Author Topic: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?  (Read 98142 times)

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X-Codes

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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #140 on: January 14, 2011, 05:36:48 AM »
Ah, that.  I never read that thread because of how strange the concept itself sounded.

Bauglir

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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #141 on: January 14, 2011, 10:42:23 AM »
The above build should never cast Divine Power.
So you end up stuck in an endless loop, unable to act, forever.

In retrospect, much like Keanu Reeves.

snakeman830

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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #142 on: January 14, 2011, 11:30:19 AM »
The above build should never cast Divine Power.
Because it would actually be a debuff :p

Just reminding you: the Lesser Draconic Rite is not a feat.  It's something that any Kobold can get for 100gp and 1hp.
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Sunic_Flames

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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #143 on: January 14, 2011, 11:55:32 AM »
I'm noticing a lot of people assuming a DRUID has nothing better to do than prop up a FIGHTER. Am I still on BG?
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The "Fighter" (note that it doesn't, specifically, have to be a Fighter, it can also be a Knight, Duskblade, Crusader, Warblade...) can buy a Pearl of Power II for 4k and give it to the druid (or Archivist or Spirit Shaman or Ranger or anyone with the Plant domain) and get level-appropriate enhancement bonuses to Natural Armor for the remainder of their career, and it costs said caster NOTHING.  In fact, if said "Fighter" eats it later in their career, the caster likely winds up with a free 2nd-level slot.

Also note that not everyone is a douchebag like you, and the Druid might be out there buffing his allies instead of himself, given how it's really not that hard for a druid to rock out with Wild Shape, even unbuffed.

Wait, what level were we talking about again? Like 5? 7?

And because as we all know, 50-70 minutes = the whole day.

And if there's a DRUID in the party, melee is well taken care of.

^^
Yeah, a Fighter is like an animal companion, except it comes with free gear.
Just toss a few buffs on top, and he even pays for them himself.

He costs you gear and XP. Your pussy (or bitch, or whatever other humorous double entredre could be used to describe your animal companion) does not.

Guys, we have to remember that most of the time D&D is PvE not PvP. If you are a kind soul then you want everyone to have fun, so casters will spend a few buffs to help out the spell-deprived, even if that's not the most optimal thing. If using your spells as buffs on the beatsticks still helps you win fights even if it isn't as efficient as a SoD then it's not a waste.
Actually, it is optimal for the casters to throw their buffs on the non-casters when possible for a few reasons:

1) Action Economy.  The beatsticks are going to go right into the fray while the casters take their time buffing.  If the buffs go onto the beatsticks instead of the casters, then their effects are going to be applied a few rounds earlier.

2) Chassis.  No matter what, the Fighter has more HP, BAB, and Strength than the Wizard, and if the Wizard is using their XP as a resource then he might even have an extra HD or two.  What's more, the Fighter's feats and abilities are going to be geared towards combat as opposed to the Wizard's being geared towards spellcasting.  As a result of this, it's always going to be more effective throwing Haste, Polymorph, and Greater Heroism on the Fighter than it will on the Wizard (although with Haste you don't even have to choose anymore).

3) Being God.  While bending the time-space continuum over and pounding it until it cries for mercy is certainly doable in melee, it's much easier and safer to do so while out of the fray.  As such, you're just not going to use most of your buffs yourself, but rather you'd be much better off standing back, keeping an eye on the big picture, and then using this vantage point to summon Cuthulu down in just the right spot to win the game.

Action Economy doesn't matter because you aren't buffing in combat.

HP are gone in two rounds tops without real defenses. One class has them, one does not.

BAB is a quite meaningless stat, even if you ignore that a casting class can still get plenty of it.

Polymorph sets your Str to a certain value, regardless of what it actually is. So best case is it makes no difference who you throw it on. But making 8 Str 39 does more than making 25 Str 39.

And GH just isn't worth casting at all, on anyone.
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snakeman830

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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #144 on: January 14, 2011, 12:37:09 PM »
And if there's a DRUID in the party, melee is well taken care of.

