Author Topic: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?  (Read 98131 times)

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juton

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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #20 on: January 07, 2011, 02:09:20 PM »
Heavy armour has a point at lower levels, when AC still matters. If all you ever play is low levels then it matter a lot, it would have been nice though if they made banded mail/scale mail etc not suck.

Sunic_Flames

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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #21 on: January 07, 2011, 02:13:42 PM »
There's a 4000 gc slotless item that removes the movement penalty, so now your only problem with heavier armour is that you cannot tumble. If you don't have tumble on your class skill list and don't cast arcane spells and don't have a huge dex, I don't see the probelm with paying around 5k gold for +4AC.

2k. not 4k.
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Ikeren

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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #22 on: January 07, 2011, 02:48:31 PM »
Making clerics awesome.

Nachofan99

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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #23 on: January 07, 2011, 05:43:35 PM »
A couple of AC at lower levels is good; it just never scales.

They were supposed to make more spells and effects like Wall of Thorns, but didn't.

They were supposed to make a variety of status effects that simply wearing heavy armor would allow you to ignore, but didn't.  I use things like that in some of my games; heavy armor=no effect, medium=reduced, light=full, no armor=bonus effect.

Additionally, it's heavy/medium armor proficiency are great to trade for Drow Hit and Run Fighter Sub level in Drow of the Underdark and also the very underused and highly sweet Dragonscale Husk ACF in Dragon Magic.  Hey look, AC and resistance that scales with your level!  Hey look, a mechanic that makes sense for melee!  Sadly they just didn't deliver enough stuff *like* that.

JaronK

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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #24 on: January 07, 2011, 07:22:58 PM »
At lower levels it can certainly be worth it, before you can afford stuff like the Chain Shirt/Dastana/Char-whatever combo.  This is especially true if you can craft your own gear before the game starts for the 2/3 cost reduction.  I made a Kobold Paladin with Mithral Mechanicus Gear that way... AC 24 at level 6 is actually quite effective, and with a mount his movement speed doesn't really matter.  Plus, the cost wasn't very steep at all.  Due to MAD, his Dex wasn't getting higher than 14 anyway.

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skydragonknight

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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #25 on: January 08, 2011, 10:45:34 AM »
Heavy Armor is for Paladins, who are so MAD by nature that it allows them to safely dump Dex without getting squished to death.

At lower levels it can certainly be worth it, before you can afford stuff like the Chain Shirt/Dastana/Char-whatever combo.  This is especially true if you can craft your own gear before the game starts for the 2/3 cost reduction.  I made a Kobold Paladin with Mithral Mechanicus Gear that way... AC 24 at level 6 is actually quite effective, and with a mount his movement speed doesn't really matter.  Plus, the cost wasn't very steep at all.  Due to MAD, his Dex wasn't getting higher than 14 anyway.

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Benly

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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #26 on: January 08, 2011, 11:49:11 AM »
On top of previous arguments, chahar-aina and dastana are from 3.0 sources which are either unupdated or Dragon-update only, putting them in a nebulous realm similar to Dragon material where access can't be assumed. They are also potentially setting-unavailable given how many campaigns play out in pseudo-European settings.

Even then, heavy armor is still too heavily penalized to be worthwhile for a lot of characters, especially at high levels where the couple of points of bonus get hidden under your various other bonuses, but hey, it's a couple extra points of AC on the cheap if you can mitigate the penalties. Medium armor outside mithral breastplates doesn't even have that going for it, though.

raith0

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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #27 on: January 08, 2011, 11:52:04 AM »
I have been working on creating my own game and in so have been studing and playing a lot of different systems over the course of the last year or two finding things i liked and things i didnt like.  the biggest thing i have noticed in every game i have played or read the rules for is this.  Heavier armor is either goddly or worthless or becomes worthless.  

I am currently working out a way to make Heavy Armors good but not brokenstupidgood without making light armors worthless.  one of the ideas i am conisdering that might transfer over into DnD some how is to allow you to "train off" the speed penalty and max dex bonus.  making it a skill or a combination of tumble ranks and a feat or two (tho i dont like the feat tax) may be able to do that.  

maybe lowerer the Prereqs for Armor specialization to something attainable by a fighter at 6th level or so and allow them to remove the speed penalty and if they have more ranks in tumble than the armor check penalty they can aply thier full dex mod no matter how high.  This allows for medium and heavy armors to be more usefull and may help AC matter a little longer than it had before.  

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Di Bastet

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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #28 on: January 08, 2011, 12:49:37 PM »
We use class defense bonus, so classes with heavy armor gives more ac than classes with less armor. Also armor gives DR/- equal to half it's base AC (medium is +1 and heavy is +2 AC than the basic PHB versions), and gives "damage conversion" turning lethal to non-lethal equal to the other half.

So, pretty much people who can use armor want to use armor because since they have the AC they can very well get some Dr. The one's without heavier armors try to improve their DR as much as they can...

It's true that me and my players had to rework much of the system, but at least armor shine now.

But in core, without UA rules and such, well, if you don't have the DEX, why not use a heavier armor? It's not every char in every game that can afford a mithril full plate, and most that can afford and already use a full plate won't really care to have one. Why would I? I don't care about DEX anyway. After all there are many things heavy-armor guy needs to buy!

