Author Topic: Underpowered Mundanes or Overpowered Magic - Which is worse?  (Read 122009 times)

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Amadi

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Re: Underpowered Mundanes or Overpowered Magic - Which is worse?
« Reply #20 on: December 25, 2010, 05:36:01 PM »
The issue with the 'simulationist' idea is that there is no one on earth who is over 6th level. It's the pinnacle of human achievement. Athletes who can break world records just by getting out of bed in the morning. Physicists that redefine reality before lunch.

If you assume that, you would also have to assume the same to be true for a D&D world. Somehow, however, there are enough wizards around to make endless supply of each and every item ever, and a lot of villains to defeat for PCs higher than level 6. If you play E6-D&D, you comparision is justified, but if you don't, it isn't. Hell, in modern world, there are a lot more people, so we would have more people above that power level.

The issue with real life is just that people take levels in NPC-classes. Like Expert. And level up knowledge:Physics. They don't abuse Pazuzu or spam Eldritch Blast. :(

Gods_Trick

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Re: Underpowered Mundanes or Overpowered Magic - Which is worse?
« Reply #21 on: December 25, 2010, 05:57:01 PM »

  No, in the real world we can study to get better. In D&D you generally have to kill something scary. That should limit down the number of adventurers by a lot. Afterall, it takes a certain wealth level for Ressurection to get practical.

  There are no rules to level sans encounters, so all high level NPCs exist by DM fiat.

juton

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Re: Underpowered Mundanes or Overpowered Magic - Which is worse?
« Reply #22 on: December 25, 2010, 06:21:39 PM »
Something not said often enough on these boards: a smart player, running a powerful, prepared Tier 1 character can still lose. How often and how badly depends on a lot of factors but I don't think I've ever played in a campaign where we weren't overwhelmed at least once. The flip side is a mundane character can win, not as often as a caster but they can still win. The thing is in D&D the characters need to win close to 100% of the time, if your party is only winning 80% of the time you probably won't survive the session, let alone the campaign. So the real game breaker is that there are large categories of characters and parties who can't win reliably.

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Re: Underpowered Mundanes or Overpowered Magic - Which is worse?
« Reply #23 on: December 25, 2010, 07:18:28 PM »
The issue with the 'simulationist' idea is that there is no one on earth who is over 6th level. It's the pinnacle of human achievement. Athletes who can break world records just by getting out of bed in the morning. Physicists that redefine reality before lunch.

If you assume that, you would also have to assume the same to be true for a D&D world. Somehow, however, there are enough wizards around to make endless supply of each and every item ever, and a lot of villains to defeat for PCs higher than level 6. If you play E6-D&D, you comparision is justified, but if you don't, it isn't. Hell, in modern world, there are a lot more people, so we would have more people above that power level.

The issue with real life is just that people take levels in NPC-classes. Like Expert. And level up knowledge:Physics. They don't abuse Pazuzu or spam Eldritch Blast. :(
lv7 experts are still truly incredible people.

http://www.thealexandrian.net/creations/misc/d&d-calibrating.html
My work
The tier system in a nutshell:
[spoiler]Tier 6: A cartographer.
Tier 5: An expert cartographer or a decent marksman.
Tier 4: An expert marksman.
Tier 3: An expert marksman, cartographer and chef who can tie strong knots and is trained in hostage negotiation or a marksman so good he can shoot down every bullet fired by a minigun while armed with a rusted single-shot pistol that veers to the left.
Tier 2: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything, or the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.
Tier 1: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything and the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.[/spoiler]

SorO_Lost

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Re: Underpowered Mundanes or Overpowered Magic - Which is worse?
« Reply #24 on: December 25, 2010, 07:19:31 PM »
Even if we stop looking at the details, it is important to realize that he still lost, despite being, from what I can understand, one of the best if not the best mundane fighter in that world.
1. No Lee isn't. Perhaps his teacher could be considered to be so, after all he is capable of opening the 7th gate and with a single punch was able to take out a uber shark missile fired from a chakara eating super bad.

