Author Topic: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?  (Read 100491 times)

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X-Codes

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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #180 on: January 16, 2011, 10:02:08 AM »
Sunic, you fail to realize that the only difference between you and BrokeAndDrive is brevity.

skydragonknight

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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #181 on: January 16, 2011, 10:42:30 AM »
Sunic, you fail to realize that the only difference between you and BrokeAndDrive is brevity.

Sunic doesn't wear boxers?
It always seems like the barrels around here have something in them.

Sunic_Flames

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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #182 on: January 16, 2011, 12:22:29 PM »
Sunic, you fail to realize that the only difference between you and BrokeAndDrive is brevity.

Sunic doesn't wear boxers?

I loled.

And to X-Codes - that's only true if you're an idiot. If you are not an idiot, you know better.
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[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

wotmaniac

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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #183 on: January 16, 2011, 01:40:38 PM »
BAB is quite a meaningless stat.
um .... Power Attack?  attacks per round?
(there's dozens of things restricted to BAB; but those seem the most obvious and useful)


I am a complete dumbfuck who not only says the same shit over and over, but does so by having my cat dance on my 4chan keyboard to spew out random, long chains of insults.
a bunch of seemingly auto-biographical rambling. 
I am completely oblivious to just how silly I sound, seeing as I constantly attack people for the same shit I do all the time.
seriously dude -- do you even pay attention to what you write?  are you really that delusional?  ... or just that pathetic?
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« Last Edit: January 16, 2011, 01:42:59 PM by wotmaniac »

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snakeman830

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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #184 on: January 16, 2011, 01:56:25 PM »
There is a difference between Sunic and whoever he's bashing.

Sunic is usually right.  Not always, but usually.
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veekie

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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #185 on: January 16, 2011, 03:08:29 PM »
There is a difference between Sunic and whoever he's bashing.

Sunic is usually right.  Not always, but usually.
Naw, he has a point, but after all the exaggeration and bypassing logical analysis for statements of fact, he is in fact indistinguishable from the same people he smites.
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Sunic_Flames

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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #186 on: January 16, 2011, 03:37:59 PM »
BAB is quite a meaningless stat.
um .... Power Attack?  attacks per round?
(there's dozens of things restricted to BAB; but those seem the most obvious and useful)

Because it's not possible to have a high BAB and 9th level spells? Because a 4th level spell doesn't grant full BAB?

Attacking at -10 and especially -15 is quite irrelevant, this is why BAB fails, as it becomes just a to hit bonus, and those are easy to get. For example, Mr. 55 Str War Troll at level 13 has a +32 to hit just from BAB, Draconic Polymorph, and Bite of the Werebear. Not counting all the other buffs that are possible. Or just Wraithstrike.
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IP proofing and avoiding being CAPed OR - how to make characters relevant in the long term.

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[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

X-Codes

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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #187 on: January 16, 2011, 05:09:15 PM »
BAB is quite a meaningless stat.
um .... Power Attack?  attacks per round?
(there's dozens of things restricted to BAB; but those seem the most obvious and useful)

Because it's not possible to have a high BAB and 9th level spells? Because a 4th level spell doesn't grant full BAB?

Attacking at -10 and especially -15 is quite irrelevant, this is why BAB fails, as it becomes just a to hit bonus, and those are easy to get. For example, Mr. 55 Str War Troll at level 13 has a +32 to hit just from BAB, Draconic Polymorph, and Bite of the Werebear. Not counting all the other buffs that are possible. Or just Wraithstrike.
Fail.  This is why you're an idiot, Sunic.  It's been explained to you 10 different times in 5 different ways, nevermind the fact that you and the few people left who agree with you about AC not mattering keep propping up Wraithstrike for some reason.

