Author Topic: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?  (Read 101481 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

X-Codes

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 3941
Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #120 on: January 13, 2011, 03:49:03 PM »
The problem with AC is that a +1 to attack renders a +1 to AC useless (and let's not talk about nat 20s), whereas two 20% miss chances and a 50% miss chance require so much more to overcome.
And a +1 to AC likewise renders a +1 to attack useless, whereas two 20% miss chances and a 50% miss chance aren't that easy to obtain on a character.

Lycanthromancer

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 4003
    • Email
Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #121 on: January 13, 2011, 03:52:57 PM »
The problem with AC is that a +1 to attack renders a +1 to AC useless (and let's not talk about nat 20s), whereas two 20% miss chances and a 50% miss chance require so much more to overcome.
And a +1 to AC likewise renders a +1 to attack useless, whereas two 20% miss chances and a 50% miss chance aren't that easy to obtain on a character.
Not for a spellcaster they aren't. Mirror image (yeah, not technically a miss chance, but there's still only a 1-in-X chance of hitting you) plus blink plus, say, concealing amorpha. Spell-to-power erudites for the win.
[spoiler]Masculine men like masculine things. Masculine men are masculine. Therefore, liking masculine men is masculine.

I dare anyone to find a hole in that logic.
______________________________________
[/spoiler]I'm a writer. These are my stories. Some are even SFW! (Warning: Mostly Gay.)
My awesome poster collection. (Warning, some are NSFW.)
Agita's awesome poster collection.
[spoiler]
+1 Lycanthromancer
Which book is Lycanthromancer in?
Lyca ... is in the book. Yes he is.
 :D
shit.. concerning psionics optimization, lycan IS the book
[/spoiler]

Sunic_Flames

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 4782
  • The Crusader of Logic.
Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #122 on: January 13, 2011, 03:54:01 PM »
I'm noticing a lot of people assuming a DRUID has nothing better to do than prop up a FIGHTER. Am I still on BG?
Smiting Imbeciles since 1985.

If you hear this music, run.

And don't forget:


There is no greater contribution than Hi Welcome.

Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.

IP proofing and avoiding being CAPed OR - how to make characters relevant in the long term.

Friends don't let friends be Short Bus Hobos.

[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

Lycanthromancer

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 4003
    • Email
Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #123 on: January 13, 2011, 03:55:23 PM »
I'm noticing a lot of people assuming a DRUID has nothing better to do than prop up a FIGHTER. Am I still on BG?
I don't know WHAT you're hyped up on.

But the fighter might just be useful if the druid turns him into a dire bear or something.
[spoiler]Masculine men like masculine things. Masculine men are masculine. Therefore, liking masculine men is masculine.

I dare anyone to find a hole in that logic.
______________________________________
[/spoiler]I'm a writer. These are my stories. Some are even SFW! (Warning: Mostly Gay.)
My awesome poster collection. (Warning, some are NSFW.)
Agita's awesome poster collection.
[spoiler]
+1 Lycanthromancer
Which book is Lycanthromancer in?
Lyca ... is in the book. Yes he is.
 :D
shit.. concerning psionics optimization, lycan IS the book
[/spoiler]

Bloody Initiate

  • King Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 798
    • Email
Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #124 on: January 13, 2011, 03:58:52 PM »
The problem with AC is that a +1 to attack renders a +1 to AC useless (and let's not talk about nat 20s), whereas two 20% miss chances and a 50% miss chance require so much more to overcome.
And a +1 to AC likewise renders a +1 to attack useless, whereas two 20% miss chances and a 50% miss chance aren't that easy to obtain on a character.

They're not that hard, you just have to focus on them to find them.

The problem is that Wizards did everything in such a way that you are tricked into focusing on AC (Because ways to increase it ARE much more numerous). Then they made monsters that completely eclipse it.

When I first came to BG I saw a bunch of people saying "AC is useless" all over the place and I didn't understand why (I play primarily low-level campaigns). Then I was perusing the Epic Level Handbook for the first time when I saw it: "+99 melee" is the attack bonus for one of the epic constructs. This same thing can be seen in lesser numbers all over the place.

They hand you a shiny set of armor and then sick rust monsters on you. They tell you to get your AC up and then they design things that are SUPPOSED to auto-hit in order to make them seem more menacing. They built the characters and the basis for characters (Clear rules for all actions in melee), and then designed the monsters to trump the characters so that the world would look dangerous.

They hold all martial characters to a strict standard of balance, and make no such effort on casters because "it's magic."

The magic stuff is where they did all their imagining. They did all their rule-making on mundanes.

It's a little maddening really, but I'm getting off-topic.

Either way, Gygax would be proud. Much of the D&D population aren't into casters, so they are routinely assfucked by his game.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2011, 04:07:57 PM by Bloody Initiate »
I don't employ memes. Mass-produced ammunition, even from reputable manufacturers, tends to malfunction on occasion.