2. Gaara is a Jinchuri. It's a fancy way of saying he has the Paragon Template.

3. And even without the One Tails, Gaara remains Kazikage. The fourth and highest rank of ninja that denotes the village leader. In fact, his current title is Joint Shinobe Army Commander General. Of what? The five way alliance between all the major nations against the BBEG.

D&D casters are significantly stronger than most fictional casters, and even these weaker casters in high powered melee settings can give them endless trouble.
Very, I can't recall a single story about the great Merlin summoning God's Army to fight Mephistopheles as part of just another Tuesday fight.

Most casters are the bad guys anyway so of course they get to give others an endless amount of trouble.




Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
[spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
[/spoiler]

Prime32

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Re: Underpowered Mundanes or Overpowered Magic - Which is worse?
« Reply #25 on: December 25, 2010, 07:25:53 PM »
2. Gaara is a Jinchuriki. It's a fancy way of saying he has the Paragon Template.
Rather, that he's an Empty Vessel possessed by a unique quori with control over sand. :p

Most of the really dangerous characters either have weird racial powers or are one of those.
« Last Edit: December 25, 2010, 07:29:25 PM by Prime32 »
My work
The tier system in a nutshell:
[spoiler]Tier 6: A cartographer.
Tier 5: An expert cartographer or a decent marksman.
Tier 4: An expert marksman.
Tier 3: An expert marksman, cartographer and chef who can tie strong knots and is trained in hostage negotiation or a marksman so good he can shoot down every bullet fired by a minigun while armed with a rusted single-shot pistol that veers to the left.
Tier 2: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything, or the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.
Tier 1: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything and the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.[/spoiler]

SorO_Lost

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Re: Underpowered Mundanes or Overpowered Magic - Which is worse?
« Reply #26 on: December 25, 2010, 07:31:38 PM »
The issue with the 'simulationist' idea is that there is no one on earth who is over 6th level. It's the pinnacle of human achievement. Athletes who can break world records just by getting out of bed in the morning. Physicists that redefine reality before lunch.

If you assume that, you would also have to assume the same to be true for a D&D world. Somehow, however, there are enough wizards around to make endless supply of each and every item ever, and a lot of villains to defeat for PCs higher than level 6. If you play E6-D&D, you comparision is justified, but if you don't, it isn't. Hell, in modern world, there are a lot more people, so we would have more people above that power level.

The issue with real life is just that people take levels in NPC-classes. Like Expert. And level up knowledge:Physics. They don't abuse Pazuzu or spam Eldritch Blast. :(
lv7 experts are still truly incredible people.

http://www.thealexandrian.net/creations/misc/d&d-calibrating.html
I would have loved that link back when the Batman thread was up.

Edit -
Quote
I can't state him up more than 2nd level. He only casts break rock, Message, and Flare. Sure the telekinetic staff battle looks bad assed and you thought of telekinesis when you see it. But nope, Gandolf can't use 5th level spells, if anything it's poorly animated Magic Missile battle that ends with a knocked out wizard being subject to Levitate by Mr Saromon the level 2 Wizard.
« Last Edit: December 25, 2010, 07:42:17 PM by SorO_Lost »
Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
[spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
[/spoiler]

fuinjutsu

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Re: Underpowered Mundanes or Overpowered Magic - Which is worse?
« Reply #27 on: December 25, 2010, 08:00:41 PM »
The issue with the 'simulationist' idea is that there is no one on earth who is over 6th level. It's the pinnacle of human achievement. Athletes who can break world records just by getting out of bed in the morning. Physicists that redefine reality before lunch.

If you assume that, you would also have to assume the same to be true for a D&D world. Somehow, however, there are enough wizards around to make endless supply of each and every item ever, and a lot of villains to defeat for PCs higher than level 6.

Because magic exist in D&D words.  Without magic, your average human is never going to get higher than 5th level.  Period.  Albert Einstein was 4th.  King Arthur was maybe 5th, and he had magical help.  Anyone who reaches level 4 is already likely well above average for a human.  Anyone who reaches level 6 is pretty much superhuman.

Quote
If you play E6-D&D, you comparision is justified, but if you don't, it isn't. Hell, in modern world, there are a lot more people, so we would have more people above that power level.

