Shaper help, My DM wants to nerf Psionic Minor Creation

[stranglebat]

My DM wants to nerf Psionic Minor Creation so that it can't produce a metric ton of Black lotus poison or the like but he does like the idea of me being the parties poison vendor considering its a drow campaign. Has anyone else had a DM or been a DM that nerfed Psi creation in such a way that it doesn't make the spell useless.

Ideas we had is put a gold cap based on Craft poisonmaking ranks or caster level. Or to limit it to a certain dosage amount when casting it based on caster level

Any feedback would be good if i can't work something out i might just change disciplines

[Lycanthromancer]

Psionic minor creation is still insanely useful even without producing poison, and you can still make poisonous things even without producing the actual poison directly.

You should be able to produce arsenic by making apple seeds, after all.

[Saeomon]

Stranglebat, I feel your pain.

My DM hasn't allowed me to create any poisons with the power. She's ruled that there's no way that my character would know of any of the poisons in the books, Black Lotus Extract especially since it's exceedingly rare, according to her. I haven't even been allowed a Knowledge check; she's said there's no way that a person with my character's background would have learned of any of this stuff, period.

The power has been very useful despite this. Early on in the adventure, the party encountered a Plant creature that produced acid. She's allowed me to create acid ever since. I've also used the power to bypass traps, explore otherwise unreachable areas, and block detection spells. Being able to create 6 cubic feet of ordinary wood or twine/rope on command is nothing to complain about.

[Lycanthromancer]

Make sure to grab Linked Power, so you can manifest it in 1 round, rather than 1 minute.

Also, don't forget about the amber hamster ball.

[Bauglir]

Yeah, honestly, let your DM nerf it. It's not like insta-killing anything that isn't immune to poison is really that appropriate a use for the power. And it's still hardly useless. Like illusions, its power lies in your ability to be creative and apply it to countless situations. Except that True Seeing doesn't destroy it.

[stranglebat]

Yeah i guess i was being 1 dimensional with my thoughts on it, it looks like either way i should be able to make some lower level poisons plus everything else. And i should be able to get away with making certain alchemy items if i can justify it.

Lycan my build at the moment includes linked power and i had already noticed that little loophole  .

Another question on the shaper who is lvl 7, would i be better off shaper 20 or PrCing out to something like Anarchic Initiate
keeping the craft and UMD (i got transparency ruled in with my Psi crystal being able to use it too) maxed easier as AI doesnt have those on its list (though 4+int and its list aren't so bad as is Chaotic surge)

[Lycanthromancer]

Shapers can succeed very well with any number of PrCs (or none at all).

Anarchic initiate is generally better for blaster types, although the wild surge could be quite good for boosting the astral construct power.

Crystal master (see The Mind's Eye articles) is good for a suite of abilities, depending on what you want.

Totemist/soul manifester (see Magic of Incarnum and The Mind's Eye again) is amazing, if you pull in the right soulmeld abilities. A rod of Extend Power (as the metamagic rod, but with metapsionics instead) bound to your hands is a nice way to get some extra out of your constructs (especially if you stack with other abilities that boost your ML or the number of 'free' pp you can spend on a power).

The 3.5 constructor (again, The Mind's Eye) is *the* best PrC for shapers that focus on astral construct. Seriously, it's awesome.

Beyond that, you could potentially use other PrCs, such as slayer or a psionic version of jade phoenix mage. It's not hard to turn a shaper into awesomesauce, because shapers are awesome. You just have to squeeze a bit for the sauce.

[Saeomon]

Another question on the shaper who is lvl 7, would i be better off shaper 20 or PrCing out to something like Anarchic Initiate
keeping the craft and UMD (i got transparency ruled in with my Psi crystal being able to use it too) maxed easier as AI doesnt have those on its list (though 4+int and its list aren't so bad as is Chaotic surge)

You won't need many points in Craft skills to be able to make just about anything you want. The max DC on a Craft check for non-alchemical, non-weapon items is 20. Assuming an 18 Int, the Artiste Psicrystal personality, and a +2 bonus from your Psicrystal using the Aid Other action to help you on your check, and Masterwork artisan's tools, you'll already have +11 on your Craft checks before skill points. Take 10 on all your checks and you won't even need skill points in Craft, period. If your DM lets you have all those bonuses on checks associated with Minor Creation, and lets you take 10 on the associated checks, even better! Mine does not.

