Author Topic: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?  (Read 97252 times)

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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #340 on: January 24, 2011, 04:28:31 PM »
Class Defense A-D

Class Defense A - Unarmored types = Class level
Class Defense B - Full BAB types = 3/4 class level
Class Defense C - Medium BAB = 1/2 class level
Class Defense D - Poor BAB = 1/4 class level

Armor: DR X/-, AC 1/2 X (round down) where X is normal AC value, including enhancements.

Gave the monk a slight edge in the evasiveness...because they'll need every little scrap they can get if armor wearers get DR.

Optional rule: To be realistic, DR could be slashing/bludgeoning/piercing depending on type. For example, Chain Shirt would be DR 4/-piercing (and +2 AC), because you have to use thrusting weapons to be most effective. Whereas plate mail being heavy is more vulnerable to bludgeoning since the force of the weapon pushes the armor into the wearer delivering the full force of the blow.
Top-end Defense bonus should absolutely *not* be full class levels.  You'd neuter every last ability that applies any penalty at all to attack rolls, including Power Attack.

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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #341 on: January 24, 2011, 09:18:00 PM »
Actually, given that the only class that should get Category A Class Defense is the monk(who does have innate AC enhancers), you can just give them B and let their innates cover the rest.

For the matter, unlatch it from BAB(though its a decent rule of thumb), and make them class specific:
Fighters, Barbarians, Rogues, Monks, Paladins -> 3/4  class level, these are for the front liners and naturally evasive classes.
Clerics, Druids, Duskblades -> 1/2 class level, either for those who need not engage in close combat or who habitually rely on magic for defense while doing so.
Wizards, Sorcerors, Archivists ->1/4 class level, these don't belong in close combat.
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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #342 on: January 25, 2011, 02:04:21 PM »
Actually, given that the only class that should get Category A Class Defense is the monk(who does have innate AC enhancers), you can just give them B and let their innates cover the rest.

For the matter, unlatch it from BAB(though its a decent rule of thumb), and make them class specific:
Fighters, Barbarians, Rogues, Monks, Paladins -> 3/4  class level, these are for the front liners and naturally evasive classes.
Clerics, Druids, Duskblades -> 1/2 class level, either for those who need not engage in close combat or who habitually rely on magic for defense while doing so.
Wizards, Sorcerors, Archivists ->1/4 class level, these don't belong in close combat.

How do Duskblades rely on magic for protection? I don't count the few spells that give deflection bonuses, since a) you'll probably buy a +5 ring and b) those cost spells known & actions.

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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #343 on: January 26, 2011, 02:53:36 AM »
How do Duskblades rely on magic for protection? I don't count the few spells that give deflection bonuses, since a) you'll probably buy a +5 ring and b) those cost spells known & actions.
I rarely buy Deflection rings.  I don't think going from the +4 bonus of a Shield of Law/Holy Aura spell to the +5 bonus of a deflection ring is worth both the gold investment and the item slot.

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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #344 on: January 26, 2011, 01:32:28 PM »
How do Duskblades rely on magic for protection? I don't count the few spells that give deflection bonuses, since a) you'll probably buy a +5 ring and b) those cost spells known & actions.
I rarely buy Deflection rings.  I don't think going from the +4 bonus of a Shield of Law/Holy Aura spell to the +5 bonus of a deflection ring is worth both the gold investment and the item slot.

Away from books, but I don't think those last an entire adventure day. Nor are they standard choosable by a Duskblade. The other casters have other spells to boost their defenses better, on top of a +5 Deflection bonus. (Miss Chances, other types of armour bonus, etc.)

So, I beg to differ and lump the Duskblade with the toprank.

Another issue would be the Psychic Warrior: a frontliner, naturally evasive, but on the other hand: impressive powers to boost his defense.

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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #345 on: January 26, 2011, 06:36:29 PM »
They're both 8th-level Cleric spells.  They do have a short duration, yes, but target the entire group and are persistable with DMM.  I think the best part is the added save-or-suck effect that occurs when someone warded by the spell is hit.

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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #346 on: January 27, 2011, 01:15:33 PM »
They're both 8th-level Cleric spells.  They do have a short duration, yes, but target the entire group and are persistable with DMM.  I think the best part is the added save-or-suck effect that occurs when someone warded by the spell is hit.

Still, I don't think you should judge the Duskblade as if they're standard issue for him. Why not do that for the Fighter, Paladin, etc then? Remember, some groups consider DMM the height of TO.  :banghead

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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #347 on: January 27, 2011, 05:07:40 PM »
They're both 8th-level Cleric spells.  They do have a short duration, yes, but target the entire group and are persistable with DMM.  I think the best part is the added save-or-suck effect that occurs when someone warded by the spell is hit.