Sure, he has 2 natural attacks that hit for d8+22, or maybe two attacks with an actual weapon that deal d6+33 and a bite that deals d6+11... A level 13 fighter with just regular Polymorph would have 3 attacks doing at least 3d6+20ish depending on his gear and a comparable attack bonus, plus the bite doing d6+5, and then all would benefit from Power Attack.  If he power attacks for -5 then that's 3 attacks with a large Greatsword doing 3d6+30 and a bite dealing d6+10.  Depending on the fight, his gear selection, and his feat selection, this damage could be MUCH GREATER (FBs would be especially scary), especially on a charge, and it's really not going to be worse at any point.

In other words, that fighter makes better use of your 4th-level Polymorph than your Wizard does of his 5th-level Draconic Polymorph and his 7th-level Bite of the Werebear, plus your Wizard would be able to stand back and cast a 7th-level spell that's actually, you know, GOOD.

Barbarossa

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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #188 on: January 16, 2011, 06:44:36 PM »
Yes, we know you fail at life, the universe, and everything.
We? It sounds like it's just you.

Oh and Hi Welcome Barbarossa.
Thanks for the welcome. You yourself are also welcome, though annoying.

Base Attack Bonus is essential for something other than basic combat, if you recall. Many prestige classes require a minimum base attack bonus, and Wraithstrike will not qualify you for those.

skydragonknight

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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #189 on: January 16, 2011, 07:20:11 PM »
The important distinction here is are we taking about generic Wizards casting (Draconic) Polymorph or are we talking about Gishes?

Gish > Non-caster Melee > Generic Wizard as far as buffing goes, because while a lot of the best buffs are Personal, unless a Wizard chooses PrCs and feats for melee combat then they lack the synergy between having the numbers to do things right and having the options to even do things in melee to begin with.

Would you rather have Mr. God Wizard turn himself into a 12-headed hydra with Draconic Polymorph or would you rather turn Mr. Robilar's Gambit into a 10-headed Hydra with Polymorph? I would do the latter, since there's better synergy.
It always seems like the barrels around here have something in them.

X-Codes

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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #190 on: January 16, 2011, 07:35:37 PM »
The important distinction here is are we taking about generic Wizards casting (Draconic) Polymorph or are we talking about Gishes?

Gish > Non-caster Melee > Generic Wizard as far as buffing goes, because while a lot of the best buffs are Personal, unless a Wizard chooses PrCs and feats for melee combat then they lack the synergy between having the numbers to do things right and having the options to even do things in melee to begin with.

Would you rather have Mr. God Wizard turn himself into a 12-headed hydra with Draconic Polymorph or would you rather turn Mr. Robilar's Gambit into a 10-headed Hydra with Polymorph? I would do the latter, since there's better synergy.

Sunic's Wizard wasn't a gish, it only had +6 BAB.  If you make a Gish, then that's a different story to be sure, but Gishes sacrifice spellcasting and supporting feats for spellcasting to some extent to function better as a fighter with personal buffs, and overall they're better than a fighter.  In a party, however, I'm tempted to say that 1 GOD Wizard + 1 fighter > 2 gishes.  Not by much to be sure, but by enough to matter.  An argument can be made that 1 GOD Wizard + 1 gish > 1 GOD Wizard + 1 fighter, but I'm not nearly as certain that said difference is as noticeable (barring the GOD Wizard being an Incantatrix, which just makes *all* the spellcasters in a party stupid awesome at everything).  The buffs the fighter will get will be almost as good as the buffs the gish gets, the fighter can still invest a little bit more into his combat feats and BAB while the gish still loses out a little in the small, always-on numbers, and there's nothing particularly awesome that neither the gish nor the fighter can do that the GOD Wizard can't.  I suppose the big advantage would be a greater endurance when it comes to utility spells per day.