I have to say that my last D&D session, this became quite apparent.  I'm playing a Goliath Warblade/Bloodstorm Blade and one my my party members is a dwarf druid.  Last night, his hp total surpassed my own (although him having gotten an 18 on his roll for Con and me getting a 14 isn't helping much) and he can spend all day in animal form.  However, I don't mind because oddly enough, we basically swapped battlefield positions in one level.  Now he's on the front lines and I'm between foes and our Sorcerer, using Lightning Ricochet and Knock Back + Shock Trooper to keep the foes at bay.  When I need to charge in to the front, I can now dish out significant damage as I do so, relying on Wall of Blades to protect me that round.  So, even though I am no longer the primary melee, I still have a good niche.

My AC is also in the pits because my best sword (I have two others) gives me -2 AC and if I go for pure damage, Punishing Stance kicks in for another penalty.  I only have an AC of 17 to start.
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Sunic_Flames

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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #145 on: January 14, 2011, 01:16:02 PM »
Not to mention the game I am playing the Hi Welcome build in. Though something tells me that one will never actually get to the point where we start doing things as a group of PCs.
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Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.

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[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #146 on: January 14, 2011, 01:53:21 PM »
The above build should never cast Divine Power.
Because it would actually be a debuff :p

Just reminding you: the Lesser Draconic Rite is not a feat.  It's something that any Kobold can get for 100gp and 1hp.
Well, yeah. It's the draconic reservoir feat you need to take for the greater rite.  whatever.
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PlzBreakMyCampaign

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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #147 on: January 14, 2011, 06:32:21 PM »
Go all the way, and get Thaalud stone armor(+12 AC).  From Anuroch, Empire of Shade, IIRC.
Didn't see it in the appendix. Page?
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An interesting read, nice to see a civil discussion
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The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #148 on: January 14, 2011, 07:38:24 PM »
Go all the way, and get Thaalud stone armor(+12 AC).  From Anuroch, Empire of Shade, IIRC.
Didn't see it in the appendix. Page?
108.
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X-Codes

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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #149 on: January 14, 2011, 10:33:37 PM »
Wait, what level were we talking about again? Like 5? 7?

And because as we all know, 50-70 minutes = the whole day.

And if there's a DRUID in the party, melee is well taken care of.
A battle tends to last half a minute minute, tops.  Therefore Barkskin can, in theory, last 100-140 battles.  How many encounters is a group supposed to have on a given day, again?  I remember you bitching excessively about that on another thread.

He costs you gear and XP. Your pussy (or bitch, or whatever other humorous double entredre could be used to describe your animal companion) does not.
It's gear and XP you would never get in the first place, because there'd still be a player at the table playing something.

Action Economy doesn't matter because you aren't buffing in combat.
What, you win every initiative roll and never get ambushed?  The DM plays the monsters retarded and has them continue circle-jerking each other while your spellcasters start shouting out nonsense before ambushing them?  Most buffs have minutes of duration or less.

HP are gone in two rounds tops without real defenses. One class has them, one does not.
The enemy only able to hit you on a roll of 15 or better is better than being able to hit you on a 2 or better with a 50% miss chance.

BAB is a quite meaningless stat, even if you ignore that a casting class can still get plenty of it.
BAB means the Fighters hit better than the Wizards, period.

Polymorph sets your Str to a certain value, regardless of what it actually is. So best case is it makes no difference who you throw it on. But making 8 Str 39 does more than making 25 Str 39.
You're bitching about Barkskin lasting 50-70 minutes, and yet come back and say that Fighters suck because of Polymorph?  Polymorph's duration is 1 minute/level.  I don't care how many of them you have prepared, they're not lasting all day, either.  Hi Fucking Welcome

And GH just isn't worth casting at all, on anyone.
Immunity to fear.  Hi Welcome

Runestar

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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #150 on: January 15, 2011, 02:13:45 AM »
Quote
Immunity to fear.  Hi Welcome

Which is typically covered by heroes' feast (benefiting the whole party, as well as poison immunity) for a longer period of time.  :)
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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #151 on: January 15, 2011, 04:44:33 AM »
Quote
Immunity to fear.  Hi Welcome

Which is typically covered by heroes' feast (benefiting the whole party, as well as poison immunity) for a longer period of time.  :)
Meh, fine.  I was annoyed by the whole Barkskin is too short to be useful, but Polymorph makes Fighters suck argument.

