Author Topic: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?  (Read 99181 times)

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PlzBreakMyCampaign

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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #200 on: January 17, 2011, 05:27:34 AM »
Nah, the difference between Sunic and other trolls is he used to have something valuable to say, and say it, and then but gets fed up and flips out now and then all the time.
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« Last Edit: January 17, 2011, 05:29:12 AM by PlzBreakMyCampaign »
[Spoiler]
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An interesting read, nice to see a civil discussion
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X-Codes

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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #201 on: January 17, 2011, 05:29:13 AM »
Nah, the difference between Sunic and other trolls is he used to have something valuable to say, and say it, and then but now gets fed up and flips out now and then all the time.
ftfy  ;)
FTFY.  :P

Bozwevial

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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #202 on: January 17, 2011, 02:35:11 PM »
Yeah, well, I'd rather play DnD with hookers instead.

Hos before pros.
Funnily enough, they don't take in-game treasure as payment. Even when I offered a LA-free template.

Sunic_Flames

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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #203 on: January 17, 2011, 03:41:08 PM »
Sure, he has 2 natural attacks that hit for d8+22, or maybe two attacks with an actual weapon that deal d6+33 and a bite that deals d6+11... A level 13 fighter with just regular Polymorph would have 3 attacks doing at least 3d6+20ish depending on his gear and a comparable attack bonus, plus the bite doing d6+5, and then all would benefit from Power Attack.  If he power attacks for -5 then that's 3 attacks with a large Greatsword doing 3d6+30 and a bite dealing d6+10.  Depending on the fight, his gear selection, and his feat selection, this damage could be MUCH GREATER (FBs would be especially scary), especially on a charge, and it's really not going to be worse at any point.

And the wizard melees for 3 swings, each doing 1d6+40 under the same conditions, and also bites for 1d6+16. And oh yeah, he's still a Wizard, with everything that means. Of course since the wizard has +32 to hit even without other buffs, and is attacking touch AC he can just PA for full... and while that's normally under 6, there's plenty of things that give full casting and > half BAB.

Quote
In other words, that fighter makes better use of your 4th-level Polymorph than your Wizard does of his 5th-level Draconic Polymorph and his 7th-level Bite of the Werebear, plus your Wizard would be able to stand back and cast a 7th-level spell that's actually, you know, GOOD.

No, the Fighter still fails, with or without Polymorph and the Wizard still wins, with or without Draconic Polymorph.

Base Attack Bonus is essential for something other than basic combat, if you recall. Many prestige classes require a minimum base attack bonus, and Wraithstrike will not qualify you for those.

Now if only there were more beatstick PRCs worth a damn, that might actually mean something. But there aren't, so it doesn't.

People whining and flailing about me aside, any party arrangement that does not include a fighter > any party arrangement that does. Even if the fighter does not replace anyone, and therefore the alternative is an empty slot. That means 2 GOD Wizards > anything and a fighter, 1 GOD Wizard and 1 Gish > anything and a fighter, and 2 Gishes > anything and a fighter. Both in terms of auto attacking for HP damage and overall being better. Why? Because fighter = The Load, and you are always better off without one of those.

I'm not sure what the fuck any of this has to do with armors heavier than light though.
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Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

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X-Codes

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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #204 on: January 17, 2011, 05:29:35 PM »
Sunic fails at reading comprehension.

If you want to troll, Sunic, go troll GitP or something.  You're probably better off posting there with your friends Giacomo and Aelryinth, anyway.

lans

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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #205 on: January 17, 2011, 05:51:40 PM »
I think people are exaggerating ACs uselessness. Miss chances are better, but AC often means the difference between being PAed and not being PAed. Or a 10 point difference in the PA.

It only protects you like a miss chance does when your facing multiple low CR creatures. Like 4 CR 3 elemental s, or 2 CR 5s at level 7.

Unless you gimp suit yourself.

Now if only there was a class that had such an obscene amount of resources that it could afford to have a decent AC that didn't amount to a gimp suit.
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snakeman830

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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #206 on: January 17, 2011, 06:21:59 PM »
Now if only there was a class that had such an obscene amount of resources that it could afford to have a decent AC that didn't amount to a gimp suit.
Druid or Artificier do it easily.
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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #207 on: January 17, 2011, 06:32:21 PM »
Now if only there was a class that had such an obscene amount of resources that it could afford to have a decent AC that didn't amount to a gimp suit.
Druid or Artificier do it easily.
I was thinking Wizard, but those work too.
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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #208 on: January 17, 2011, 06:33:11 PM »
Now if only there was a class that had such an obscene amount of resources that it could afford to have a decent AC that didn't amount to a gimp suit.
Druid or Artificier do it easily.
I was thinking Wizard, but those work too.
And my first thought was an Artificer making his own.
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veekie

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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #209 on: January 17, 2011, 09:23:06 PM »
Sunic, I doubt anyone here is saying that fighters > wizards.
People are saying Buffed Generic Fighters are > Buffed Generic Wizards(who would not generally pack things like Power Attack due to having better things to do with his feats) in melee.

So your buffed Fighter might have Power Attack, Improved Trip or suitable tactical feats to expand upon his melee ability built right in. He has a stronger chassis, and so needs less buffing to be effective in melee. Above all, hes got nothing better to do with his actions, whereas a wizard wading into melee, buffed or not, has better things to do. As many better things as he has spell slots remaining.
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Bauglir

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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #210 on: January 17, 2011, 09:32:39 PM »
Also, how often do wizards actually run out of spell slots of levels lower than their highest one or two? The opportunity cost for buffing your Fighter buddy decreases drastically when you're not spending a spell slot that matters much.
So you end up stuck in an endless loop, unable to act, forever.

