Author Topic: Fair PC LA for DMG2 "NPC" Templates  (Read 6257 times)

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PlzBreakMyCampaign

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Fair PC LA for DMG2 "NPC" Templates
« on: January 03, 2011, 06:15:32 AM »
This line "Because these abilities are not balanced for PC use, these level adjustments are quite liberal" literally means that the LA is too high. One might argue RAI, that what this is retrying to say is that the change to ECL is ... well opposite. Now that I look at it both ways of looking at the quote support the literal meaning.

This is supported by the LA+12 for single dominated monster at a time. Warlock 6 / Mindbender 7 does this for large or smaller 6 more times a weak at the same ECL and is a viable character all the while. Compare to LA12 / x 1 which has no saves or hp...

So we know the LA is inflated, but by how much? We need a litmus with a listed ability that compares to an existing LA. Vestigal Twin seems comparable to LA+2 for the far superior muliheaded template after level drains. This is what makes me think the table's PC LA should be atleast halved and rounded down. The Superior Multiweapon Fighting feat/ability is swapped for the multivoice feat, but we are still out Nat+1, Con+2, Darkvision 90', vorpal semi-immunity, +2Listen,Spot&Search, and the Improved Initiative and Combat Reflexes feats.

What we should do with the part we are out? I'm not sure its worth a full LA+1 but it feels close. The template is only LA+2 and we've supposedly found 1 LA of it, maybe a bit more considering the ability is just slightly better than the feat. This makes me think we should make the LA divided by three and round. It seems a shame to be be able to combine fractional LA for LA1.

Maybe both fractions should stay. Thoughts?


Note: I'm not interested in the fail of a litmus test in SS11. -1 LA for small size? Ni infinite SR for LA1? Whatever.

Reference Chart:
Name                      CR LA  The greater of CR and LA/3, rounded if over 1
Aberrant Limbs         +1 +2  1
Abysmally Wretched  +2 +5  2
Arcane Adept           +2 +4  2
Divinity                   +1 +2  1
Doomwatcher           +2 +4  2
Dragon Touched       +1 +2  1
Fey Spirit                +1 +3  1
Graced from Outside  +0 +1  1/3
Gravetouched          +2 +5   2
Gaurdian Spirit         +0 +1   1/3
Lifemate                 +0 +1   1/3
Naturebond             +2 +5   2
Past Life                 +2 +5   1/3 + ({0/3} Su Poison Immunity, {1/3} Bardic Knowledge, {2/3} +6Str&Con,+3moral will saves, -2AC Rage, {1} Smite Evil, {4/3} Fighter feat, {5/3} Metamagic or Item Creation feat, {2} +6 Favored Enemy, {7/3} +6d6SA, {8/3} +11ECL rebuke, {10/3} +11EDL WS, {4} 5th level SLA)
Poisonlaced             +0 +1   1/3
Prodigy                   +0 +2   2/3 (2 for int based factotums)
Prophet                  +1 +5   2
Spore Carrier           +2 +4   2 (1 if not in an ooze-heavy campaign)
Stormtouched         +3 +7    +2 (+3 for a Druid 1 making his own little wight apocalypse)
Unearthly Beauty      +4 +12 +4
Vestigal Twin           +2 +5   +2
« Last Edit: June 07, 2011, 08:49:29 PM by PlzBreakMyCampaign »
[Spoiler]
Quote
An interesting read, nice to see a civil discussion
The point of Spell Resistance is to make it harder to get buffed.
And healed. Don't forget that.
Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.
[/Spoiler]

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Your a shifter... you have all you ever need.
It blows MoMF out of the water

But if your greedy for more [Wish] for something that only effects you, like another class level or two that doesn't count against your ECL.
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Yes, I'm the 3.0 "Masters of the Wild" shifter, the awesome kind. My favorite form to take is Force Dragon. Yes, I am immortal ... My character is hands down the coolest guy in the campaign and there is nothing I could possibly want.
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cru

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Re: Fair PC LA for DMG2 "NPC" Templates
« Reply #1 on: January 03, 2011, 10:55:17 AM »
At lower level, racial abilities are worth more, because your class abilities are few and weak. However, racial abilities often don't scale well; and are eclipsed by class abilities at higher level. Therefore, finding the perfect balance might be hard.