Endarire

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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #152 on: January 15, 2011, 05:49:39 AM »
Polymorph will likely show up the Fighter or someone who relies almost exclusively on autoattacking.  Suddenly turning into an X-headed (pyro/cryo)hydra or some Big Nasty can easily end a fight.

Now you need more polymorph to do this all day.  If you can (like draconic polymorph + Incantatrix + Persist), then so be it.
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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #153 on: January 15, 2011, 06:18:27 AM »
Polymorph will likely show up the Fighter or someone who relies almost exclusively on autoattacking.  Suddenly turning into an X-headed (pyro/cryo)hydra or some Big Nasty can easily end a fight.

Now you need more polymorph to do this all day.  If you can (like draconic polymorph + Incantatrix + Persist), then so be it.
I'm not saying it won't, but the specific argument that Barkskin is a waste of effort because of it's short duration simultaneously combined with an argument that Polymorph makes Fighters obsolete (hint: it doesn't, Polymorph the Fighter instead, he'll have more HP and hit better) is ridiculous.

Persistent Draconic Polymorph is, however, pretty ridiculous.  That and a battery of other awesome personal-range buffs is a pretty damn big problem with spellcasters.  If said buffs were touch-range, then I think we would have a use for melee-types at high levels despite the fact that they're not inverting reality.

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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #154 on: January 15, 2011, 06:22:19 AM »
How does the fighter get more HP? He might regain some HP, but his total HP count shouldn't change.

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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #155 on: January 15, 2011, 06:28:38 AM »
How does the fighter get more HP? He might regain some HP, but his total HP count shouldn't change.

Higher HD, likely higher Con, and probably some manner of Con-boosting ability like Rage.  This all can easily add up to an extra 6-7 HP per HD relative to a Wizard.

I know HP isn't granted by Polymorph, but the Fighter has substantially more to begin with.

skydragonknight

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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #156 on: January 15, 2011, 07:07:22 AM »
How does the fighter get more HP? He might regain some HP, but his total HP count shouldn't change.

Higher HD, likely higher Con, and probably some manner of Con-boosting ability like Rage.  This all can easily add up to an extra 6-7 HP per HD relative to a Wizard.

I know HP isn't granted by Polymorph, but the Fighter has substantially more to begin with.

Also BAB and feats like Power Attack, which allows them to make the best use of the form's high Strength score. Plus, they can be in melee instead of you, which means they can be the bait while you sit back and toss spells at leisure. What's wrong with that?
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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #157 on: January 15, 2011, 07:31:02 AM »
How does the fighter get more HP? He might regain some HP, but his total HP count shouldn't change.

Higher HD, likely higher Con, and probably some manner of Con-boosting ability like Rage.  This all can easily add up to an extra 6-7 HP per HD relative to a Wizard.

I know HP isn't granted by Polymorph, but the Fighter has substantially more to begin with.

Also BAB and feats like Power Attack, which allows them to make the best use of the form's high Strength score. Plus, they can be in melee instead of you, which means they can be the bait while you sit back and toss spells at leisure. What's wrong with that?
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Sunic_Flames

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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #158 on: January 15, 2011, 11:06:25 AM »
Wait, what level were we talking about again? Like 5? 7?

And because as we all know, 50-70 minutes = the whole day.

And if there's a DRUID in the party, melee is well taken care of.
A battle tends to last half a minute minute, tops.  Therefore Barkskin can, in theory, last 100-140 battles.  How many encounters is a group supposed to have on a given day, again?  I remember you bitching excessively about that on another thread.

It's shorter than that. The problem is the time between fights. Which there are ways around, but not if everyone is too busy propping up the gimp to be useful themselves.

Quote
It's gear and XP you would never get in the first place, because there'd still be a player at the table playing something.

And the alternatives would earn their keep.

