Author Topic: Underpowered Mundanes or Overpowered Magic - Which is worse?  (Read 122008 times)

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Sunic_Flames

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Re: Underpowered Mundanes or Overpowered Magic - Which is worse?
« Reply #240 on: January 06, 2011, 04:27:47 PM »
Ahh, all the flames are keeping me warm :P

Would you agree to... oh, party ECL 12, so CR 12 encounters, which the party is expected to win, and a CR 15 boss challenge, which is supposed to be beatable, but with a distinct risk of failure? Maybe throw in a single supposed-to-walk-through encounter of CR 10?
Enemies, locations, approach, etc. Like an actual gameplay encounter.

Party of 4, all tier 3-4 classes, or the classic fighter-wizard-rogue-cleric? One day which they're supposed to make through without taking a full rest, no more than 48 CR worth of encounters for the day, and no encounter higher than CR 15?
And those parameters are too weak. No more than 48 CR for the day for a level 12 party means I am completely wasting my time writing anything, even if the person making the party isn't good at making characters. They'll blast through everything in half a round, and there will be nothing special to say about the encounters.
Uh... I thought the game was supposed to be balanced around 4 encounters by day, using equal-CR encounters? By going the 25% per encounter rule, an average party would have expended 100% of their daily resources that way.

Nope. It goes like this: Half all encounters are at level. 10% are below level. The other 40% are higher level, typically by 1-4 but occasionally 5 or more. So even in a stock default game, the average encounter level of encounters per day will be greater than the party level.

Quote
But, okay. make them all CR 16 encounters, and go for 6 per day. That should annihilate any average ECL 12 party. Each encounter should have a 50% chance of killing the entire party, in fact.

If you think that's okay, I understand why you think anything but Tier 1 is a waste of space.


Don't be a retard.
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[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

Senevri

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Re: Underpowered Mundanes or Overpowered Magic - Which is worse?
« Reply #241 on: January 06, 2011, 05:25:12 PM »
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Quote
And those parameters are too weak. No more than 48 CR for the day for a level 12 party means I am completely wasting my time writing anything, even if the person making the party isn't good at making characters. They'll blast through everything in half a round, and there will be nothing special to say about the encounters.
Uh... I thought the game was supposed to be balanced around 4 encounters by day, using equal-CR encounters? By going the 25% per encounter rule, an average party would have expended 100% of their daily resources that way.

Nope. It goes like this: Half all encounters are at level. 10% are below level. The other 40% are higher level, typically by 1-4 but occasionally 5 or more. So even in a stock default game, the average encounter level of encounters per day will be greater than the party level.
Huh. Where do you get that? Doing some reading, I find that four equal-cr encounters should take about 80% party resources, and a fifth would risk wiping them out. In general, stuff on DMG page 49.
From where we also get that in an adventure (not in a day), a total of 70% of encounters should be of Party-equal EL, 12% with EL 1-4 higher and 5% EL 5 or more higher.
Which, by the 4 per day encounter rule means, on average, 1 encounter in 4 days is overpowering, a bit more than 1 in 2 days has an average EL of 2.5 higher than APL.
That EL 5+ one is meant to be one for the party to RUN AWAY from, not one to beat, by the way.
In short, no more than APL +4 encounters which they're actually supposed to fight.

I'll check DMG2 later.

Quote
Don't be a retard.
I'll do just that shortly after you stop insulting people, mmkay?

BruceLeeroy

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Re: Underpowered Mundanes or Overpowered Magic - Which is worse?
« Reply #242 on: January 06, 2011, 05:35:17 PM »
Sunic, your vituperative comments fail to establish anything other than your hubris. This forum is a place of rather civil discussion when you're not spewing your vitriol.



 


                       Stop being an asshole and calm the fuck down.

Sunic_Flames

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Re: Underpowered Mundanes or Overpowered Magic - Which is worse?
« Reply #243 on: January 06, 2011, 06:33:16 PM »
Quote
Quote
And those parameters are too weak. No more than 48 CR for the day for a level 12 party means I am completely wasting my time writing anything, even if the person making the party isn't good at making characters. They'll blast through everything in half a round, and there will be nothing special to say about the encounters.
Uh... I thought the game was supposed to be balanced around 4 encounters by day, using equal-CR encounters? By going the 25% per encounter rule, an average party would have expended 100% of their daily resources that way.