Bauglir

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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #191 on: January 16, 2011, 08:07:02 PM »
Also, I think all our arguments here are including "It is given that somebody in the party wants to play a fighter-type", and thus "Play a caster or gish instead" is an invalid argument.
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Benly

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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #192 on: January 16, 2011, 08:20:07 PM »
The difference between Sunic and other trolls is his years of experience on the underground pro D&D circuit. You can't understand him until you've been exposed to the pressures of being truly pro. When you're pro, you don't have to make sense or be right, because you're pro.

weenog

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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #193 on: January 16, 2011, 08:25:11 PM »
Nah, the difference between Sunic and other trolls is he used to have something valuable to say, and say it, and then get fed up and flip out now and then.  Now he just rides on people's memories of him having been right before, while contributing nothing and whining about everything.  Nothing inherently wrong with being acerbic, but having been clever and witty before doesn't counterbalance being a petty douchebag now.
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dark_samuari

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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #194 on: January 16, 2011, 08:37:01 PM »
Sometimes I like to have my characters wear heavy armor because it makes them look cool.

Is that a valid point?

Can my warrior not dream to look like Darth Vader?

Such woe... Such pathos...

Havok4

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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #195 on: January 16, 2011, 08:54:44 PM »
Sometimes I like to have my characters wear heavy armor because it makes them look cool.

Is that a valid point?

Can my warrior not dream to look like Darth Vader?

Such woe... Such pathos...

Which is my favorite part of the Bone Knight actually.

oslecamo

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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #196 on: January 16, 2011, 09:08:44 PM »
When you're pro, you don't have to make sense or be right, because you're pro.

Not exactly. When you're a pro you're allowed to don't make sense and be wrong on other stuff than your field of expertise. When you start being wrong on the field that you're suposed to be a pro at, then you're simply not a pro anymore.

That's why all true pros know how important is to keep their skills honed and sharp, no matter how good they're at it. Reputation and past deeds alone won't keep you a pro.

Now as for medium/heavy armor, if you have low-medium Dex and don't care about skills and speed (you're using a mount for example, or are a dwarf), it's a cheap way of boosting your AC as far as I care.

dark_samuari

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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #197 on: January 16, 2011, 09:15:03 PM »
Sometimes I like to have my characters wear heavy armor because it makes them look cool.

Is that a valid point?

Can my warrior not dream to look like Darth Vader?

Such woe... Such pathos...

Which is my favorite part of the Bone Knight actually.

My favorite part of the Bone Knight is the art depicting them.

It just screams, "Jesus Fucking Christ..."

Benly

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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #198 on: January 16, 2011, 09:52:09 PM »
When you're pro, you don't have to make sense or be right, because you're pro.

Not exactly. When you're a pro you're allowed to don't make sense and be wrong on other stuff than your field of expertise. When you start being wrong on the field that you're suposed to be a pro at, then you're simply not a pro anymore.

That's why all true pros know how important is to keep their skills honed and sharp, no matter how good they're at it. Reputation and past deeds alone won't keep you a pro.

Now as for medium/heavy armor, if you have low-medium Dex and don't care about skills and speed (you're using a mount for example, or are a dwarf), it's a cheap way of boosting your AC as far as I care.

Clearly you don't understand just how pro Sunic is. He is, like, double pro. We can only wish we were as pro as Sunic but since I have never actually discovered a way to be invited to the underground professional D&D leagues I can only satisfy myself by being amateur.

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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #199 on: January 17, 2011, 04:10:26 AM »
When you're pro, you don't have to make sense or be right, because you're pro.

Not exactly. When you're a pro you're allowed to don't make sense and be wrong on other stuff than your field of expertise. When you start being wrong on the field that you're suposed to be a pro at, then you're simply not a pro anymore.

That's why all true pros know how important is to keep their skills honed and sharp, no matter how good they're at it. Reputation and past deeds alone won't keep you a pro.

Now as for medium/heavy armor, if you have low-medium Dex and don't care about skills and speed (you're using a mount for example, or are a dwarf), it's a cheap way of boosting your AC as far as I care.

Clearly you don't understand just how pro Sunic is. He is, like, double pro. We can only wish we were as pro as Sunic but since I have never actually discovered a way to be invited to the underground professional D&D leagues I can only satisfy myself by being amateur.
Yeah, well, I'd rather play DnD with hookers instead.

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