Author Topic: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?  (Read 98141 times)

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Nytemare3701

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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #320 on: January 22, 2011, 11:37:02 PM »
The fact that fighters who were stripped of equipment have to rely on the combat expertise feat is just stupid (It's also stupid that it's a feat and not just freely available to full BAB classes)
If you think about it, Expertise is just an improved fighting defensively, and thus makes sense as a feat.
If you think about it more you'll realize that fighting defensively sucks 9/10 times and should be improved.
So make fighting defensively work like Expertise
Make Expertise give a penalty to adjacent(with in reach?) enemies attacks, and a bonus to your AC vs nonadjacent enemies(WiR?).

lans

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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #321 on: January 22, 2011, 11:48:16 PM »
The fact that fighters who were stripped of equipment have to rely on the combat expertise feat is just stupid (It's also stupid that it's a feat and not just freely available to full BAB classes)
If you think about it, Expertise is just an improved fighting defensively, and thus makes sense as a feat.
If you think about it more you'll realize that fighting defensively sucks 9/10 times and should be improved.
So make fighting defensively work like Expertise
Make Expertise give a penalty to adjacent(with in reach?) enemies attacks, and a bonus to your AC vs nonadjacent enemies(WiR?).
I wanted to make it more like Shared Defense, but more offensive. IE The archer is trying to kill the mayor who has 2hp, and you won't let him.
Skill prodigy from Kingdoms of Kalamar

Nytemare3701

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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #322 on: January 22, 2011, 11:52:37 PM »
That would be a rewrite to one of the shield feats. Combat Expertise has nothing to do with raising the AC of others. I'll add a "Superior Combat Expertise" feat that allows that though. It seems like a valid tactic that really doesn't get any love.

EDIT: made a thread for it in the homebrew section.

veekie

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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #323 on: January 23, 2011, 01:45:15 AM »
Pics or didn't happen!
It's unreasonable for the guy to have a girlfriend... but a daughter you can totally buy?  :lol
If you insist on having the last word, at least try to make it one worth reading.  You're like a 10 year old thinking he rules the playground because he was able to spout nonsense longer than anyone else.
I was thinking 8-year-old ginger... or perhaps the real Sunic Flames lent his BG account to his special needs nephew or something.
Just ignore him, and stop feeding the troll. He is just a troll, and a bad one at that.
I'm fully capable of mocking him and ignoring him at the same time.  It might even make him rage harder, which is potentially entertaining.

As for making it harder to bypass AC, I think that's where a Class-based Defense bonus can help also.  Have it apply to both touch and FF attacks and scale at a slightly slower rate than BAB (the best rates should probably be about 2/3 BAB, or maybe 1/2 BAB, and classes like Wizards should only get 1/4 or less).  The purpose there isn't to make every single attack miss, but more to making iterative attacks miss and allowing enemies to PA for less and maintain accuracy.  The various magical buffs all scale at roughly the same rate, and even the occasional ridiculous spell like Wraithstrike is made less effective by the Defense bonus applying to it.
Class Defense bonus always seems like one of the ideas that should have been in from the start. Who thought it was a good idea for high level characters to get no better at evading anyway?

Hmm. So the following in combination.
Armor -> DR and material benefits(i.e. admant giving Hardness instead of DR/adamant, cold iron giving bonuses to resisting magic) only. This includes magical sources of Armor bonuses.
Class Defense bonus(NOT based off armor proficiencies or BAB, give three progressions and assign one to each class)
« Last Edit: January 23, 2011, 01:47:50 AM by veekie »
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."

X-Codes

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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #324 on: January 23, 2011, 04:16:03 AM »
Hey guys look, it's more dumbfucks whining and flailing at me like cracked windmills, instead of taking the not so subtle hint to SHUT THE FUCK UP and the flames will stop.

Also, Hi Welcome Jaron.

Sunic are you afraid of windmills?

Sunic, are you Don Quixote!?!?
Sunic isn't cool enough to be Don Quixote.  I mean, not even Sancho Panza buys his shit.

Class Defense bonus always seems like one of the ideas that should have been in from the start. Who thought it was a good idea for high level characters to get no better at evading anyway?

