Author Topic: What makes Clerics uber?  (Read 23865 times)

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Sunic_Flames

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Re: What makes Clerics uber?
« Reply #20 on: January 06, 2011, 06:41:33 PM »
Divine Power doesn't obsolete fighters, but it does go a long way towards doing so.

Actually, it does. It's the Cleric Archer phenomena - when something is so weak it can be casually and cheaply outdone by a real class.

After all, what do Fighters have that Clerics do not? 1 HP/level? Being a caster means crafting, which makes up for that. Full BAB? Divine Power. Feats? Would be meaningful if feats were good and didn't suffer from diminishing returns but since they aren't and they do, the standard level feats cover it. Also, you have spells, which are superior in every possible way, even after subtracting the ones required for CoDzillaing.
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lans

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Re: What makes Clerics uber?
« Reply #21 on: January 06, 2011, 06:45:48 PM »
Tell you what stat out a cleric that only uses Divine Power, and feats by level, and we can compare it to a fighter.
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Re: What makes Clerics uber?
« Reply #22 on: January 06, 2011, 06:46:09 PM »
Divine Power doesn't obsolete fighters, but it does go a long way towards doing so.

Actually, it does. It's the Cleric Archer phenomena - when something is so weak it can be casually and cheaply outdone by a real class.

After all, what do Fighters have that Clerics do not? 1 HP/level? Being a caster means crafting, which makes up for that. Full BAB? Divine Power. Feats? Would be meaningful if feats were good and didn't suffer from diminishing returns but since they aren't and they do, the standard level feats cover it. Also, you have spells, which are superior in every possible way, even after subtracting the ones required for CoDzillaing.

And then there are the spells that PROVIDE feats. And once you get to the high levels, you get the EtDC feat swap trick.
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Re: What makes Clerics uber?
« Reply #23 on: January 06, 2011, 06:56:37 PM »
Divine Power doesn't obsolete fighters, but it does go a long way towards doing so.

Actually, it does. It's the Cleric Archer phenomena - when something is so weak it can be casually and cheaply outdone by a real class.

After all, what do Fighters have that Clerics do not? 1 HP/level? Being a caster means crafting, which makes up for that. Full BAB? Divine Power. Feats? Would be meaningful if feats were good and didn't suffer from diminishing returns but since they aren't and they do, the standard level feats cover it. Also, you have spells, which are superior in every possible way, even after subtracting the ones required for CoDzillaing.
Actually, Divine Power also gives 1 hp/level. They're temporary hit points and thus can't be healed back, but it's there. Insult to injury.

lans: Define "only uses Divine Power". Uses Divine Power as his only combat buff? Uses DP as his only spell, period? Uses DP as his only spell and other modifier to stats (to the exclusion of stuff like Knowledge Devotion or a magic weapon), period?
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Echoes

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Re: What makes Clerics uber?
« Reply #24 on: January 06, 2011, 06:58:34 PM »
Cleric power is really in the aggregate. Sure, they don't have many one-shot-kill spells or other jaw-dropping effects. What they do have, however, is a very solid array of buff and utility effects that stack, along with access to a handful of game-winners (the words, miracle). As has been stated, their base chassis is also very strong, especially at the low levels. A level 4 Cleric is 4 hp and 1 point of BAB behind the fighter, which he makes up for with spells like aid, bless, divine favor. Meanwhile, he's got the same (or better) defenses, and still has utility and combat spells like divine insight and hold person.
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Sunic_Flames

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Re: What makes Clerics uber?
« Reply #25 on: January 06, 2011, 07:21:17 PM »
Divine Power doesn't obsolete fighters, but it does go a long way towards doing so.

Actually, it does. It's the Cleric Archer phenomena - when something is so weak it can be casually and cheaply outdone by a real class.

After all, what do Fighters have that Clerics do not? 1 HP/level? Being a caster means crafting, which makes up for that. Full BAB? Divine Power. Feats? Would be meaningful if feats were good and didn't suffer from diminishing returns but since they aren't and they do, the standard level feats cover it. Also, you have spells, which are superior in every possible way, even after subtracting the ones required for CoDzillaing.