Littha

  • Man in Gorilla Suit
  • *****
  • Posts: 2155
    • Email
Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #125 on: January 13, 2011, 05:45:21 PM »
For some reason after reading this thread I want to play a Nymph Battledancer 2/Mystic Wanderer 1/Duskblade 1/Arcane Duelist 2/Monk 1 with Ascetic Mage just so i can have CHA to AC 5 times...

X-Codes

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 3941
Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #126 on: January 13, 2011, 10:40:02 PM »
I'm noticing a lot of people assuming a DRUID has nothing better to do than prop up a FIGHTER. Am I still on BG?
Hi Welcome

The "Fighter" (note that it doesn't, specifically, have to be a Fighter, it can also be a Knight, Duskblade, Crusader, Warblade...) can buy a Pearl of Power II for 4k and give it to the druid (or Archivist or Spirit Shaman or Ranger or anyone with the Plant domain) and get level-appropriate enhancement bonuses to Natural Armor for the remainder of their career, and it costs said caster NOTHING.  In fact, if said "Fighter" eats it later in their career, the caster likely winds up with a free 2nd-level slot.

Also note that not everyone is a douchebag like you, and the Druid might be out there buffing his allies instead of himself, given how it's really not that hard for a druid to rock out with Wild Shape, even unbuffed.

Bauglir

  • Man in Gorilla Suit
  • *****
  • Posts: 2346
  • TriOptimum
Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #127 on: January 14, 2011, 12:31:35 AM »
I'm noticing a lot of people assuming a DRUID has nothing better to do than prop up a FIGHTER. Am I still on BG?

Also, if it's a given that there is a Fighter or whatever in the party, then that is a tool the Druid has to work with. It's not necessarily stupid to make that tool effective. Well, less ineffective. It depends on the specific spells you're using and the slots you have available of that level to determine the relative opportunity costs of saving the slot vs buffing the Fighter-type, but it's definitely not automatically failure.
So you end up stuck in an endless loop, unable to act, forever.

In retrospect, much like Keanu Reeves.

veekie

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 9034
  • WARNING: Homing Miko
Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #128 on: January 14, 2011, 12:38:48 AM »
^^
Yeah, a Fighter is like an animal companion, except it comes with free gear.
Just toss a few buffs on top, and he even pays for them himself.
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."

Bauglir

  • Man in Gorilla Suit
  • *****
  • Posts: 2346
  • TriOptimum
Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #129 on: January 14, 2011, 12:44:12 AM »
^^
Yeah, a Fighter is like an animal companion, except it comes with free gear.
Just toss a few buffs on top, and he even pays for them himself.

That's a good way of thinking of it. And the Druid didn't even need to use a class feature, either! Really, it's a pretty good deal. For the Druid. For the Fighter-type, whose entire character build works out to being an accessory for the Druid, perhaps not so much. Especially since Fighters are about as disposable as animal companions.
So you end up stuck in an endless loop, unable to act, forever.

In retrospect, much like Keanu Reeves.

The_Mad_Linguist

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 8780
  • Simulated Thing
Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #130 on: January 14, 2011, 12:47:27 AM »
But hey, you can always saddle the fighter with +8 LA of templates if he's really underperforming.

I'm sure a celestial anarchic infernal axiomatic fighter will be a great member of your group.

Or at least k_v's group.
Linguist, Mad, Unique, none of these things am I
My custom class: The Priest of the Unseen Host
Planetouched Handbook
Want to improve your character?  Then die.

JaronK

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 4039
Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #131 on: January 14, 2011, 01:00:48 AM »
Especially since Fighters are about as disposable as animal companions.

More so.  When your animal companion dies, you get nothing.  When the Fighter dies, you get a huge amount of free loot!

JaronK

Bozwevial

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 4497
  • Developing a relaxed attitude to danger.
Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #132 on: January 14, 2011, 01:05:04 AM »
So the optimal strategy is to kill the fighter right away in case his loot gets damaged?

juton

  • King Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 809
  • Jack of all trades, master of nothing.
    • Email
Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #133 on: January 14, 2011, 01:42:30 AM »
Guys, we have to remember that most of the time D&D is PvE not PvP. If you are a kind soul then you want everyone to have fun, so casters will spend a few buffs to help out the spell-deprived, even if that's not the most optimal thing. If using your spells as buffs on the beatsticks still helps you win fights even if it isn't as efficient as a SoD then it's not a waste.

JaronK

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 4039
Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #134 on: January 14, 2011, 02:04:47 AM »
So the optimal strategy is to kill the fighter right away in case his loot gets damaged?

Nah, the DM will catch on if you make it look like it was on purpose.