Nope. It goes like this: Half all encounters are at level. 10% are below level. The other 40% are higher level, typically by 1-4 but occasionally 5 or more. So even in a stock default game, the average encounter level of encounters per day will be greater than the party level.
Huh. Where do you get that? Doing some reading, I find that four equal-cr encounters should take about 80% party resources, and a fifth would risk wiping them out. In general, stuff on DMG page 49.

Also from the DMG. In fact on the very same page. 10% lower level, 50% same level, 20% puzzle monsters (which means higher level by the way, read the description), 15% +1-4 levels, 5% +5 or more levels. Aka, 40% higher level. It comes up every single day. Often more than once. Also, since you can't run from battles, particularly higher level battles despite what it tells you you do have to fight those super high level enemies. And since it's only 1:20 odds, it comes up once every 1.5 levels.

Quote
I'll do just that shortly after you stop insulting people, mmkay?

The insults will continue until post quality improves.

Bruce: Hi Welcome

You're wrong. Insulting people when they are stupid has a non zero chance of getting them to cease being stupid. Permitting them to be stupid means the stupidity continues.

Also, I am very calm. See, I can put idiots in their place without my ire getting up at all.
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[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

wotmaniac

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Re: Underpowered Mundanes or Overpowered Magic - Which is worse?
« Reply #244 on: January 06, 2011, 06:51:36 PM »
At this point dark is just trolling, so I'm inclined to simply tell him to go fuck himself and direct him to wait a few days, and then ask Ithamar/Solo/BeholderSlayer what they think of my encounter designing abilities.

As it is he is refusing to answer the questions I posed to him, so it is going nowhere. If he trolls even once more I will be completely disregarding everything he says as useless trolling.
hi pot, meet kettle
[spoiler][/spoiler]

Hey you. Mouth Breathing Paizil Fuckwit.
[...]unnecessary vitriolic bullshit[...]
is this what you call "smiting"?  certainly not what I'd expect from the "crusader of logic" :eh


Sunic, your vituperative comments fail to establish anything other than your hubris. This forum is a place of rather civil discussion when you're not spewing your vitriol.



 


                       Stop being an asshole and calm the fuck down.
:clap
though, as I've pointed out before, I think he may be biologically incapable of much else.(of course, this is pure speculation and conjecture on my part).

[spoiler]
suggestion for a new avatar for Sunic:


[/spoiler]

[spoiler]
If you stop ignoring 289 pages telling what the intent is to stretch "more power" in your own god complexion of your interpretation trumps all to cover ability adjustments from aging then I will ignore a quarter page of rules that exist within a sidebar.
I think in this case the grammar is less important than whether the Str and Dex bonus provided to your created undead scales.

Greenbound Summoning RAI
Expanded Gestalt
More Savage Progressions[/spoiler]
Report any wrongs I have done here.

dark_samuari

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Re: Underpowered Mundanes or Overpowered Magic - Which is worse?
« Reply #245 on: January 06, 2011, 06:59:41 PM »
Proclamation!!!

Aww sweet I'm a King!

But seriously Sunic, if you aren't afraid you should be completely confident in accepting a challenge from me. Do you dare crumble under the fear of facing off against the King? I dare say you might...


wotmaniac

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Re: Underpowered Mundanes or Overpowered Magic - Which is worse?
« Reply #246 on: January 06, 2011, 07:05:33 PM »
Proclamation!!!

Aww sweet I'm a King!

But seriously Sunic, if you aren't afraid you should be completely confident in accepting a challenge from me. Do you dare crumble under the fear of facing off against the King? I dare say you might...


wait a minute ... hold up ... stop right there!
we can't be going around just having kings all over the place.
There's only room here for 1 emperor.  though, I'm sure he'd be happy to appoint you to some sort of respectable potion or another (after you've made the appropriate oaths of fealty, of course).