Hmm. So the following in combination.
Armor -> DR and material benefits(i.e. admant giving Hardness instead of DR/adamant, cold iron giving bonuses to resisting magic) only. This includes magical sources of Armor bonuses.
Class Defense bonus(NOT based off armor proficiencies or BAB, give three progressions and assign one to each class)
Actually, I think Armor should give AC as well.  The scale should be something like this:

@ Level 1: Strength & Misc Mods give ~+5 bonus to attacks.  Exceptional characters hit better, lousy ones hit worse.
Cheap Light Armor + some Dex gives about +5 to AC, more expensive Light Armor might give a couple points more.
Cheap Medium Armor gives about +5 to AC, more expensive Medium armor gives a little more, and some Dex can also improve it.
Cheap Heavy Armor gives about +9 to AC, but really doesn't allow for Dex at all.
Shields give a flat bonus to AC.  Magic shields don't improve the AC bonus given by a shield.  Shields are enhanced strictly as weapons, with a few shield-specific special abilities.  Shields also apply to touch AC.

Scaling: BAB goes up at 3/4 or full levels, compared to 1/2 or 2/3 for less defensively-minded characters.
Attack rolls gain enhancement bonuses and morale bonuses.
AC gains enhancement bonuses, natural armor bonuses, and deflection bonuses.

So an average attacker at level 1 has a +5 bonus to attacks vs. an average AC of 16. (hits on 11+)
An average attacker at level 20 has a +35 bonus to attacks vs. an average AC of 44. (hits on 9+)
Numbers on both sides are increased by slight variations, like increasing Strength and Dexterity scores, other sources of attack modifiers like insight bonuses, and so on.  That's where CO comes into play.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2011, 04:30:33 AM by X-Codes »

GawainBS

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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #325 on: January 23, 2011, 06:39:40 AM »
Pics or didn't happen!


It's that I seem to recall that JaronK said "One of my girlS". Several girlfriends at the same time tend to not mix well. ;)

Polyamory.  But I think that's enough on the topic of my personal life.  Quick, look, Sunic's flaming again!  Get him guys!

JaronK

Brave, very brave...  ;)

Gods_Trick

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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #326 on: January 23, 2011, 08:46:45 AM »

Sunic are you afraid of windmills?

Sunic, are you Don Quixote!?!?

Dark, I sincerely ask you to please stop making me laugh out loud so hard when I'm sneaking peeks at BG from my lectures  :lol

Sunic_Flames

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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #327 on: January 23, 2011, 10:25:35 AM »
Hey guys look, it's more dumbfucks whining and flailing at me like cracked windmills, instead of taking the not so subtle hint to SHUT THE FUCK UP and the flames will stop.

Also, Hi Welcome Jaron.

Sunic are you afraid of windmills?

Sunic, are you Don Quixote!?!?

Real world picture of one of the fail trolls who will not STFU and GFY:

Smiting Imbeciles since 1985.

If you hear this music, run.

And don't forget:


There is no greater contribution than Hi Welcome.

Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.

IP proofing and avoiding being CAPed OR - how to make characters relevant in the long term.

Friends don't let friends be Short Bus Hobos.

[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

Bozwevial

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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #328 on: January 23, 2011, 03:51:35 PM »
You know, that guy's glasses don't look very well-made. The way the lens is attached to the frame would probably interfere with your eyesight.

X-Codes

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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #329 on: January 23, 2011, 04:08:24 PM »
Hey guys look, it's more dumbfucks whining and flailing at me like cracked windmills, instead of taking the not so subtle hint to SHUT THE FUCK UP and the flames will stop.

Also, Hi Welcome Jaron.

Sunic are you afraid of windmills?

Sunic, are you Don Quixote!?!?

Real world picture of one of the fail trolls who will not STFU and GFY:
Wouldn't that make your argument invalid?

Lycanthromancer

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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #330 on: January 23, 2011, 06:41:43 PM »
Polyamory.  But I think that's enough on the topic of my personal life. 
Wow. That's irony, considering that it's instrumental in that story I'm writing using your handle...

Quick, look, Sunic's flaming again!  Get him guys!