No, because in the modern world we cooperate and use technology and industry to do what fantasy worlds do with magic and personal prowess.  The gun superseded the bow, not because it was better (it took several centuries for a gun to even match a bow in most respects) but because it was easy to learn.  Bows took a lifetime to master, guns took two weeks to learn to fire competently.  IRL is gun using.  D&D is bow using.  In D&D lifetime study is where the power is at, because there are no mass producible implements of power.
Eh, the wizard have more money than them combined, he could in theory just use all his money on a fleet of trained attack mules, but then we aren't playing 3.5 but zergling rushing in Starcraft instead.

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Re: Underpowered Mundanes or Overpowered Magic - Which is worse?
« Reply #28 on: December 25, 2010, 10:22:52 PM »
Amadi, you are very insightful and have a good grasp of the game as is.  In one of your earlier posts you basically outlined the system and why it cannot work.  Kudos

Also, I cannot say enough about E6

Also, I cannot say enough about gestalt

I used to frequent the gleemax boards way long ago, back when druid was the awesome sauce (still is), treantmonk was just starting his guides, and everybody was waiting for the next splat book.  Those were good times.

The thing that wotc realized with 4th edition was that different things were happening at different levels of play.  Most games weren't making it past level 8 or level 4 for that matter.  So they balanced everything....big mistake.

The thing that Paizo realized was that 3rd edition was broken in skills, feats, and especially magic.  They tried to fix it.  I admire them and play their 3.75 because the rules come in a nice big book (I got one for everybody in the group, and they can dm now!)  Also, they made love to the Paladin, who needed a good lay.  Unfortunately, they really didn't fix the higher level magic....which is still a good thing for DMs only.

Then I was playing a game with a party at level 6.  The players were at each others throats and going for pks.  I was concerned, mainly because they were using my books which I left at my friends apartment, and I wasn't invited to play earlier. (I literally own all but 2 wotc 3.0 and 3.5 books, which is why i left them there...I had no room ;))

The necrowizard and evil cleric could have easily trounced the rest of the party, even at level 6.  The rogue was like "My strategy if they attack me is to roll high so I can hit them."  Man was that fun...and unbalanced.  The gang didn't realize it was a teamwork game, even if the party was evil, cooperation is the true power of the party.

Well, I'm still gaming with that gang, and they have since outgrown their pk ways.  The trick was to find a system that allowed you to play your concept, just not over do it.  Gestalt E6, now with 3.75 flavored skills, feats, distributions, and spell fixes.  That's why I went with Pathfinder, it allows me to play the system I love (obviously seeing as I bought a ton o books).  There are still pcs who are stronger than others...but not at everything.  We have all the bases covered but still fail often enough to make it interesting and highly entertaining (fire trap to the face!...I can disable magic traps as well...fire trap to the face!).

So which is worse?  I'd say the system as it stands is worse, followed by any pc who would play a mundane class with the strategy of rolling high.  I would follow that with players who attack each other knowing they can crush another player's character(dick move).

Probably worst of all is the dm who knows about tiers and allows 5+6s to mix with 1+2s.  JaronK may not have nailed it perfectly, but he did get the idea right.  Play tier 3 if you wish to maintain balance and still have a highly magical world.  Play E6 gestalt 3.75 if you want to play d&d the way I think it is supposed to be.

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Re: Underpowered Mundanes or Overpowered Magic - Which is worse?
« Reply #29 on: December 25, 2010, 10:46:40 PM »
I've DMed a 3.5 game that ran levels 1 to 21.  The main reasons non-casters were relevant is because of plot (DM Fiat) where the uberpowerful 'antagonist' used a Sorting Algorithm of Evil to subtly train the PCs to fight for him.

Also, it was our first campaign and we didn't know the extent of the rules.
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Don't even need TO for this.  Any decent Hood build, especially one with Celerity, one-rounds [Azathoth, the most powerful greater deity from d20 Cthulu].
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Bester

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Re: Underpowered Mundanes or Overpowered Magic - Which is worse?
« Reply #30 on: December 26, 2010, 12:49:00 AM »
I've DMed a game where the wizard was actually the weakest party member.

The wizard player was too afraid to cast spells because she may run out of them if a bigger monster comes along.  Okay, it was a second edition game, but still....