That is all.  Carry on.

[spoiler]
If you stop ignoring 289 pages telling what the intent is to stretch "more power" in your own god complexion of your interpretation trumps all to cover ability adjustments from aging then I will ignore a quarter page of rules that exist within a sidebar.
I think in this case the grammar is less important than whether the Str and Dex bonus provided to your created undead scales.

Greenbound Summoning RAI
Expanded Gestalt
More Savage Progressions[/spoiler]
Report any wrongs I have done here.

Senevri

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Re: Underpowered Mundanes or Overpowered Magic - Which is worse?
« Reply #247 on: January 06, 2011, 07:09:01 PM »
Huh. Where do you get that? Doing some reading, I find that four equal-cr encounters should take about 80% party resources, and a fifth would risk wiping them out. In general, stuff on DMG page 49.

Also from the DMG. In fact on the very same page. 10% lower level, 50% same level, 20% puzzle monsters (which means higher level by the way, read the description), 15% +1-4 levels, 5% +5 or more levels. Aka, 40% higher level. It comes up every single day. Often more than once. Also, since you can't run from battles, particularly higher level battles despite what it tells you you do have to fight those super high level enemies. And since it's only 1:20 odds, it comes up once every 1.5 levels.
Well, if you're going against the suggestions in the DMG and forcing a battle even if the players wish to surrender, negotiate or run away, you're doing it wrong. Well, going against what's suggested in the DMG, anyway. If that 5% chance encounter is indeed an unescapable beast with lethal intentions, anyone who survives is seriously overpowered. Oh, and nobody will ever make it to the third level.
I doubt the percentages are meant as random chance, either.

As for the puzzle monsters, well... that's where having an incompatible party competition means you're in for a bad fight, and versatile members - generally speaking, full casters, although I believe factotum and some specific versatile builds - should also suffice. Presuming the players figure out the 'trick' for the encounter.   So it's basically very difficult encounter with a glaring weakness. What qualifies as such, is up for debate; I doubt just dropping in, say, griffons, on a CR 4 party and saying "well, they had a bad will save" suffices if no-one in the party can target that save.

Quote
I'll do just that shortly after you stop insulting people, mmkay?

Quote
The insults will continue until post quality improves.
...The beatings shall continue until morale improves? Yeah, we'll see how well that works. Your brand of acid occasionally gives me interesting ideas, so I don't mind much, really.

Sunic_Flames

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Re: Underpowered Mundanes or Overpowered Magic - Which is worse?
« Reply #248 on: January 06, 2011, 07:30:51 PM »
Ignoring Persistent Fail.

Huh. Where do you get that? Doing some reading, I find that four equal-cr encounters should take about 80% party resources, and a fifth would risk wiping them out. In general, stuff on DMG page 49.

Also from the DMG. In fact on the very same page. 10% lower level, 50% same level, 20% puzzle monsters (which means higher level by the way, read the description), 15% +1-4 levels, 5% +5 or more levels. Aka, 40% higher level. It comes up every single day. Often more than once. Also, since you can't run from battles, particularly higher level battles despite what it tells you you do have to fight those super high level enemies. And since it's only 1:20 odds, it comes up once every 1.5 levels.
Well, if you're going against the suggestions in the DMG and forcing a battle even if the players wish to surrender, negotiate or run away, you're doing it wrong. Well, going against what's suggested in the DMG, anyway. If that 5% chance encounter is indeed an unescapable beast with lethal intentions, anyone who survives is seriously overpowered. Oh, and nobody will ever make it to the third level.
I doubt the percentages are meant as random chance, either.

Surrender is a fate worse than death. The encounter rules are for fighting encounters. If it were something you were meant to negotiate with, like some non hostile Great Wyrm at level 3 that doesn't count. If you run you die tired, because enemies are faster than you, and higher level enemies can counter your abilities so you can't run that way.

And remember, we're still talking stock, routine encounters. Any campaign harder than the norm has more high level encounters more often. Such as say, just about anything anyone here would actually play in.