And then there are the spells that PROVIDE feats. And once you get to the high levels, you get the EtDC feat swap trick.

Well, yeah. Just to really make it clear they fail.
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Re: What makes Clerics uber?
« Reply #26 on: January 06, 2011, 07:28:01 PM »
Tell you what stat out a cleric that only uses Divine Power, and feats by level, and we can compare it to a fighter.
Alright.

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Re: What makes Clerics uber?
« Reply #27 on: January 06, 2011, 07:33:19 PM »
Tell you what stat out a cleric that only uses Divine Power, and feats by level, and we can compare it to a fighter.
Alright.

Nightstick is 7,500. You have enough to cover it still, just that you have 92 gold left instead of 3,592.
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[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
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lans

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Re: What makes Clerics uber?
« Reply #28 on: January 06, 2011, 07:41:21 PM »
lans: Define "only uses Divine Power". Uses Divine Power as his only combat buff? Uses DP as his only spell, period? Uses DP as his only spell and other modifier to stats (to the exclusion of stuff like Knowledge Devotion or a magic weapon), period?
The claim was that it obsoletes the fighter, so just that spell. I don't have any illusions about a cleric not being better over all, or not being able to obsolete the fighter with Divine Power+other buffs.

Tell you what stat out a cleric that only uses Divine Power, and feats by level, and we can compare it to a fighter.
Alright.

Your damage seems to be too high, 9 from strength and 1 enhancement.
Full Plate should be 9 AC
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Re: What makes Clerics uber?
« Reply #29 on: January 06, 2011, 07:49:45 PM »
That should be 2 enhancement, he has Greater Magic Weapon/Magic Vestment.

lans

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Re: What makes Clerics uber?
« Reply #30 on: January 06, 2011, 08:05:06 PM »
except he doesn't get those, and it it would still be 1 too high, and his attack would be too low.
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Re: What makes Clerics uber?
« Reply #31 on: January 06, 2011, 08:08:41 PM »
lans: Define "only uses Divine Power". Uses Divine Power as his only combat buff? Uses DP as his only spell, period? Uses DP as his only spell and other modifier to stats (to the exclusion of stuff like Knowledge Devotion or a magic weapon), period?
The claim was that it obsoletes the fighter, so just that spell. I don't have any illusions about a cleric not being better over all, or not being able to obsolete the fighter with Divine Power+other buffs.
Alright, I'll try. Let's give them a 32 point buy. Let's say the Cleric goes for a 16/10/14/10/16/10 spread, while the Fighter gets himself a 18/12/16/8/10/8 spread. Sound reasonable? I'll put both at level 7, the lowest level at which the Cleric has access to Divine Power without trickery, and disregard prestige classes. Each will put his level 4 bonus into their primary stat (This doesn't matter much, as it's only a +1). Both shall be humans, and I'll only outfit them with a +1 weapon and +1 armor each - specifically, each gets a reach weapon he's proficient with and +1 Full Plate with armor spikes.

Cleric 7
Str 16 [22], Dex 10, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 17, Cha 10
Feats:
Extend Spell (H)
Persistent Spell (1)
Divine Metamagic (3)
Extra Turning (6)

With Divine Power online, the Cleric has the following stats, assuming average hit points:
49 hp +7 THP (total 56)
AC 19
BAB +7/+2
Full Attack routine: +14/+9 +1 Longspear; Damage 1d8+10
Saves +7/+2/+8

Fighter 7
Str 19, Dex 12, Con 16, Int 8, Wis 10, Cha 8
Feats:
Any eight, four of which must be [Fighter] feats. Power Attack can be safely assumed, I think.