On a more serious note, if you guys are actually going to make new magic classes that are brought into some kind of balanced range, are you going to balance them against TOB classes, or PHB classes? 

Balancing the mess that is 3.5 is a gargantuan undertaking.  If you just focused on casters, which are on the extreme end of the seesaw, you would have a good start...but that's all, just a start.  Before I even attempted such a thing, I would first be asking myself a few questions.

"Is this the game for me or is there another system that fits me?"

Along those lines

"Am I a hack and slash guy?  Am I a storyteller guy?"

I have the storyteller system for world of darkness and I love that game.  I love that game because it lets people play themselves.  I have 2 dots in drive since I know how to drive stick...  Also there's a zombie outside your apartment complex, what do you do?  I offer him some cheetos of course.  Roll some d10s and we'll make stuff up.  Zombie Dance Party!

I have Heroquest.  It is just a game of hack and slash.  I love it.  Take that lich guy!  I can't believe I had to run from you 5 short levels ago because of extreme fiat! (okay I loved it back in the 90s when it was new)  I heard that 4.0 is just hack and slash.

D&D 3.5...3.75 is right in the middle.  It has it all, but it's not perfect.  I especially enjoy the book layouts.  I got my money's worth just on the books!

So my answer to my own question is that I'm right in the middle.  The answer to the first question is that I know of other systems, but feel that 3.75 is "IT"  Even tho it's broken, there are so many options within the system.  The flavor is there, the numbers and implementation are secondary.  Yet I still must insist on low level caps because I don't trust the system(accidental abuse is still abuse).  I know where it works (the low levels), why it works (action economy), and how it works (game mechanics).  I'll just stick with those thanks.

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Re: Underpowered Mundanes or Overpowered Magic - Which is worse?
« Reply #31 on: December 26, 2010, 01:01:18 AM »
I have Heroquest.  It is just a game of hack and slash.  I love it.  Take that lich guy!  I can't believe I had to run from you 5 short levels ago because of extreme fiat! (okay I loved it back in the 90s when it was new)  I heard that 4.0 is just hack and slash.
There's a bit more emphasis on tactical combat, perhaps, but I'd say it can easily be as story-focused as 3.5. More so, perhaps, since rituals cut down on the possibility for scry-and-die and the like. Take it with a grain of salt, though--I have relatively little experience with 4th.

Amadi

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Re: Underpowered Mundanes or Overpowered Magic - Which is worse?
« Reply #32 on: December 26, 2010, 07:59:43 AM »
Because magic exist in D&D words.  Without magic, your average human is never going to get higher than 5th level.  Period.  Albert Einstein was 4th.  King Arthur was maybe 5th, and he had magical help.  Anyone who reaches level 4 is already likely well above average for a human.  Anyone who reaches level 6 is pretty much superhuman.

So, you are basically assuming that the world of D&D somehow makes people exceptional. This is a fairly bold claim, and one that is probably untrue. Not only does the D&D world probably hold much smaller population than the current world, it is also much, much more probable for a person there to die young. If level 5 was a paragon of success, the strongest man alive, how many dragons would want to kill that man out of malice or spite? How many gods would turn on him? How many illithids would want a tasty snack?

How many creatures much, much more powerful than him would kill him, just because he's a paragon of success.

For characters in D&D to realistically ever reach levels above 5, we have to assume there are multiple of them. And I really mean a lot. We will have to assume a ratio of heroes to zeroes that is mathematically incomprehensible. Only explanation for this that you have to give is "it's magic", which does not really hold. Even with magical help, there won't be a way to plunge people into superhumanity.

No, because in the modern world we cooperate and use technology and industry to do what fantasy worlds do with magic and personal prowess.  The gun superseded the bow, not because it was better (it took several centuries for a gun to even match a bow in most respects) but because it was easy to learn.  Bows took a lifetime to master, guns took two weeks to learn to fire competently.  IRL is gun using.  D&D is bow using.  In D&D lifetime study is where the power is at, because there are no mass producible implements of power.

But even in real life, people study for lifetimes. Physicists devote their lifes to research, and artists paint night and day. Athletes are trained, often through brutal and life-risking methods, to compete. Michelangelo painted for his life, to the point where he neglegted his personal hygiene to get more time to paint.

