counter a 3rd level spell.

As for moving through a Wind Wall, yeah sure, you can do that. You've now closed to the enemy, and are inside their Wind Wall, which probably took you more actions than it did for them to put the Wind Wall there. More to the point you have the ranged weapon sans range problem, as you are now close to them. So assuming you didn't spend the entire combat double moving, well you've still defeated the point of having a pewpewpew spec.
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[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

JaronK

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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #374 on: January 30, 2011, 04:33:27 PM »
Considering you're now a physical fighty type next to a casty type, that's not really an issue.  The point of archery isn't to stay away from combat in general, but to be able to apply your damage to whereever it needs to be when it needs to be there while being able to position yourself in the best place to be, without those two places being the same.  If that means staying still and acting like an automated turret so be it.  If it means maneuvering around obstacles (including Wind Wall) so be it.  If it means staying back and attacking at a distance, so be it.  It certainly doesn't mean the point has been defeated if you move into a better position and unload firepower (though for obvious reasons a full attack based character doesn't want to move too much... but this is why getting a mount is such a good idea when doing this.  A simple medium sized flying mount for a small archer means you can be fully mobile while shooting, meaning wind wall costs them a standard action and only costs you a forced position change that you likely don't mind too much.

Me, I like using Desmoderu Hunting Bats as a basic mount, since in this sort of situation they can trip the caster who decided to throw up the wind wall, and that means even more actions they're losing if they tried that.

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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #375 on: January 30, 2011, 04:43:18 PM »
Level:    Air 2, Clr 3, Drd 3, Rgr 2, Sor/Wiz 3.

So let's see here:

You are in melee range with a CoDzilla: Um yeah, you're losing that fight hardcore.
You are in close range with an arcane caster: They have the best defenses in the game, so they can dance through your pewpewpew like an Immortal Haruspex build.
You are in close range with a melee Ranger: Ok, you'll probably win this one.
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[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

JaronK

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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #376 on: January 30, 2011, 04:49:13 PM »
I'm not sure a Wizard 5 is going to have great defenses when he's trying to throw up Wind Walls as the primary defensive tactic in such a situation.  Being next to a Halfling Fighter 5 on a Hunting Bat?  Not a very good position for such a caster (remember, Mirror Image is defeated by a single Alchemist's Fire).  Even a Cleric 5 isn't going to find such a position very comfortable.  Druid's probably okay though, as he probably IS a Hunting Bat.  Still, you're putting a lot of pressure on T1 enemies as a T5 and forcing them to burn spells and actions to deal with you.  I'd say you're doing your job admirably.

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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #377 on: January 30, 2011, 04:56:37 PM »
Level:    Air 2, Clr 3, Drd 3, Rgr 2, Sor/Wiz 3.

So let's see here:

You are in melee range with a CoDzilla: Um yeah, you're losing that fight hardcore.
You are in close range with an arcane caster: They have the best defenses in the game, so they can dance through your pewpewpew like an Immortal Haruspex build.
You are in close range with a melee Ranger: Ok, you'll probably win this one.
If Arcane casters are already bulletproof as you claim, they why the hell would they cast Wind Wall in the first place?

Also, what if said Ranger is actually a Swift Hunter that wants to force you to come within 30' of him (or melee range, some Swift Hunters go that way, too, especially with CC Lion Totem Barbarian) and use the time you take traveling from point A to point B buffing up?

What if you, yourself, as an archer have some buffing options and spend your time traveling from point A to point B buffing up?  Even Fighters can drink potions and use wands/scrolls/staves.  Hell, maybe they went the Mounted Archery route and just have their Phantom Steed/Pegasus/Mercury Dragon mount run like hell through the windwall, allowing the archer to get free shots on the Wizard behind it?

Your problem, Sunic, is that you assume that everyone else is an idiot.  There's not only a rational response to all the bullshit you spew, there's a pretty damn good one.

zugschef

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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #378 on: January 30, 2011, 07:00:37 PM »
Also, what if said Ranger is actually a Swift Hunter that wants to force you to come within 30' of him (or melee range, some Swift Hunters go that way, too, especially with CC Lion Totem Barbarian) and use the time you take traveling from point A to point B buffing up?
what if said ranger is a mystic wild-shaping ranger and tears you apart?

Sunic_Flames

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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #379 on: January 30, 2011, 08:23:18 PM »
Well, if the Ranger is a Swift Hunter, I guess the Fighter loses there too. The rest is more lies and fail though MBF, so that in no way helps you to make your point. Quite the opposite.

There's also the classic Jaron response. So how is this Fighter 5 (lol Fighter 5, as if that's ever scary, and also lol at picking the minimum level) getting a hunting bat from the Book of Random Numbers? I already know what you will say to this, and I already have an lol counter ready for it. So by all means, say it. I dare you.
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[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]