Again assuming average hit points, the Fighter has the following stats:
64 hp
AC 20
BAB +7/+2
Full Attack routine: +12/+7 +1 Glaive; Damage 1d10+7


Not exactly equal, but I'd say they're close enough that they can said to be nearly so. The Fighter can pick his feats and has the opportunity to Power Attack, as well as sligthly better AC and Hit Points, but the Cleric definitely has him beat on the offense (consider also that a lower attack bonus means you can power attack for that much less without compromising your ability to hit). So considering that the Cleric gets this base plus domains (which may give him bonus feats, a better weapon, or other awesome abilities), and spells, I would indeed say that a Cleric using Divine Power can safely replace a Fighter (and thus obsolete him).
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skydragonknight

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Re: What makes Clerics uber?
« Reply #32 on: January 06, 2011, 08:20:39 PM »
There's a quote somewhere that every time a Wizard casts a Cleric spell, he's the sucker for that round since the Cleric has better Hit dice, BAB and saves as well as no arcane spell failure.
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ninjarabbit

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Re: What makes Clerics uber?
« Reply #33 on: January 06, 2011, 08:22:17 PM »
Tell you what stat out a cleric that only uses Divine Power, and feats by level, and we can compare it to a fighter.

Elf Cloistered Cleric 20

Domains: Elf, Time
ACF: spontaneous domain (time)

Feats:
1-point blank shot (elf domain), improved initative (time domain), knowledge devotion (swapped knowledge domain for it), precise shot
3-rapid shot
6-quicken spell
9-DMM: quicken spell
12-does
15-not
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Agita

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Re: What makes Clerics uber?
« Reply #34 on: January 06, 2011, 08:23:48 PM »
There's a quote somewhere that every time a Wizard casts a Cleric spell, he's the sucker for that round since the Cleric has better Hit dice, BAB and saves as well as no arcane spell failure.
That would be K's Necromancer Handbook, explaining why Wizards shouldn't be 'undead horde' necromancers.
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Shadowhunter

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Re: What makes Clerics uber?
« Reply #35 on: January 06, 2011, 08:39:20 PM »
The one time it's not true is the one time the Wizard casts Break Enchantment on the "I-rolled-a-1-on-my-fort-save-so-now-I'm-a-garden-statue" Cleric.
But most of the time, it is.

Clerics make Fighters obsolete?
Yes.
Divine Power alone?
Maybe, maybe not.
Normal Cleric buffs for 24 hours?
Most definitely, there is an obsolete fighter sulking about right about now.

Unless it's a Dungeoncrasher or Zentarim Fearmonger. They can still feel useful from time to time.
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lans

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Re: What makes Clerics uber?
« Reply #37 on: January 06, 2011, 09:02:36 PM »
Tell you what stat out a cleric that only uses Divine Power, and feats by level, and we can compare it to a fighter.

Elf Cloistered Cleric 20

Domains: Elf, Time
ACF: spontaneous domain (time)

Feats:
1-point blank shot (elf domain), improved initative (time domain), knowledge devotion (swapped knowledge domain for it), precise shot
3-rapid shot
6-quicken spell
9-DMM: quicken spell
12-does
15-not
18-manner
Thug Fighter
1 Education
2Point Blank Shot
3 Knowledge Devotion
4Precise shot
6 Rapid Shot, Improved Initiative
8 Weapon Focus
10 Weapon Specialization
12 Ranged Weapon Mastery, Greater Weapon Focus
14 Greater Weapon Specialization
15 Many Shot
18 Greater Rapid Shot, Weapon Supremancy
20 I ran out of feats.

This has +6 to hit, +3 to damage over your cleric.
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Solo

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Re: What makes Clerics uber?
« Reply #38 on: January 06, 2011, 09:06:02 PM »
Are you taking Zen Archery or other feats and spells into account when making that statement?

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Re: What makes Clerics uber?
« Reply #39 on: January 06, 2011, 09:09:19 PM »
Are you taking Zen Archery or other feats and spells into account when making that statement?
"using only Divine Power" was his limitation.

Of course, I don't believe he's taking Knowledge Devotion into account.

Heck, for an archer if one additional buff were allowed, I'd say use Divine Grace for +10 Dex.  Would it help for Zen Archery?  No, but it's funny as hell when the Cleric with one spell is extremely close to being as good as a Fighter that spent his entire build on something.
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