JaronK
It's in his name, after all.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2011, 06:49:49 PM by Lycanthromancer »
[spoiler]Masculine men like masculine things. Masculine men are masculine. Therefore, liking masculine men is masculine.

I dare anyone to find a hole in that logic.
______________________________________
[/spoiler]I'm a writer. These are my stories. Some are even SFW! (Warning: Mostly Gay.)
My awesome poster collection. (Warning, some are NSFW.)
Agita's awesome poster collection.
[spoiler]
+1 Lycanthromancer
Which book is Lycanthromancer in?
Lyca ... is in the book. Yes he is.
 :D
shit.. concerning psionics optimization, lycan IS the book
[/spoiler]

dark_samuari

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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #331 on: January 23, 2011, 07:09:02 PM »
Man I wish I had a beard that awesome... Instead all I have is something like this:


Lycanthromancer

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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #332 on: January 23, 2011, 07:15:22 PM »
Man I wish I had a beard that awesome... Instead all I have is something like this:
What, the face that makes him look like a terrorist, or the guy groping him?
[spoiler]Masculine men like masculine things. Masculine men are masculine. Therefore, liking masculine men is masculine.

I dare anyone to find a hole in that logic.
______________________________________
[/spoiler]I'm a writer. These are my stories. Some are even SFW! (Warning: Mostly Gay.)
My awesome poster collection. (Warning, some are NSFW.)
Agita's awesome poster collection.
[spoiler]
+1 Lycanthromancer
Which book is Lycanthromancer in?
Lyca ... is in the book. Yes he is.
 :D
shit.. concerning psionics optimization, lycan IS the book
[/spoiler]

Bozwevial

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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #333 on: January 23, 2011, 07:31:13 PM »
Man I wish I had a beard that awesome... Instead all I have is something like this:
What, the face that makes him look like a terrorist, or the guy groping him?
Nobody fucks with the Jesus.

Lycanthromancer

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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #334 on: January 23, 2011, 07:35:08 PM »
Man I wish I had a beard that awesome... Instead all I have is something like this:
What, the face that makes him look like a terrorist, or the guy groping him?
Nobody fucks with the Jesus.
I think you mean Mary.
[spoiler]Masculine men like masculine things. Masculine men are masculine. Therefore, liking masculine men is masculine.

I dare anyone to find a hole in that logic.
______________________________________
[/spoiler]I'm a writer. These are my stories. Some are even SFW! (Warning: Mostly Gay.)
My awesome poster collection. (Warning, some are NSFW.)
Agita's awesome poster collection.
[spoiler]
+1 Lycanthromancer
Which book is Lycanthromancer in?
Lyca ... is in the book. Yes he is.
 :D
shit.. concerning psionics optimization, lycan IS the book
[/spoiler]

X-Codes

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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #335 on: January 23, 2011, 07:37:42 PM »
Man I wish I had a beard that awesome... Instead all I have is something like this:
What, the face that makes him look like a terrorist, or the guy groping him?
Nobody fucks with the Jesus.
I think you mean Mary.
No, he means the Jesus.  Maybe someone can mix you up a white russian and explain it to you.  :P

Lycanthromancer

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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #336 on: January 23, 2011, 07:41:24 PM »
Man I wish I had a beard that awesome... Instead all I have is something like this:
What, the face that makes him look like a terrorist, or the guy groping him?
Nobody fucks with the Jesus.
I think you mean Mary.
No, he means the Jesus.  Maybe someone can mix you up a white russian and explain it to you.  :P
Nobody fucks with Mary, either.

Otherwise she wouldn't have gotten preggers.

...And yes, I'm fully aware of how much sense that doesn't make.

Talk to the cultists.
[spoiler]Masculine men like masculine things. Masculine men are masculine. Therefore, liking masculine men is masculine.

I dare anyone to find a hole in that logic.
______________________________________
[/spoiler]I'm a writer. These are my stories. Some are even SFW! (Warning: Mostly Gay.)
My awesome poster collection. (Warning, some are NSFW.)
Agita's awesome poster collection.
[spoiler]
+1 Lycanthromancer
Which book is Lycanthromancer in?
Lyca ... is in the book. Yes he is.
 :D
shit.. concerning psionics optimization, lycan IS the book
[/spoiler]

Mixster

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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #337 on: January 23, 2011, 08:17:40 PM »
Man I wish I had a beard that awesome... Instead all I have is something like this:
What, the face that makes him look like a terrorist, or the guy groping him?
Nobody fucks with the Jesus.
I think you mean Mary.
No, he means the Jesus.  Maybe someone can mix you up a white russian and explain it to you.  :P
Nobody fucks with Mary, either.