Still, I don't think you should judge the Duskblade as if they're standard issue for him. Why not do that for the Fighter, Paladin, etc then? Remember, some groups consider DMM the height of TO.  :banghead

They're still good spells worth casting by a Cleric if DMM: Persist is banned.  Quicken rods are still available, afterall.

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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #348 on: January 27, 2011, 05:12:45 PM »
I'm not saying that Clerics are good only because of DMM, just that classifing the Duskblade "to rely on Magic for defense" because Clerics can cast those spells, is a stretch too far. ;)

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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #349 on: January 27, 2011, 09:46:11 PM »
Spamming Vampiric Touch could be considered defense.
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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #350 on: January 28, 2011, 03:44:12 PM »
Spamming Vampiric Touch could be considered defense.

Except that it is a free action to cast Empowered Vampiric Touch.
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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #351 on: January 28, 2011, 04:08:46 PM »
what i don't like about damage reduction, though, is that it fucks over archers and casters give shit about your damage reduction...

thinking about it, damage reduction seems to be one of the true failures of the the d20 system.

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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #352 on: January 28, 2011, 04:24:11 PM »
what i don't like about damage reduction, though, is that it fucks over archers and casters give shit about your damage reduction...

thinking about it, damage reduction seems to be one of the true failures of the the d20 system.
Hardness is both better and worse. It's really difficult to overcome it even with magic (though psionics can deal just fine), but only if you actually care about hp damage (and most casters don't).
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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #353 on: January 28, 2011, 05:15:50 PM »
DR is one of those things that can make the game interesting by forcing you to figure out how to bypass it. It'd have a place in a balanced system, I think, but probably not as a ubiquitous ability that all monsters are expected to get as levels go up. The problem is that the people who are the least impacted by it (spellcasters) are already the most powerful in the game, and their own special "Monster arbitrarily fucks you over system", SR, is trivial to bypass or overcome. So really it's just another way of fucking over people that are already getting the short end of the stick, while caster-types get to continue being awesome.
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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #354 on: January 28, 2011, 05:26:13 PM »
DR is one of those things that can make the game interesting by forcing you to figure out how to bypass it. It'd have a place in a balanced system, I think, but probably not as a ubiquitous ability that all monsters are expected to get as levels go up. The problem is that the people who are the least impacted by it (spellcasters) are already the most powerful in the game, and their own special "Monster arbitrarily fucks you over system", SR, is trivial to bypass or overcome. So really it's just another way of fucking over people that are already getting the short end of the stick, while caster-types get to continue being awesome.
you have given yourself the answer to why i think damage reduction is made of failure. and btw, there is the problem with x/- and x/bludgeoning or slashing which archers will never be able to bypass... (unless they have a way to ignore DR alltogehter.)

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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #355 on: January 28, 2011, 05:28:50 PM »
There are slashing and bludgeoning arrows.
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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #356 on: January 28, 2011, 05:29:32 PM »
DR is one of those things that can make the game interesting by forcing you to figure out how to bypass it. It'd have a place in a balanced system, I think, but probably not as a ubiquitous ability that all monsters are expected to get as levels go up. The problem is that the people who are the least impacted by it (spellcasters) are already the most powerful in the game, and their own special "Monster arbitrarily fucks you over system", SR, is trivial to bypass or overcome. So really it's just another way of fucking over people that are already getting the short end of the stick, while caster-types get to continue being awesome.
you have given yourself the answer to why i think damage reduction is made of failure. and btw, there is the problem with x/- and x/bludgeoning or slashing which archers will never be able to bypass... (unless they have a way to ignore DR alltogehter.)
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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #357 on: January 28, 2011, 06:58:36 PM »
Those points would be valid, except that DR is trivial to overcome also. It's called "Do enough damage to make the enemy actually care you are hitting them".

If you can do this, you won't care that you sometimes lose 5 or 10 of it (rarely higher). If you cannot, you have worse problems. DR is just an early warning system, really.

It was true in 3rd edition, when DR actually blocked a significant amount of damage but not in 3.5.
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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #358 on: January 28, 2011, 07:26:47 PM »
It still fucks over people who make a shitload of attacks in a round, such as a Totemist or a PsyWar who happens to take that particular route, or any archer build that makes use of things like the Splitting enhancement and other ways to multiply your attacks. In fact, DR seems to me to be the major reason those are regarded as generally (but not always) inferior to THF builds.
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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #359 on: January 28, 2011, 07:56:32 PM »
Played in a game once which, as a houserule, converted every point of DR into a 5% reduction in damage from all attacks that did not bypass the DR. Seemed to work pretty well - though, again, DR is almost always a trivial effort to bypass.
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