Face it, if we are to use D&D as a statistic starting point, one in 216 people would have 18 in any given stat. 2.745825342% of people would have 18 in at least one stat. That's hundreds, if not thousands, in your hometown already. It is very probable at least one of them in your hometown alone has the dedication to master any art or craft or research. These people are not incredibly rare. How many people your public school had? 300? We're looking at 8 people like this. 8.237476026 to be precise.

Not only this, but back when we didn't have the technology, people were living in what was more or less the D&D world, only without great wyrm dragons capable of destroying the entire human civilization just for the lulz. Without trolls wiping out villages alone. In a lot safer world where they had more time to practice their craft. In a world, where, by all regards, they should've gotten better at their respective outlet of energy than their D&D respective would.

If anything, the D&D world should produce less paragons, not more. You seem to claim the contrary is true, and to justify this with the presence of magic, when it is fairly obvious to not be true. Not only this, but real life has demonstrated that best works of art are not necessarily a result of long practice, but of short flashes of insight. Mozart died how old again? Newton just happened to sit below a tree. That's a natural 20 right there, and not surprisingly, natural 20's happen 5% of the time, and you'll be rolling a lot of those checks. A lot. Now, let's model Newton as.. Level 3 expert, with three ranks in mathemathics, just to be fair. I mean, he wasn't trained a physicist, definitely not to a degree the modern people are. So, assume int of 18, and we are looking at 27 result.

Our only way to model superhuman successes is through "complex" skill checks, where we are rolling hundreds of d20's, to reach a point where it is statistically reasonable that no one came up with these theories prior to these people. Lifetime devotion leads to success because you roll enough to increase your probability slightly. For every succesfull person with lifetime devotion, there are hundreds more that accomplish nothing, because of the complexity of these skill checks. They might have to roll a natural 20 twenty times in row to get a masterpiece, and if they only craft a few hundred paintings, chances are none of them are that great.

Still, the same is true of D&D. Most people should be level 1, with almost zero outliers. Skill check of +11(4Ranks+4Int+SF) is enough for great success if you have a long-enough lucky streak and maybe get a circumstance bonus. Chances are Einstein was just a level 1 physicist. Still, humans in current world should be producing more "miracles" than the men of the past.

I cannot fathom a reasoning that would lead to D&D world having an abnormal amount of heroes. It's way too improbable from a statistical viewpoint, and explaining things based on "it's possible" doesn't make sense. You have to compare the two worlds, and try to find a reason why D&D would be special compared to our world. After my demonstration of the contrary, burden of proof lies on you, and no, "it's magic" doesn't count.

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Re: Underpowered Mundanes or Overpowered Magic - Which is worse?
« Reply #33 on: December 26, 2010, 01:40:31 PM »
There is an exceptionally large proportion of exceptional people in D&D worlds. But in a D&D world, they become less exceptional simply by comparison. But make no mistake, the average D&D character (NPC or no) is far likelier to be a badass by real-world standards than the average real-world person. Clearly, natural selection operates more strongly in a world with dragons or something. That's just good enough an explanation for me to be satisfied and get on to the parts of the game that actually really matter.
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Re: Underpowered Mundanes or Overpowered Magic - Which is worse?
« Reply #34 on: December 26, 2010, 01:48:31 PM »
When humans are competing for resources with creatures like rakshasas, mind flayers, dragons, trolls, and hill giants, people will have to step it up, just to survive.

Thus, there will be a far larger percentage of humans (and other common races) that are Herculean, just to keep the rest of the population alive. You end up with humans that can bench-press tanks and others that can blast fire from their fingertips. And these abilities don't even necessarily have to be magical; the rules of physics are far more easily bent and broken than IRL, by necessity (otherwise supernormal abilities wouldn't exist at all).
[spoiler]Masculine men like masculine things. Masculine men are masculine. Therefore, liking masculine men is masculine.