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Fair PC LA for DMG2 "NPC" Templates
« Reply #2 on: January 03, 2011, 12:54:58 PM »
Take a look at Stormtouched.
Electricity healing (as the LA+1 mechanatrix, or LA+0 lesser mechantrix)

Call lightning storm + control weather 1/week

LA+7

Call lightning storm isn't really an issue (it pales in comparison with a warlock, given that CL=HD)

Control weather is an excellent spell - but if the template gives it to you at level 12 or something, it's no longer super unbalancing.

So I'd make that change, drop it down to LA+1, and go behind the barn and shoot the designer who came up with the LA for that.
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Littha

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Re: Fair PC LA for DMG2 "NPC" Templates
« Reply #3 on: January 03, 2011, 03:24:09 PM »
If I were to rewrite all the templates in the game I would use something akin to the half celestial/fiend SLA table but base it off ECL rather than racial HD. That way you could make a template continue to justify itself even at the higher levels.

PlzBreakMyCampaign

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Re: Fair PC LA for DMG2 "NPC" Templates
« Reply #4 on: January 03, 2011, 05:08:06 PM »
Ya the scaling LA problem is a larger issue. In this case atleast no bonuses are given (except one template) so the low level trade-off is not have HP or saves for a save.

Take a look at Stormtouched.
Electricity healing (as the LA+1 mechanatrix, or LA+0 lesser mechantrix)

Call lightning storm + control weather 1/week

LA+7

Call lightning storm isn't really an issue (it pales in comparison with a warlock, given that CL=HD)

Control weather is an excellent spell - but if the template gives it to you at level 12 or something, it's no longer super unbalancing.

So I'd make that change, drop it down to LA+1, and go behind the barn and shoot the designer who came up with the LA for that.
:)

That is the only template besides unearthly beauty that has an LA above 1 in my proposed system. LA+2 is still too high imo but might be worth it at low levels if used intelligently.

What do people think of every npc template besides the listed LA1,LA2 templates and the two mentioned above being LA1?? That's essentially what the divided by 3 and rounded down system does. Keeping fractions for below LA1 even allows divinity and gaurdian spirit to be combined for one LA. Its not bad for a domain power, +2defl AC, +2sacred/profane hit,dam&ini / skills / saves, +1DCs after taking a divine class.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2011, 12:09:31 AM by PlzBreakMyCampaign »
[Spoiler]
Quote
An interesting read, nice to see a civil discussion
The point of Spell Resistance is to make it harder to get buffed.
And healed. Don't forget that.
Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.
[/Spoiler]

Old Geezer's Law of Hobby Taste: The more objectively inconsequential a hobby is, the more disagreements within the community will be expressed in outrageously insulting, overblown, and ludicrously emotionally laden terms.

More Funny than Humble[Spoiler]
Quote from: PlzBreakMyCampaign
Your a shifter... you have all you ever need.
It blows MoMF out of the water

But if your greedy for more [Wish] for something that only effects you, like another class level or two that doesn't count against your ECL.
Quote from: hungryhungryhippo987
Yes, I'm the 3.0 "Masters of the Wild" shifter, the awesome kind. My favorite form to take is Force Dragon. Yes, I am immortal ... My character is hands down the coolest guy in the campaign and there is nothing I could possibly want.
PBMC gets a cookie for DotA r

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Fair PC LA for DMG2 "NPC" Templates
« Reply #5 on: January 03, 2011, 08:27:40 PM »
Gravetouched might work better as a +2, though.  The ability to avoid xp/gp components on animate/create undead and command undead pool is pretty boss.
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Bozwevial

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Re: Fair PC LA for DMG2 "NPC" Templates
« Reply #6 on: January 04, 2011, 02:20:34 AM »
Prodigy would be a really nice template to slap onto a factotum. Prophet isn't too great (comparable to Uncanny Dodge, perhaps?). Vestigal Twin would be nice on any sort of caster or someone with UMD. I don't have LEoF, so I can't compare it to a sharn.