Quote
As for the puzzle monsters, well... that's where having an incompatible party competition means you're in for a bad fight, and versatile members - generally speaking, full casters, although I believe factotum and some specific versatile builds - should also suffice. Presuming the players figure out the 'trick' for the encounter.   So it's basically very difficult encounter with a glaring weakness. What qualifies as such, is up for debate; I doubt just dropping in, say, griffons, on a CR 4 party and saying "well, they had a bad will save" suffices if no-one in the party can target that save.

Well the thing about puzzle monsters is JUST ABOUT EVERY HIGH LEVEL ENCOUNTER is a puzzle encounter. You either do the right thing and pretty much win on the spot or you don't, and it almost certainly fails. Mostly because any real high level encounter is going to have some valid defenses, so the trick is to find out what they didn't guard against. And if it's not a real high level encounter, you'll blow it away, regardless of actual level. But Puzzle Monsters are the biggest reasons why casters are mandatory, and why adapt or die is the motto of D&D. Well that and non combat encounters, or anything else that involves advancing the plot. Though it clearly means things like incorporeal monsters, it breaks down the most in actual play due to a complete lack of any real playtesting.

Quote
I'll do just that shortly after you stop insulting people, mmkay?

Quote
The insults will continue until post quality improves.
...The beatings shall continue until morale improves? Yeah, we'll see how well that works. Your brand of acid occasionally gives me interesting ideas, so I don't mind much, really.

[/quote]

Either it works and the quality of the thread improves or it does not work, but I continue to get target practice in. Win/win.
Smiting Imbeciles since 1985.

If you hear this music, run.

And don't forget:


There is no greater contribution than Hi Welcome.

Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.

IP proofing and avoiding being CAPed OR - how to make characters relevant in the long term.

Friends don't let friends be Short Bus Hobos.

[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

lans

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Re: Underpowered Mundanes or Overpowered Magic - Which is worse?
« Reply #249 on: January 06, 2011, 08:02:01 PM »

From my experience a full attack usually won't reduce a d10+good con to 1 hp . As for tumble, that goes to the need for optimization among classes, and to try to not get cornered.

Well for starters, you can't even use Tumble in non light armor. And while light armor is optimal due to that whole you'll get auto hit anyways + speed is key + tumble, you'd be surprised how few actually use it.

And a routine full attack 30%s you. As in full health down to 30%. A slightly better than routine full attack can easily leave you at 1 HP at the end. If you're lucky. A slightly better one than that can take you from full to 1 to dead before the end. In any case the 1 HP thing was brought up simply to indicate how narrow the fine to dead window is.
Sounds about right at mid levels. It seemed to be sliding towards 1 full attack=dead at higher levels.

By better than average do you mean a higher than normal do you mean a higher CR creature or something with higher attack power than a giant?

Kind of want to look at the survivability of a "Turtle" character now.

Quote
There are other things like marbles, grease, silent image, entanle, web that are available at lower levels.

Not to mention that there is still the scenario where 1 person goes under or withdraws and the rest of the party defeats the encounter.

Most of the lower level effects there have small AoEs, and can be walked around.[/quote]

Dungeons tend to have narrow hallways.
Quote
Quote
Sure go a head.

99% success rate per fight, very generous considering that ya know, Fighter is your only class: 66.23% chance you have been annihilated before reaching this point.

95% success rate per fight, still generous for a Fighter: 99.58% chance you have been annihilated before reaching this point. That's about oh... 1/256 survival. And you still haven't actually accomplished anything special if you ace that longshot check, just survived level 1-9.

Iterative Probability is a bitch, ain't it?
But where are you getting the 99% from? Is it just the fighter or is it the entire party? Does it take into account the fighter being knocked unconscious and living? Or just being forced to withdraw as other party members pick up his slack?
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raith0

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Re: Underpowered Mundanes or Overpowered Magic - Which is worse?
« Reply #250 on: January 06, 2011, 08:11:37 PM »
But where are you getting the 99% from? Is it just the fighter or is it the entire party? Does it take into account the fighter being knocked unconscious and living? Or just being forced to withdraw as other party members pick up his slack?
[/quote]

Im guessing from reading this thread that Sunic and his group are people who play DnD to win DnD and that you Ians and your friends play for the enjoyment of gaming and friendship so you dont have to bring the best most tweaked out character to the table every week

Sunic_Flames

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Re: Underpowered Mundanes or Overpowered Magic - Which is worse?
« Reply #251 on: January 06, 2011, 08:34:48 PM »

From my experience a full attack usually won't reduce a d10+good con to 1 hp . As for tumble, that goes to the need for optimization among classes, and to try to not get cornered.