Quote
What, you win every initiative roll and never get ambushed?  The DM plays the monsters retarded and has them continue circle-jerking each other while your spellcasters start shouting out nonsense before ambushing them?  Most buffs have minutes of duration or less.

If you can help it, yes you win every init roll. But either way you do not buff in combat, as that's actions not spent winning the fight. Once you force the enemy to play defense, you win. Except that it is you playing defense. Guess what that means?

Quote
The enemy only able to hit you on a roll of 15 or better is better than being able to hit you on a 2 or better with a 50% miss chance.

Now, if only you could actually do that. But since that requires AC of 25 at 5, 40-45 at 10, 55-60 at 15, and 75 at 20 you cannot. At least not without Turtle Fail, and likely even with it. Also, that 50% miss chance helps with other things. The AC does not.

Quote
BAB means the Fighters hit better than the Wizards, period.

Hi Welcome

Try again, this time with less fail.

Quote
You're bitching about Barkskin lasting 50-70 minutes, and yet come back and say that Fighters suck because of Polymorph?  Polymorph's duration is 1 minute/level.  I don't care how many of them you have prepared, they're not lasting all day, either.  Hi Fucking Welcome

No you mouth breathing fuckwit, I am pointing out that it does not matter who you cast Polymorph on since it is stat replacement, not stat buffing. And I actually used 39 as the example, which means Draconic Polymorph. What I forgot to mention is that since Draconic Polymorph is self only, the actual choice is between giving himself a 39 Str instead of 8, or giving the Fighter a 31 Str instead of... 25...

Also, mouth breathing fuckwit. The tactics that let you use short duration buffs to your advantage? They work fine when the group had a solid strategy. Make the gimp suck less is not solid strategy.

Did I mention Draconic Polymorph is a valid Persist target? So if you actually care about beatsticking, and you really shouldn't you have Str 39 (and Con 33), not counting items and other spells all day.

And GH just isn't worth casting at all, on anyone.
Immunity to fear.  Hi Welcome
[/quote]

Heroes' Feast. Same spell level, affects the entire party, lasts far longer, and also does other things.

Hi Welcome

How does the fighter get more HP? He might regain some HP, but his total HP count shouldn't change.

Higher HD, likely higher Con, and probably some manner of Con-boosting ability like Rage.  This all can easily add up to an extra 6-7 HP per HD relative to a Wizard.

I know HP isn't granted by Polymorph, but the Fighter has substantially more to begin with.

Higher HD makes a marginal difference, and not a large one, unless you are using max HP houserules.
His Con is the same or lower. More likely the latter, due to being MAD, not being able to craft, and having a lot more gear needs. Rage deaths do not help the beatstick's case.

Now if by 6-7 you actually mean more like 0-1 you are correct. Because the base difference is 3 HP/level, and then you remember the Wizard is SAD and therefore has a better Con, is able to craft and therefore has a better Con item, and doesn't need too many other items so he has a better Con item.

Even without throwing in things like Wraithstrike, Heroics (for those feats you think are so awesome, but really aren't), Bite of the Werebear (lol 55 Str), or all the other things that shove it to beatsticks, beatsticks just aren't that good, so they're showed up very very easily by real classes, who can casually pull off kiddie shit like beatsticking, and do things that actually matter.
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There is no greater contribution than Hi Welcome.

Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.

IP proofing and avoiding being CAPed OR - how to make characters relevant in the long term.

Friends don't let friends be Short Bus Hobos.

[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

raith0

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Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #159 on: January 15, 2011, 12:04:37 PM »
So i know this is a debate about the point of non light armors.  and if they succeed at that point.  but the underliying problem at why they dont is you can/have to do alot with magic.  either casting or using items to keep up. 

and to have the numbers listed by sunic no matter how accurate they are.  ( granted i believe they are close to being correct) you have to use spells.  i have had characters that were very with defense but also had average or better offense for the level in question as well.  granted they didnt have the super AC of a pure defense build or the offense of a pure offensive build but they could compete with like level challanges and even solo most.  even solo an encounter a bit over there head.  granted all of them were different types of gish builds but they were at least melee heavy builds in one way or another.