In retrospect, much like Keanu Reeves.

lans

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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #211 on: January 18, 2011, 12:19:49 AM »
Plus if its a <Tier 3 game, the person whos casting the polymorph is going to be the Adept, who isn't going to have the self only buffs to make up the difference.
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PlzBreakMyCampaign

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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #212 on: January 18, 2011, 01:18:39 AM »
Also, how often do wizards actually run out of spell slots of levels lower than their highest one or two? The opportunity cost for buffing your Fighter buddy decreases drastically when you're not spending a spell slot that matters much.
Good campaigns have time limitations or are atleast not safe. 1 battle work days make things screwy

Back on topic, are their specific heavy armors that are better than specific light armors or atleast as good as celestial armor.
[Spoiler]
Quote
An interesting read, nice to see a civil discussion
The point of Spell Resistance is to make it harder to get buffed.
And healed. Don't forget that.
Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.
[/Spoiler]

Old Geezer's Law of Hobby Taste: The more objectively inconsequential a hobby is, the more disagreements within the community will be expressed in outrageously insulting, overblown, and ludicrously emotionally laden terms.

More Funny than Humble[Spoiler]
Quote from: PlzBreakMyCampaign
Your a shifter... you have all you ever need.
It blows MoMF out of the water

But if your greedy for more [Wish] for something that only effects you, like another class level or two that doesn't count against your ECL.
Quote from: hungryhungryhippo987
Yes, I'm the 3.0 "Masters of the Wild" shifter, the awesome kind. My favorite form to take is Force Dragon. Yes, I am immortal ... My character is hands down the coolest guy in the campaign and there is nothing I could possibly want.
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veekie

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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #213 on: January 18, 2011, 02:09:51 AM »
Also, how often do wizards actually run out of spell slots of levels lower than their highest one or two? The opportunity cost for buffing your Fighter buddy decreases drastically when you're not spending a spell slot that matters much.
Good campaigns have time limitations or are atleast not safe. 1 battle work days make things screwy
Erm, even on a NORMAL campaign day, the wizard isn't at much risk of running out of his spell slots after level 4-5 or so. Most encounters take one or two slots of the wizard's highest or second highest level. Lower as you get more universally effective mid level spells.
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

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Mixster

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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #214 on: January 18, 2011, 10:12:41 AM »
Also, how often do wizards actually run out of spell slots of levels lower than their highest one or two? The opportunity cost for buffing your Fighter buddy decreases drastically when you're not spending a spell slot that matters much.
Good campaigns have time limitations or are atleast not safe. 1 battle work days make things screwy
Erm, even on a NORMAL campaign day, the wizard isn't at much risk of running out of his spell slots after level 4-5 or so. Most encounters take one or two slots of the wizard's highest or second highest level. Lower as you get more universally effective mid level spells.

And even with proper preparation, your first level spells can be very versatile.
Monks are pretty much the best designed class ever.

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veekie

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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #215 on: January 18, 2011, 12:10:40 PM »
So yeah, unless you're running 10 encounter work days, the casters will be fine, just a little tighter than usual. And at higher levels, even 10 encounters that aren't TPK grade might not do that, depending on usage of long duration buffs to get a spell slot through multiple encounters.
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."

Sunic_Flames

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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #216 on: January 18, 2011, 01:48:43 PM »
Sunic fails at reading comprehension.

If you want to troll, Sunic, go troll GitP or something.  You're probably better off posting there with your friends Giacomo and Aelryinth, anyway.

Hi Welcome

The clown Monk guy is banned from GitP. Faelryinth hangs out on the other main fail board.

As for Wizards and spell slots, a spell 2 levels below your max is good enough to pull your weight in an encounter 2 levels higher (level 10 party of 4, Slow, ECL 12 encounter). Running out of spells is not a problem. Granted the Cleric also threw a Greater Command and the other Cleric used 1 (and later a second) use of a 9/day ability. Not the point, as they have similar depth to their resource pools and can therefore easily manage an endurance run.

It helps that the party in that example is all tier 1 casters. That means resources last a lot longer.
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There is no greater contribution than Hi Welcome.

Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.

IP proofing and avoiding being CAPed OR - how to make characters relevant in the long term.

Friends don't let friends be Short Bus Hobos.

[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

Bauglir

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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #217 on: January 18, 2011, 03:46:49 PM »
Great, so we're in agreement, then? A wizard isn't likely to run out of useful spells to begin with, so spending a few to make the fighter feel useful isn't a huge problem?
So you end up stuck in an endless loop, unable to act, forever.

In retrospect, much like Keanu Reeves.

Sunic_Flames

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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #218 on: January 18, 2011, 06:32:54 PM »
Well no, if you have a resource sink in the party you're going to run out a lot faster ensuring he doesn't die all the time. But, assuming you don't spells go very far.
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If you hear this music, run.

And don't forget:


There is no greater contribution than Hi Welcome.

Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.

IP proofing and avoiding being CAPed OR - how to make characters relevant in the long term.

Friends don't let friends be Short Bus Hobos.

[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

wotmaniac

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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #219 on: January 18, 2011, 07:13:26 PM »
Well no, if you have a resource sink in the party you're going to run out a lot faster ensuring he doesn't die all the time. But, assuming you don't spells go very far.
and, of course, I suspect that by "resource sink" you actually mean "non-optimized non-tier 1 character"  :rollseyes
I think you fail to grasp some of the essential elements inherent in the "team effort" concepts; and also suspect that you failed "works and plays wells with others" in school.

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