Well for starters, you can't even use Tumble in non light armor. And while light armor is optimal due to that whole you'll get auto hit anyways + speed is key + tumble, you'd be surprised how few actually use it.

And a routine full attack 30%s you. As in full health down to 30%. A slightly better than routine full attack can easily leave you at 1 HP at the end. If you're lucky. A slightly better one than that can take you from full to 1 to dead before the end. In any case the 1 HP thing was brought up simply to indicate how narrow the fine to dead window is.
Sounds about right at mid levels. It seemed to be sliding towards 1 full attack=dead at higher levels.

By better than average do you mean a higher than normal do you mean a higher CR creature or something with higher attack power than a giant?

Either or both. Giants are not very good auto attackers, as they do not use natural weapons.

Quote
Kind of want to look at the survivability of a "Turtle" character now.

It's either very bad (if enemies attack them, despite being a non threat) or very good (because everything ignores them and attacks others). Either way though it isn't helping.

Quote
Dungeons tend to have narrow hallways.

But big enough for the creatures that live there. And there's more than one way around.

Quote
But where are you getting the 99% from? Is it just the fighter or is it the entire party? Does it take into account the fighter being knocked unconscious and living? Or just being forced to withdraw as other party members pick up his slack?

The 99% and 95% and so forth are meant to illustrate how even very small failure chances per encounter add up and quickly approach one over many iterations... such as say, a campaign. It applies to each person, and counts losing (dead) but not landing in the narrow KOed but not dead window (which will also happen rarely). And running means dying tired. Though picking up the Fighter's slack is hardly new...

Also, raith fails.
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There is no greater contribution than Hi Welcome.

Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.

IP proofing and avoiding being CAPed OR - how to make characters relevant in the long term.

Friends don't let friends be Short Bus Hobos.

[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

lans

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Re: Underpowered Mundanes or Overpowered Magic - Which is worse?
« Reply #252 on: January 06, 2011, 09:15:13 PM »
Quote

Sounds about right at mid levels. It seemed to be sliding towards 1 full attack=dead at higher levels.

By better than average do you mean a higher than normal do you mean a higher CR creature or something with higher attack power than a giant?

Either or both. Giants are not very good auto attackers, as they do not use natural weapons.
Could you give a few examples of good auto attackers?
Quote
Quote
Kind of want to look at the survivability of a "Turtle" character now.

It's either very bad (if enemies attack them, despite being a non threat) or very good (because everything ignores them and attacks others). Either way though it isn't helping.
I was also seeing what kind of offense I could while doing so, I didn't plan on full expertise.

Quote
Quote
Dungeons tend to have narrow hallways.

But big enough for the creatures that live there. And there's more than one way around.

But if the other way around gives a couple of rounds the party can get some distance between them.

Quote
But where are you getting the 99% from? Is it just the fighter or is it the entire party? Does it take into account the fighter being knocked unconscious and living? Or just being forced to withdraw as other party members pick up his slack?

The 99% and 95% and so forth are meant to illustrate how even very small failure chances per encounter add up and quickly approach one over many iterations... such as say, a campaign. It applies to each person, and counts losing (dead) but not landing in the narrow KOed but not dead window (which will also happen rarely). And running means dying tired. Though picking up the Fighter's slack is hardly new...

Also, raith fails.
I didn't mean running, I mean moving out of the danger zone while other people continue to fight.