I dare anyone to find a hole in that logic.
______________________________________
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JaronK

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Re: Underpowered Mundanes or Overpowered Magic - Which is worse?
« Reply #35 on: December 26, 2010, 01:51:03 PM »
I actually think overpowered magic is more of an issue, because it removes the challenge and makes it so much harder to have a coherent story.  Some mundanes are too weak (I hate that you can't really involve Fighters in social settings and expect them to be useful, if you actually follow the rules for it).  But there's plenty of good ones too.

I want it to be a challenge to beat enemies.  I don't want win buttons that just gank bosses.  Where's the fun in that?

JaronK

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Re: Underpowered Mundanes or Overpowered Magic - Which is worse?
« Reply #36 on: December 26, 2010, 02:29:54 PM »
I actually think overpowered magic is more of an issue, because it removes the challenge and makes it so much harder to have a coherent story.  Some mundanes are too weak (I hate that you can't really involve Fighters in social settings and expect them to be useful, if you actually follow the rules for it).  But there's plenty of good ones too.

I want it to be a challenge to beat enemies.  I don't want win buttons that just gank bosses.  Where's the fun in that?

JaronK

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I can't decide which I have more of a problem with though. UMu or OMa.
Then again, I've given up on regular DnD (more or less, still PbP) and now I just work on honing my EG8 system.
[Spoiler]
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Amadi

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Re: Underpowered Mundanes or Overpowered Magic - Which is worse?
« Reply #37 on: December 26, 2010, 04:20:00 PM »
@Bauglir/Lycanthromancer:

That is not how biology works. All humans would get the same abilities, or a large percentage of popualation would have the same abilities at least. There won't be a few superpowered people coming out of nowhere. If there is a gene that allows people to shoot fire off of their fingertips, either that ability spreads in population, assuming it's useful, or then it disappears, assuming it is not. More the natural selection works on the population, more probable it is that this will happen. Only other real option is that the race splits into two, which is probably what happened with elves/humans/dwarves, but still, all members of a given race should be more homogenous if you were to explain this through natural selection.

Further, in a world with dragons and stuff, people wouldn't most probably learn to throw fireballs. They'd learn to hide and camouflage themselves, or then they'd, you know, grow spikes to be less delicious. Or turn poisonous. They wouldn't get a mutation that gives them ridiculous powers over making pacts with demons and blasting stuff with eldritch energy. Dire situations don't lead to superheroes, they lead to bottleneck situations and dead populations. Ever tried to spray insect toxin in a bee hive? Did you get a superpowered bee killing twenty humans? No. You got a lot of dead bees. Those bees didn't have time to evolve, and the situation is exactly the same in human worlds. Settlements are not raided by dragons on regular basis - If they were, there would be no settlements.

If you are desperate for an explanation, the only way to go is try and explain heroisms through religion and divine beings having plans for humans. Still, that barely makes sense, because they could be having plans for mind flayers, rhakshasas and dragons, instead. The fact that most gods are humanoid or human-ish doesn't make sense either, but meh. Let's just claim that most powerful creatures are inherently atheistic.

Lycanthromancer

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Re: Underpowered Mundanes or Overpowered Magic - Which is worse?
« Reply #38 on: December 26, 2010, 04:29:36 PM »
@Bauglir/Lycanthromancer:

That is not how biology works.
Not in our world. But D&D worlds don't work like ours does.

And anyway, human evolution has gotten to the point where we adapt behaviorally, not physically, to any environment or situation we find ourselves in. We also adapt our surroundings to our own uses.

All humans would get the same abilities, or a large percentage of population would have the same abilities at least. There won't be a few superpowered people coming out of nowhere. If there is a gene that allows people to shoot fire off of their fingertips, either that ability spreads in population, assuming it's useful, or then it disappears, assuming it is not. More the natural selection works on the population, more probable it is that this will happen. Only other real option is that the race splits into two, which is probably what happened with elves/humans/dwarves, but still, all members of a given race should be more homogenous if you were to explain this through natural selection.
Behaviors, not physical adaptations. And in a world where physics is a lot more flexible, you can have some people able to punch through walls and others that can breathe fire.

Not to mention interbreeding with magical creatures over the course of generations.