JaronK

X-Codes

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 3941
Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #135 on: January 14, 2011, 02:24:40 AM »
Guys, we have to remember that most of the time D&D is PvE not PvP. If you are a kind soul then you want everyone to have fun, so casters will spend a few buffs to help out the spell-deprived, even if that's not the most optimal thing. If using your spells as buffs on the beatsticks still helps you win fights even if it isn't as efficient as a SoD then it's not a waste.
Actually, it is optimal for the casters to throw their buffs on the non-casters when possible for a few reasons:

1) Action Economy.  The beatsticks are going to go right into the fray while the casters take their time buffing.  If the buffs go onto the beatsticks instead of the casters, then their effects are going to be applied a few rounds earlier.

2) Chassis.  No matter what, the Fighter has more HP, BAB, and Strength than the Wizard, and if the Wizard is using their XP as a resource then he might even have an extra HD or two.  What's more, the Fighter's feats and abilities are going to be geared towards combat as opposed to the Wizard's being geared towards spellcasting.  As a result of this, it's always going to be more effective throwing Haste, Polymorph, and Greater Heroism on the Fighter than it will on the Wizard (although with Haste you don't even have to choose anymore).

3) Being God.  While bending the time-space continuum over and pounding it until it cries for mercy is certainly doable in melee, it's much easier and safer to do so while out of the fray.  As such, you're just not going to use most of your buffs yourself, but rather you'd be much better off standing back, keeping an eye on the big picture, and then using this vantage point to summon Cuthulu down in just the right spot to win the game.

The_Mad_Linguist

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 8780
  • Simulated Thing
Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #136 on: January 14, 2011, 02:33:16 AM »
2) Chassis.  No matter what, the Fighter has more HP, BAB, and Strength than the Wizard,
Barring shenanigans, of course.  With enough shenanigans I'm pretty sure you can win in all three while retaining ninth level spells.
Linguist, Mad, Unique, none of these things am I
My custom class: The Priest of the Unseen Host
Planetouched Handbook
Want to improve your character?  Then die.

X-Codes

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 3941
Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #137 on: January 14, 2011, 02:37:00 AM »
2) Chassis.  No matter what, the Fighter has more HP, BAB, and Strength than the Wizard,
Barring shenanigans, of course.  With enough shenanigans I'm pretty sure you can win in all three while retaining ninth level spells.
Even with shenanigans, you have to start with Wizard (or maybe Bard).  That pretty much automatically puts you behind the Fighter right from the start.

Benly

  • Bi-Curious George
  • ****
  • Posts: 436
    • Email
Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #138 on: January 14, 2011, 03:04:34 AM »
2) Chassis.  No matter what, the Fighter has more HP, BAB, and Strength than the Wizard,
Barring shenanigans, of course.  With enough shenanigans I'm pretty sure you can win in all three while retaining ninth level spells.

But the better your spellcasting, the more strongly #3 applies - the fighter's not going to be doing anything better with his actions, and you can.

The_Mad_Linguist

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 8780
  • Simulated Thing
Re: What is the point of medium and heavy armor?
« Reply #139 on: January 14, 2011, 03:30:18 AM »
2) Chassis.  No matter what, the Fighter has more HP, BAB, and Strength than the Wizard,
Barring shenanigans, of course.  With enough shenanigans I'm pretty sure you can win in all three while retaining ninth level spells.
Even with shenanigans, you have to start with Wizard (or maybe Bard).  That pretty much automatically puts you behind the Fighter right from the start.
Let me put my monkey where my mouth is.

Let's take Meepun, the curious little white dragonspawn ice-dwelling desert* kobold.  Now, meepun hasn't heard of soverign archewhats, so he isn't going to use them.  He's going to use some very rancid (but very RAW) cheese instead.

Build Breakdown
ECL2:Sorc 1 (BAB3) + level of sorc from white dragonspawn.  Feats: Expeditious Dodge, lesser draconic rite, dragonwrought
ECL3:Cleric 1 (BAB9).  ACF everything you can here.
ECL4:Singer Of Concordance 2 (BAB10) (buying off white dragonspawn).  Burn a feat on combat casting.  At some point, pick up iron will via otyugh hole.
ECL5:Dragonslayer 1 (BAB11).  Casting as a fifth level sorc here.
ECL6-11:Abjurant Champion (BAB16).  Pick up greater draconic rite, cast as a twelfth level sorc.  Possibly buyoff more dragonspawn, depending upon which version you're using
ECL12: Spellsword 1 (BAB 17)
ECL13+: Whatever you want, really.  As long as you don't dip excessively, you should be able to keep it up indefinitely


Either that, or artificer + renegade mastermaker + cleric buff abuse.

But yeah.  Shenanigans.  Not something I'd actually use.  :D

*Fun fact: Antarctica is virtually all considered a desert.
Linguist, Mad, Unique, none of these things am I
My custom class: The Priest of the Unseen Host
Planetouched Handbook
Want to improve your character?  Then die.