The kill ratio seems to jive with my experience with  5 characters being killed between 4-16(only 1 character was 16).
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Senevri

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Re: Underpowered Mundanes or Overpowered Magic - Which is worse?
« Reply #253 on: January 07, 2011, 02:44:43 AM »
Surrender is a fate worse than death. The encounter rules are for fighting encounters. If it were something you were meant to negotiate with, like some non hostile Great Wyrm at level 3 that doesn't count. If you run you die tired, because enemies are faster than you, and higher level enemies can counter your abilities so you can't run that way.
How do you reconcile that with,

Quote from: Dungeon Master's Guide
"The PCs should run. If they don't, they will almost certainly lose.

I mean, it's easy to claim that the DMG is just wrong, and perhaps, sometimes it is... but it does describe how it assumes the game to play out. Do you ignore that, and focus on the numbers and tables and whatnot... or ignore those and focus on how the game assumes it's played?

Quote
And remember, we're still talking stock, routine encounters. Any campaign harder than the norm has more high level encounters more often. Such as say, just about anything anyone here would actually play in.
Yes, yes. Games are a tad harder on Nightmare difficulty. Even if air walking, teleporting tarrasques are fun... Moving along...

Quote
Well the thing about puzzle monsters is JUST ABOUT EVERY HIGH LEVEL ENCOUNTER is a puzzle encounter. You either do the right thing and pretty much win on the spot or you don't, and it almost certainly fails. Mostly because any real high level encounter is going to have some valid defenses, so the trick is to find out what they didn't guard against. And if it's not a real high level encounter, you'll blow it away, regardless of actual level. But Puzzle Monsters are the biggest reasons why casters are mandatory, and why adapt or die is the motto of D&D. Well that and non combat encounters, or anything else that involves advancing the plot. Though it clearly means things like incorporeal monsters, it breaks down the most in actual play due to a complete lack of any real playtesting.
Whether it breaks down or not...
Actually, this reminds me: Casters are brutes. Their solution to everything is to brute-force their way through with a spell. But that's a different topic, altogether.
My question here would be, do you allow it to break down... or make it work?

Quote
Either it works and the quality of the thread improves or it does not work, but I continue to get target practice in. Win/win.
Well, you self-identify as a flamer, and I need a thicker skin, so... *shrug*

Midnight_v

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Re: Underpowered Mundanes or Overpowered Magic - Which is worse?
« Reply #254 on: January 07, 2011, 03:00:00 AM »
I... I didn't read all of this so forgive me if what I'm about to say is covered somewhere in here already, but allow me to ad my voice to this question.

I believe the problem is primarily underpowered mundanes, and until someone does a hard rewrite of TEAM:MONSTER I'm going to feel that way. Even if you proceeded to ream out caster power the challenges presented by the Dmg and MM 1-X, Fiend Folio, and co are or rather can be devastating to a non caster party. If 2 fighter, and 2 rogues stroll into the ghostlands, they become one with team monster pretty quick.
 
  There are skills that outright are replaced by spells "Sim-Salla-bim, bitches" but that failing is in the skill system never being allowed to do thing like open the door and the burden of staying closed is on the door. I may not be all the way clear with that but take something simple like G.Invisibility vs. Basic Hiding the class skill. With hide you're forced to roll meaning you can roll poorly, G. Invis the opponent does make the attempt, this doesnt' mean wizards are broke it means things like invisible stalkers existence are radically more succesful at staying hidden. etc.  The problem is the mundanes are victims of a system that makes it hard for them to do thier jobs. Imho
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Cephid Arcanis

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Re: Underpowered Mundanes or Overpowered Magic - Which is worse?
« Reply #255 on: January 07, 2011, 03:25:50 AM »
High level mundanes should be running on water, balancing on clouds, unlocking the most complicated locks with a quick rap of the knuckles, breaking down walls with their bare hands, sliding between shadows invisibly, tearing out enemy spines with their teeth, hurling knives accurately enough to slice the wings off a fly at a thousand paces, leaping mountains without a running start, and so on.

In short, 'mundanes' are no longer 'mundane'. They're extraordinary.