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Fair PC LA for DMG2 "NPC" Templates
« Reply #7 on: January 04, 2011, 02:30:48 AM »
Sharns blow away vestigal twin without looking back.  They'd be a solid race even without an extra two standards/round.

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Bozwevial

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Re: Fair PC LA for DMG2 "NPC" Templates
« Reply #8 on: January 04, 2011, 02:34:07 AM »
They come with racial Hit Dice on top of their LA though, right?

X-Codes

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Re: Fair PC LA for DMG2 "NPC" Templates
« Reply #9 on: January 04, 2011, 05:44:01 AM »
They're not templates, they're just stupid shit the game designers threw in a book.  They'd be more appropriately statted as grafts with GP values than actual templates.

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Fair PC LA for DMG2 "NPC" Templates
« Reply #10 on: January 04, 2011, 02:09:43 PM »
They come with racial Hit Dice on top of their LA though, right?
4 RHD and 5 LA.

Of course, the race grants spells cast as spell-likes as a 6th level favored soul and sorcerer, plus a stupid ton of goodies.  The designers were on crack when they designed it.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2011, 02:16:30 PM by The_Mad_Linguist »
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bearsarebrown

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Re: Fair PC LA for DMG2 "NPC" Templates
« Reply #11 on: January 04, 2011, 04:06:15 PM »
They're not templates, they're just stupid shit the game designers threw in a book.  They'd be more appropriately statted as grafts with GP values than actual templates.
Then almost all of them are worth buying.

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Re: Fair PC LA for DMG2 "NPC" Templates
« Reply #12 on: January 04, 2011, 04:34:41 PM »
They're not templates, they're just stupid shit the game designers threw in a book.  They'd be more appropriately statted as grafts with GP values than actual templates.
Then almost all of them are worth buying.
Maybe not something you can purchase, then, otherwise every factotum in existence would be selling their firstborn to buy Prodigy. Scaling templates like Phrenic for some of them, while others might be feats or something.

the_shadowmind

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Re: Fair PC LA for DMG2 "NPC" Templates
« Reply #13 on: January 04, 2011, 06:03:59 PM »
Past Life at LA +5 does look strong as first glance if you are picking the better options, such as the Druid's wild shape of tiny to large animals of up to 11HD for 11 hours or the 1/day 5th level Sorcerer spell one per days as an SLA. The +6d6 sneak attack isn't that bad but certainly isn't worth +5 LA.
Other than the wild shape or daily spell the template is maybe worth +1 or +2 LA. The +2 attack/saves/skill checks ensure it is worth +1 LA before the ability is chosen, and depending on the ability between a total of +2 LA or +3 LA.

But it has the same problem most Level Adjustment has. It doesn't scale well.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2011, 06:08:32 PM by the_shadowmind »

bearsarebrown

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Re: Fair PC LA for DMG2 "NPC" Templates
« Reply #14 on: January 04, 2011, 06:08:25 PM »
Past Life would actually be pretty good for games taking place between levels 6 and 10 if you still use old Polymorph rules and you gain the new forms HP.