Further, in a world with dragons and stuff, people wouldn't most probably learn to throw fireballs. They'd learn to hide and camouflage themselves, or then they'd, you know, grow spikes to be less delicious. Or turn poisonous. They wouldn't get a mutation that gives them ridiculous powers over making pacts with demons and blasting stuff with eldritch energy. Dire situations don't lead to superheroes, they lead to bottleneck situations and dead populations. Ever tried to spray insect toxin in a bee hive? Did you get a superpowered bee killing twenty humans? No. You got a lot of dead bees. Those bees didn't have time to evolve, and the situation is exactly the same in human worlds. Settlements are not raided by dragons on regular basis - If they were, there would be no settlements.

If you are desperate for an explanation, the only way to go is try and explain heroisms through religion and divine beings having plans for humans. Still, that barely makes sense, because they could be having plans for mind flayers, rhakshasas and dragons, instead. The fact that most gods are humanoid or human-ish doesn't make sense either, but meh. Let's just claim that most powerful creatures are inherently atheistic.
Behavioral adaptation, interbreeding with more powerful creatures, and altering the world to our benefit through magical and technological means. That's how humans would survive in a hostile world filled with creatures capable of crushing us without a second thought (assuming we survived to that point anyway).

And learning to be awesome is what high levels are all about.
« Last Edit: December 26, 2010, 04:32:05 PM by Lycanthromancer »
[spoiler]Masculine men like masculine things. Masculine men are masculine. Therefore, liking masculine men is masculine.

I dare anyone to find a hole in that logic.
______________________________________
[/spoiler]I'm a writer. These are my stories. Some are even SFW! (Warning: Mostly Gay.)
My awesome poster collection. (Warning, some are NSFW.)
Agita's awesome poster collection.
[spoiler]
+1 Lycanthromancer
Which book is Lycanthromancer in?
Lyca ... is in the book. Yes he is.
 :D
shit.. concerning psionics optimization, lycan IS the book
[/spoiler]

Bauglir

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Re: Underpowered Mundanes or Overpowered Magic - Which is worse?
« Reply #39 on: December 26, 2010, 04:30:15 PM »
@Bauglir/Lycanthromancer:

That is not how biology works. All humans would get the same abilities, or a large percentage of popualation would have the same abilities at least. There won't be a few superpowered people coming out of nowhere. If there is a gene that allows people to shoot fire off of their fingertips, either that ability spreads in population, assuming it's useful, or then it disappears, assuming it is not. More the natural selection works on the population, more probable it is that this will happen. Only other real option is that the race splits into two, which is probably what happened with elves/humans/dwarves, but still, all members of a given race should be more homogenous if you were to explain this through natural selection.

Further, in a world with dragons and stuff, people wouldn't most probably learn to throw fireballs. They'd learn to hide and camouflage themselves, or then they'd, you know, grow spikes to be less delicious. Or turn poisonous. They wouldn't get a mutation that gives them ridiculous powers over making pacts with demons and blasting stuff with eldritch energy. Dire situations don't lead to superheroes, they lead to bottleneck situations and dead populations. Ever tried to spray insect toxin in a bee hive? Did you get a superpowered bee killing twenty humans? No. You got a lot of dead bees. Those bees didn't have time to evolve, and the situation is exactly the same in human worlds. Settlements are not raided by dragons on regular basis - If they were, there would be no settlements.

If you are desperate for an explanation, the only way to go is try and explain heroisms through religion and divine beings having plans for humans. Still, that barely makes sense, because they could be having plans for mind flayers, rhakshasas and dragons, instead. The fact that most gods are humanoid or human-ish doesn't make sense either, but meh. Let's just claim that most powerful creatures are inherently atheistic.

Pfff, why should they be homogenous? Selection's in effect all the time, all it REALLY says is that high level is genetic, which would be an interesting premise for a setting. But I don't see why, in a world where magic is a tangible force organisms can influence, adaptation wouldn't include the ability to shoot fireballs from your hands. We have beetles that spray streams of burning liquid, shrimp that create stunning shockwaves, and that's all without magic. And quite honestly, "natural selection" doesn't have to be a perfect explanation. It just has to be good enough. It certainly accounts for the unusually high concentration of 18 Int supergeniuses, for instance. So those alleles are more common in the population.
So you end up stuck in an endless loop, unable to act, forever.

In retrospect, much like Keanu Reeves.