Sorry, haven't read the whole post yet, but I totaly agree with this. But, at high levels, mundanes DO do this. I've got a 12th level character who can out grapple a titan, a archer who can shoot the eye of a beholder at 3miles in the dark. We know from this min/max place that well built mundanes can do epic things, but casters trump them with single poorly designed spells. (e.g. freedom vs. grapple build)

I reacon fix the casters, and then let the mundanes shine. (and ToB helps heaps)
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Senevri

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Re: Underpowered Mundanes or Overpowered Magic - Which is worse?
« Reply #256 on: January 07, 2011, 03:29:02 AM »
@Midnight_v:
Well...
- Either shore up non-casters. A lot has been done towards just that....
- nerf SPELLS themselves - this will affect the monsters themselves
- rewrite casters AND monsters, making both manageable for lower-tiered ones
- rewrite casters to at least tone them down to equal level with monsters, but not more than that.

I kinda _like_ crazy-powered casters, but I also don't mind powerful non-casters, so I'm mostly leaning towards option 1...
...expect for the whole loads of options -> insane complexity -> a huge pain to manage aspect.

@Cephid Arcanis:
Personally, I think they should get there WITHOUT needing leet optimization skills.

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Re: Underpowered Mundanes or Overpowered Magic - Which is worse?
« Reply #257 on: January 07, 2011, 03:50:45 AM »
No, shore up the non-caster.
Leave casters as they are (so the people who play druids don't feel ass-fucked by your changes)
and let the MM be as it is.
Get rid of anything TO...
You have a real choice I think...
You could go the Frank and K way. (Balance Up, looking at what your fighting at each level MM as the axis)
The Pathfinder way (Make a bunch of changes that don't DO anything... lie about it)
or the 4th edition way. (Balance down, where, No on gets to play as thier favorite super hero, really so we all suck equally)
 Really thats where all these things end up, but basically I'm not gonna even suggest that someone redo the monster manual changing spells that, are sp and su's on monster changes the cr of that monster. So then you're writing a new system. At that point its better for me at least to just play another game...ymmv
« Last Edit: January 07, 2011, 03:55:59 AM by Midnight_v »
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Cephid Arcanis

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Re: Underpowered Mundanes or Overpowered Magic - Which is worse?
« Reply #258 on: January 07, 2011, 03:57:01 AM »
I don't quite know why people keep saying leave the casters and improve the mundanes.
What about single spell auto-trump of mundanes?

Are we going to have a feat that says: "grapple check beats freedom of movement." or Arrows are immune to wind wall?

Just ditch a few auto-trump spells and rubbish like immediate teleporting level 1 abilities (conjurer). Some stuff is OBVIOUSLY overpowered.
Otherwise we'd have to change the whole system.
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Senevri

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Re: Underpowered Mundanes or Overpowered Magic - Which is worse?
« Reply #259 on: January 07, 2011, 04:10:02 AM »
Well, just rewriting the spells where needed, bumping spells up or down levels, and so forth would basically fix casters.
Fly and blast, confound and transform,  is fun, so that should be retained. Magically picking locks or detecting traps... where did that come from?  How does that even make any sense? What sort of forces are being manipulated there?

Fabricate and Creation being so much more powerful than actual skills is kind of a problem, too... basically, things I'd exclude from spells are:
- anything stolen from psionic archetypes. No mind reading, no telekinesis and so forth.
- anything that gives a crunch benefit without any sort of a fluff reason. How would someone even research a spell like that?

What I'd add would be:
- Spells still requiring skill checks. If you move twice as fast, you must have some basic competence in balance, to remain standing, for an example.
- Shapechange should at least require a decent skill check to know about the monster. So no turning into types you don't know about.

Besides that, shifting spell levels would do quite a bit. Any spell that's a must-have or obviously best for it's level is too strong, although a spell that retains its usefulness over the career of a character is just fine. Basically, it's not that Meteor Swarm is underpowered, it's just that gate, time stop and shapechange are overpowered.

You know, Paizo did have one neat idea in their brand of polymorph nerf, although Wizards also has similar spells -- spell 'trees' where a higher-level spell encompasses multiple lower level spells.
Especially if you add the prerequisite of knowing those lower-level spells, or something similar....