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Re: Fair PC LA for DMG2 "NPC" Templates
« Reply #15 on: January 04, 2011, 11:13:40 PM »
Gravetouched might work better as a +2, though.  The ability to avoid xp/gp components on animate/create undead and command undead pool is pretty boss.
the cost is pretty low at low levels due to the CL cap (which also means no strong undead before you could already get access). At CL6 a cleric can cast it anyways and the cost mitigation is at its peek. Shame its only 1/week

Is making 2 ghouls (outside your control) to be commanded at ECL4 the issue? That 1/week thing means they aren't as expendable as normal undead minions :(

So is there consensus on rounding the thirds of LA?
« Last Edit: January 07, 2011, 07:11:37 AM by PlzBreakMyCampaign »
[Spoiler]
Quote
An interesting read, nice to see a civil discussion
The point of Spell Resistance is to make it harder to get buffed.
And healed. Don't forget that.
Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.
[/Spoiler]

Old Geezer's Law of Hobby Taste: The more objectively inconsequential a hobby is, the more disagreements within the community will be expressed in outrageously insulting, overblown, and ludicrously emotionally laden terms.

More Funny than Humble[Spoiler]
Quote from: PlzBreakMyCampaign
Your a shifter... you have all you ever need.
It blows MoMF out of the water

But if your greedy for more [Wish] for something that only effects you, like another class level or two that doesn't count against your ECL.
Quote from: hungryhungryhippo987
Yes, I'm the 3.0 "Masters of the Wild" shifter, the awesome kind. My favorite form to take is Force Dragon. Yes, I am immortal ... My character is hands down the coolest guy in the campaign and there is nothing I could possibly want.
PBMC gets a cookie for DotA r

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Fair PC LA for DMG2 "NPC" Templates
« Reply #16 on: January 07, 2011, 01:26:32 PM »
I still think +1 LA is a little low.
You get some nice immunities (death effects and energy drain) and a rebuking pool which scales with character level, and can turn downtime into free minions (or reanimate something in one 3600th of the time).

It seems like too much to grant for a 1-level dip.
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Bozwevial

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Re: Fair PC LA for DMG2 "NPC" Templates
« Reply #17 on: January 07, 2011, 01:28:53 PM »
Especially one that will eventually pay for itself. Semi-expendable undead are pretty sweet at lower levels, and then by the time death effects/energy drain become more common, you've bought the template off.

PlzBreakMyCampaign

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Re: Fair PC LA for DMG2 "NPC" Templates
« Reply #18 on: January 08, 2011, 03:29:23 PM »
Okay so atleast that CR+2, "LA+5" template should be LA+2. Obviously the prodigy CR+1 la+5 should still be LA+1, so the other cr+2, la+5 examples are:

abysmally wretched, naturebond, past life, and vestigal twin. It seems clear that the first should be LA+1 and the last probably too. Consensus on that and the middle two?
[Spoiler]
Quote
An interesting read, nice to see a civil discussion
The point of Spell Resistance is to make it harder to get buffed.
And healed. Don't forget that.
Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.
[/Spoiler]

Old Geezer's Law of Hobby Taste: The more objectively inconsequential a hobby is, the more disagreements within the community will be expressed in outrageously insulting, overblown, and ludicrously emotionally laden terms.

More Funny than Humble[Spoiler]
Quote from: PlzBreakMyCampaign
Your a shifter... you have all you ever need.
It blows MoMF out of the water

But if your greedy for more [Wish] for something that only effects you, like another class level or two that doesn't count against your ECL.
Quote from: hungryhungryhippo987
Yes, I'm the 3.0 "Masters of the Wild" shifter, the awesome kind. My favorite form to take is Force Dragon. Yes, I am immortal ... My character is hands down the coolest guy in the campaign and there is nothing I could possibly want.
PBMC gets a cookie for DotA r

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Fair PC LA for DMG2 "NPC" Templates
« Reply #19 on: January 08, 2011, 03:36:36 PM »
An extra standard action per round is definitely not LA+1.  I don't care if spells are limited to verbal-only; you also could use a magic item or SLA.  

I'd probably make it just give you 2 abberation HD in exchange for the benefit.  


Abysmally wretched is basically the same as the otherworldly countenance abyssal heritor feat.  LA+1, and kind of weak.


Past life is impossible to give a good answer for.  

Hmm... I could get wildshape as a level 11 druid, a fifth level sorcerer spell as a SLA OR best of all I could get a fighter bonus feat.  Those are totally the same level of power!
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