PlzBreakMyCampaign

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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #29 on: January 09, 2011, 12:55:13 AM »
Since the dastana and chahar-aina aren't explicitly stackable with all armor that counts as light, this thread hasn't shown a light armor that reaches the same AC.

Perhaps I am missing a way to, say, have mithral breastplate (or medium armor with 1 better AC) work with the dastana and chahar-aina combo.
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Littha

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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #30 on: January 09, 2011, 03:00:57 AM »
highly sweet Dragonscale Husk ACF in Dragon Magic. 

You mean the worst written ACF in existence? the one that stops you receiving other AC bonuses from any source and doesn't increase if you PRC out of your base class?

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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #31 on: January 09, 2011, 03:25:18 AM »
highly sweet Dragonscale Husk ACF in Dragon Magic. 

You mean the worst written ACF in existence? the one that stops you receiving other AC bonuses from any source and doesn't increase if you PRC out of your base class?
I had to go and actually re-read the ACF when I read that post, because I remembered it sucking so hardcore that I just turned the page.  Upon a second reading, the terrible writing of the feature actually has some pretty hardcore benefits, too.

For example, even though you can't wear armor with it, it's not an "armor" bonus to AC.  It's, in fact, a completely untyped bonus to AC, which means that it applies to touch AC and can be stacked with spells or items that grant armor bonuses to AC without being armor.  That's where the second part comes in: it doesn't stack with feats, racial traits, or special abilities, but it can stack with spells and magic items, so a level 1 Fighter under the effects of his Dragonscale Husk and a Mage Armor spell has an AC of 20, with a touch AC of 16.

As for advancement, all classes that grant heavy armor proficiency stack for the AC bonus, and a lot of PrCs do grant proficiencies.

That said, all this puts it into the "abusable" column, as opposed anything particularly godly.

Littha

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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #32 on: January 09, 2011, 03:34:03 AM »
By a lot of PrCs you obviously mean nearly none grant proficiencies...

 :lol

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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #33 on: January 09, 2011, 05:02:42 AM »
A random thought occured to me...... The wording in the description of both Dastana and Chahar-Aina both states " Dastana/Chahar-Aina can be worn over certain other types of armor to provide an additional armor bonus that stacks with both the foundation armor and any shield worn."

So lets say I have a cleric wearing a chain shirt, dastana, a chahar-aina, and using a heavy steel shield.
If I casted Magic Vestment on each piece of armor, would they all stack?

(Chain Shirt- +4 armor bonus AC)+(Heavy Steel Shield- +2 shield bonus to AC)+(Dastana +1 stackable armor bonus AC)+(Chahar-Aina- +1 stackable armor bonus to AC)

So as a 20th level cleric would I get to add a +5 enhancement bonus to all of them? Normally bonuses of the same type don't stack, but armor and shield bonuses do so our chain shirt and steel shield would stack. Now since Dastana and Chahar-Aina say they stack with other armor/shield bonuses would that mean we could enhance them as well? I'm quite keen on the idea of gaining a +20 bonus to my AC for the cost of 4 level 3 spells.
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JaronK

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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #34 on: January 09, 2011, 05:10:11 AM »
A random thought occured to me...... The wording in the description of both Dastana and Chahar-Aina both states " Dastana/Chahar-Aina can be worn over certain other types of armor to provide an additional armor bonus that stacks with both the foundation armor and any shield worn."

So lets say I have a cleric wearing a chain shirt, dastana, a chahar-aina, and using a heavy steel shield.
If I casted Magic Vestment on each piece of armor, would they all stack?

No.  Dastanas explicitly don't stack that way, so if you have a +5 Chain Shirt and a +3 Dastana you'd get a total of +10 AC (+9 from the shirt, 1 from the Dastana, the +3 is ignored).  Chahar-Ainas implicitly don't, so that won't do anything either.  Basically, enchantments on the extras should be kept to +1, and then spent on abilities (like Heavy Fortification, since a +5 Chain Shirt and a pair of +1 Heavy Fortification Dastanas are much cheaper than a +5 Chain Shirt of Heavy Fortification).

JaronK

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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #35 on: January 09, 2011, 05:41:49 AM »
Thanks for the clarification. Indeed it is much easier to acquire a set of relatively cheap items that work well as a whole than one expensive item that has everything on it.
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GawainBS

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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #36 on: January 09, 2011, 07:25:14 AM »
Where can I find that slotless item that does away with the Heavy Armour speed penalty? And which Psy feat make armour into a Deflection bonus?

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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #37 on: January 09, 2011, 08:08:14 AM »
Tooth of Savnok, Tome of Magic

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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #38 on: January 09, 2011, 08:15:23 AM »
By a lot of PrCs you obviously mean nearly none grant proficiencies...

 :lol
Well, whatever.  A one-level dip for a +6 untyped bonus to AC + something else is better than a kick in the pants.

GawainBS

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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #39 on: January 09, 2011, 08:58:36 AM »
Tooth of Savnok, Tome of Magic

Thanks! And that Psionic feat?