Otherwise she wouldn't have gotten preggers.

...And yes, I'm fully aware of how much sense that doesn't make.

Talk to the cultists.

A way out west there was a fella, fella I want to tell you about, fella by the name of Jeff Lebowski.  At least, that was the handle his lovin' parents gave him, but he never had much use for it himself.  This Lebowski, he called himself the Dude.
Monks are pretty much the best designed class ever.

JaronK

Meep Meep - Mixster out

veekie

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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #338 on: January 24, 2011, 12:13:01 AM »
Hey guys look, it's more dumbfucks whining and flailing at me like cracked windmills, instead of taking the not so subtle hint to SHUT THE FUCK UP and the flames will stop.

Also, Hi Welcome Jaron.

Sunic are you afraid of windmills?

Sunic, are you Don Quixote!?!?
Sunic isn't cool enough to be Don Quixote.  I mean, not even Sancho Panza buys his shit.

Class Defense bonus always seems like one of the ideas that should have been in from the start. Who thought it was a good idea for high level characters to get no better at evading anyway?

Hmm. So the following in combination.
Armor -> DR and material benefits(i.e. admant giving Hardness instead of DR/adamant, cold iron giving bonuses to resisting magic) only. This includes magical sources of Armor bonuses.
Class Defense bonus(NOT based off armor proficiencies or BAB, give three progressions and assign one to each class)
Actually, I think Armor should give AC as well.  The scale should be something like this:

@ Level 1: Strength & Misc Mods give ~+5 bonus to attacks.  Exceptional characters hit better, lousy ones hit worse.
Cheap Light Armor + some Dex gives about +5 to AC, more expensive Light Armor might give a couple points more.
Cheap Medium Armor gives about +5 to AC, more expensive Medium armor gives a little more, and some Dex can also improve it.
Cheap Heavy Armor gives about +9 to AC, but really doesn't allow for Dex at all.
Shields give a flat bonus to AC.  Magic shields don't improve the AC bonus given by a shield.  Shields are enhanced strictly as weapons, with a few shield-specific special abilities.  Shields also apply to touch AC.

Scaling: BAB goes up at 3/4 or full levels, compared to 1/2 or 2/3 for less defensively-minded characters.
Attack rolls gain enhancement bonuses and morale bonuses.
AC gains enhancement bonuses, natural armor bonuses, and deflection bonuses.

So an average attacker at level 1 has a +5 bonus to attacks vs. an average AC of 16. (hits on 11+)
An average attacker at level 20 has a +35 bonus to attacks vs. an average AC of 44. (hits on 9+)
Numbers on both sides are increased by slight variations, like increasing Strength and Dexterity scores, other sources of attack modifiers like insight bonuses, and so on.  That's where CO comes into play.
Well, I mean to have the AC component largely come from class defense, strictly replacing Armor as an AC type.
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."

skydragonknight

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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #339 on: January 24, 2011, 10:20:44 AM »
Class Defense A-D

Class Defense A - Unarmored types = Class level
Class Defense B - Full BAB types = 3/4 class level
Class Defense C - Medium BAB = 1/2 class level
Class Defense D - Poor BAB = 1/4 class level

Armor: DR X/-, AC 1/2 X (round down) where X is normal AC value, including enhancements.

Gave the monk a slight edge in the evasiveness...because they'll need every little scrap they can get if armor wearers get DR.

Optional rule: To be realistic, DR could be slashing/bludgeoning/piercing depending on type. For example, Chain Shirt would be DR 4/-piercing (and +2 AC), because you have to use thrusting weapons to be most effective. Whereas plate mail being heavy is more vulnerable to bludgeoning since the force of the weapon pushes the armor into the wearer delivering the full force of the blow.
It always seems like the barrels around here have something in them.