[Saeomon]

Regarding PrC selection, you really can't go wrong with Anarchic Initiate in any kind of campaign. Its best class features are obtained in the first three levels. It gives you a better hit die and better BAB. It gives you more skill points and a very good class skill list. In sum, it'll make your Psion stronger no matter what, even if your campaign is a short one.

Constructor and Crystal Master are both great PrCs, too, but they don't come into their own until higher levels. Unless your campaign is slated to go past character level 15+, you won't see everything they're capable of.

[Endarire]

A DM has said that I need an expensive material component to use the power, which is a significant piece of what I try to create.  To make black lotus extract, I need some already.

[rasmuswagner]

Here's a suggestion: Minor Creation can create the raw materials for the poison, but you have to spend the time and Craft rolls to actually make the poison.

[carnivore]

Here's a suggestion: Minor Creation can create the raw materials for the poison, but you have to spend the time and Craft rolls to actually make the poison.

+1 good suggestion

 

[AndyJames]

Things like Wall of Iron and Minor Creation for tons of Black Lotus, or even the standard "buy a ladder, split it in two, sell two 10ft poles and profit" breaks open the game's economy. DnD is many things and one of them is managing your funds (i.e., economy for the RTS players out there). There are ways of extending your funds like taking item creation feats, but seriously, if you are trying to do the minor creation + black lotus = unlimited funds thing (which includes you USING the black lotus, even if you are not selling it), I'd say flat out "no" as the DM. There is a reason why black lotus is so expensive, and that is because it ganks certain character types something chronic. It is practically a death sentence for anyone hit by it at low levels, pre-Neutralise Poison, and it can still kill the ill-prepared rogue or wizard lacking healing support at just about any level.

Play nice and don't try to break the game's economy, would be my advice.

[Sunic_Flames]

Can't really sell something that will only last a few hours. As for using it, it's a DC 20 poison. By the time you could actually afford it normally everything is immune, or saves on a 2. Not to mention it costs almost as much as a 9th level spell scroll. Which might actually help you.

[Lycanthromancer]

A DM has said that I need an expensive material component to use the power, which is a significant piece of what I try to create.  To make black lotus extract, I need some already.

Psionics doesn't use components. Ignore them freely.

You already ARE using a material: it's ectoplasm, from the Astral Plane, which can be shaped into anything you want.

Also, if need be, buy a spell component pouch for 5 gp. It'll contain anything you need, whenever you need it.

[archangel.arcanis]

Can't really sell something that will only last a few hours.

Sure you can. You just need to leave town soon enough. 

You can effectively extend its life span by using Quentessense

Objects sealed within quintessence are protected from the effects of time

you just can't keep a whole lot of it in one place due to the interference it generates. But enough to be able to sell it for a profit.

[Saeomon]

Can't really sell something that will only last a few hours.

Sure you can. You just need to leave town soon enough. 

I'm certain this is why Shapers get Bluff as a class skill.

[Aliment]

Can't really sell something that will only last a few hours.

Sure you can. You just need to leave town soon enough. 

I'm certain this is why Shapers get Bluff as a class skill.

Very nice.

I do like the idea of it only make poison components.  It doesn't really break the game economy, since poison takes a while to put together.  Also, just saying no to Black Lotus would be good, use lesser poisons and just keep things balanced.

[stranglebat]

Thanks for the replys!

The main thing we wanted to get away from is just making buckets of Black Lotus Poision and have the party Warforged go dump it on someone.
I, luckily, don't think my DM is against making poisons with the spell so much as making massively powerful ones and even then he said he doesnt mind me making limited amounts of BL extract at high levels.

[stranglebat]

got to play my shaper today for the first time (first time i havent been the DM in 6 years too) and wow did i underestimate Minor Psionic Creation and fabricate. Very versatile powers!  So i may just tell my DM i dont need to make poisons, we played 7 hours and i didnt make them once so meh