What makes Clerics uber?

[X-Codes]

Are you taking Zen Archery or other feats and spells into account when making that statement?

Looks like he is taking Zen Archery into account, but no other feats or spells.

By the way, the damage advantage only applies while within 30'.  Cleric archers take PBS purely as a pre-req.

[ninjarabbit]

Yeah I forgot Zen archery, so put it in there somewhere and I'll gladly trade +3 damage (which could easily be less or even the cleric with the advantage with spells like aid, righteous might, and divine favor) for full spellcasting, turn/rebuke undead, and more skill points.

[lans]

Are you taking Zen Archery or other feats and spells into account when making that statement?

There are 2 open feat slots with Zen Archery, and no to other spells. The claim was that a cleric obsoletes the fighter with just divine power. I am challenging that statement and that statement alone.

I guess the claim was actually

One mid-level spell and Clerics make the Fighter obsolete, Another and they surpass them to such a degree that it's silly.

which I took to mean Divine Power and either righteous might or Divine Favor.

Of course, I don't believe he's taking Knowledge Devotion into account.

I took it into account.

[lans]

Are you taking Zen Archery or other feats and spells into account when making that statement?

By the way, the damage advantage only applies while within 30'.  Cleric archers take PBS purely as a pre-req.

I don't think the weapon specialization line has a 30' restriction.

[The_Mad_Linguist]

Anyways

Pretty decent pro-cleric argument

[Shadowhunter]

TML, that comic is awesome

[Solo]

Go Team Cleric!

[veekie]

except he doesn't get those, and it it would still be 1 too high, and his attack would be too low.

Its hard to believe a cleric that does ANY amount of fighting wouldn't have his day long free +X weapon +X Armor and +X shield up all the time though.
And then blow the money that frees up on nightsticks.

[Midnight_v]

  Chasis + Domains choices + every cleric spell ever printed on anygiven day.
So yeah basically since there are domanis in existence that give you access to
any wizard spell, there's a lot of "zilla" in that. Not to mention things like diving power/bite of X and
nighstick buffs.
  The domains just go to freaking crazy town etc. . .

[ninjarabbit]

So have we basically proved that a cleric archer with only divine power is only slightly worse that a fighter who's completely focused on archery.

[Solo]

While still being able to beat things up in melee.

[X-Codes]

While still being able to beat things up in melee.

Likely only if he had the foresight to pick up Intuitive Attack and use a Sling instead of going with the all-out Cleric Archer bit.

[ninjarabbit]

I wouldn't say it's an all-out cleric archer build, only 3 feats and one domain are dedicated to archery and there's 2 open feats so intuitive attack could easily be put in there.

[lans]

except he doesn't get those, and it it would still be 1 too high, and his attack would be too low.

Its hard to believe a cleric that does ANY amount of fighting wouldn't have his day long free +X weapon +X Armor and +X shield up all the time though.
And then blow the money that frees up on nightsticks.

It was a scenario that ruled out other spells.

[Havok4]

Anyways

Pretty decent pro-cleric argument

That was much more amusing than it looked like it would be at first. Also it is a good example of the multiple ways clerics can be played.

[Solo]

It was a scenario that ruled out other spells.

Depends on how narrowly you interpret it; a stricter interpretation would have also forced the character to forsake weapons, armor, clothing, and beards.

[Cephid Arcanis]

hahaha
I still can't believe how people, even those who have been on the boards for ages, keep using the same old silly arguements!!

People CONSTANTLY compair their favoured build to a 'fighter'. Not a well built melee freak with one-hit kills, 30' reach, epic board control, attack of opportunities vs. everything, amazing saves, immunities, increadible movement options etc, etc.
In a given fight, this is what a good melee build DOES do.
People favouring caster always talk about what their build COULD do.

Casters a wicked, I love them heaps for their amazing options and style and serious power in a chosen field, but a well built melee character can kick ass untill well into the mid levels. More than a caster can, unless they build their character around it.


Rant 2: Spells are way more complicated than melee feats/weapons etc. And there are THOUSANDS of them. It is no wonder that several of the spells/feats made for each class are TOTALY OVERPOWERED. Everyone knows this right?!?

When talking about casters, the same few brocen spells/feats constantly come up to win arguements.
So here is a pretty simple idea: How about we juft fix/ban a few of the most powerful spells, then we can all have a more fun game.

Here is a start: 1) Ban DMM, easy. Clerics can still rock at melee, but they have to waste time/spells to do it. So mostly a melee focused character will be better at it. Clerics will still rock, but now there is some balance. 
2) don't use silly books like complete champion.
3)make 'freedom of movement' give +2/CL on escape artist checks.
4) Contigency only knows what the caster knows.
5) Ban celerity.

With just a few more of these, the game becomes WAY better. Focused melee characters will rock. Casters will rock and be versatile without trumping so many other builds.

Rant 3: Don't compair everything at level 20! (there is NO fix to very high level casting.)

[Bozwevial]

...what do you have against Complete Champion? Lion Totem Barbarian?

[Cephid Arcanis]

and before anyone says it: this is not "gimping casters".
They still have 99.9% of their options etc if we fix a couple of spells.

[Cephid Arcanis]

...what do you have against Complete Champion? Lion Totem Barbarian?

All most of the devotions, Lion Totem Barbarian and several of the spells. I just don't think anyone compaired new to existing when they were making it.