Underpowered Mundanes or Overpowered Magic - Which is worse?

[Kuroimaken]

Hi Welcome

We've already addressed this, I was here before you.

Deal with it.

And you think I can't build good encounters? Bitch please. Why don't you go say that to someone that's actually played with me as the MC, hear the peals of laughter at your expense. Fact of the matter is even good encounters can be > 99%ed. It just requires IP proofing measures.

I do not think you can deal good encounters. I think you couldn't be capable of building memorable or exciting encounters either because you are in such infatuation with math that the you'll just keep looking at numbers rather than the thematic elements of building any encounter.

Sunic, I could build a better encounter than you. This right here is a challenge. I'd love for you to take me up on it. Have a third member give us a sample group of four players and have us construct an encounter.

I'll build a better one because I understand the literary & thematic elements and how they work in conjunction with the mechanical aspects of of Dungeons and Dragons better than you.

Oh no he didn't

[juton]

This can only end in hilarity.

[Kuroimaken]

This can only end in hilarity.

Indeed. 

[Mixster]

Well, after 4 of my posts, you still seem to disregard my point, so I'll make it more clear:

My point is that I don't think encounters should be turn overs, PCs should have to think, and adjust.

I don't think level appropriate encounters (however they are defined, I think the strong side of D&D is the CR system, but you might have other options for it), should be a push-over, I don't think you should have 100% succes rate, Because I simply don't agree with your sentiment that if you do not succeed, all of you dies.
Yeah, if you mess up, you might die, but there are still things to get you away from there. And there's things to protect yourself until you can hide. And there are tons of other useful things you can do if you are about to die, like run away. In Ad&d players did this on low levels all the time.

The problem with 20% of resource you keep referring to is that Tier 1 classes really don't use 20% of their resources. Tier 2 Classes rarely do either.

Then you buff 3s and 4s so they can help more. Problem solved. By your own logic, the very Tome you try and dismiss is the solution to your problem.

Yes! Making everyone in the party able to handle the encounters on themselves will surely solve the problem, however that will screw over the CR system, which means you'll have to re-work all the monsters, and then you might as well just start over and make a new game.

[Monotremeancer]

This can only end in hilarity.

Indeed. 

I think I'll make popcorn, who wants some?

Jokes aside, perhaps this could revive The Arena.

[Kuroimaken]

This can only end in hilarity.

Indeed. 

I think I'll make popcorn, who wants some?

Jokes aside, perhaps this could revive The Arena.

Seems like an interesting turn, making encounters that end adventurers instead of adventurers that end encounters. Who wants to set the rules?

[wotmaniac]

Well, after 4 of my posts, you still seem to disregard my point, so I'll make it more clear:

then why are you still trying?  I've figured out that just ignoring him makes him go away quicker.

[Shadowhunter]

I'll help myself to some popcorn.
Either way this turns out, someone will learn something.
If it's Dark_Samurai, Sunic_Flames, Me, you or your grandma or any combination of the previous, this will prove both entertaining and enlightening.

Btw: I'm impressed at the guy that take so high notes in that song and make it sound good. Sure, it still has nothing on this, but still.

[Kuroimaken]

I'll help myself to some popcorn.
Either way this turns out, someone will learn something.
If it's Dark_Samurai, Sunic_Flames, Me, you or your grandma or any combination of the previous, this will prove both entertaining and enlightening.

Btw: I'm impressed at the guy that take so high notes in that song and make it sound good. Sure, it still has nothing on this, but still.

I find that he's mostly falsetto'ing.

[Senevri]

Huh. 8 nine replies since I started writing this, so scratch;

But, combined with the encounter tweak thread, it is definitely an interesting idea.
Back in 339, there was this thread called 'overpowered casters'; Full casters trying to solo equal-CR encounters, with the logic  that if they truly can handle appropriate challenges solo, they are overpowered. They failed, surprisingly much.

But, I find this idea of optimized encounters a rather neat. Or rather, if Sunic could just do a write-up of one of those tier 5-6 destroying encounters, that'd be cool, too.

What I was initially writing was:

I guess it also depends on what refers to as a chance of success; If you're hit with a save-or-die once per encounter, with a DC you only fail on a natural 1, you probably won't live past second level.

Mm... I guess it's a difference between success and need to retry vs. success and the end of character.

[Sunic_Flames]

We've already addressed this, I was here before you.

Deal with it.

Obvious Straw Man is Obvious.

I do not think you can deal good encounters. I think you couldn't be capable of building memorable or exciting encounters either because you are in such infatuation with math that the you'll just keep looking at numbers rather than the thematic elements of building any encounter.

Thou art a fool. Also, Stormwind.

Sunic, I could build a better encounter than you. This right here is a challenge. I'd love for you to take me up on it. Have a third member give us a sample group of four players and have us construct an encounter.

I'll build a better one because I understand the literary & thematic elements and how they work in conjunction with the mechanical aspects of of Dungeons and Dragons better than you.

Says the clown who only plays low levels, who can't tell the difference between subjective and objective, who has admitted to fuck you houserules against his players, has invoked Stormwind (while claiming to understand fluff and crunch working together), and is saying all of those things and more to the exact worst person he could possibly say such things to.

But ok clown. I'll make some new encounters (since I don't want to spoil the ones I've already made) because I'm always happy to beat gimps into the ground, and you're the Monk of the D&D technical expertise world. And I'm not the only one to realize this, as the replied indicate.

[Sunic_Flames]

Well, after 4 of my posts, you still seem to disregard my point, so I'll make it more clear:

My point is that I don't think encounters should be turn overs, PCs should have to think, and adjust.

Hi Welcome

You are not Elennsar (I hope) so do at least pretend you understand Iterative Probability.

I don't think level appropriate encounters (however they are defined, I think the strong side of D&D is the CR system, but you might have other options for it), should be a push-over, I don't think you should have 100% succes rate, Because I simply don't agree with your sentiment that if you do not succeed, all of you dies.
Yeah, if you mess up, you might die, but there are still things to get you away from there. And there's things to protect yourself until you can hide. And there are tons of other useful things you can do if you are about to die, like run away. In Ad&d players did this on low levels all the time.

Lol. CR is mostly inaccurate, so it's only useful as a vague tool of "Ok, you guys are 6 now, so the boss is a Mind Flayer." And there is no getting away from there. You cannot run from fights without teleport, and it doesn't always work even then. Of course first you have to get to the levels where you can teleport, and since you have a coin toss chance to be dead at 6 even with a 99% success rate, and Teleport is 9 you fail. Also it's RLT. So what actually happens is one round goes by, everyone gets the fuck beat out of them, and realizes they might need to GTFO. But they can't, so they either fight anyways and win or fight anyways and die.

The problem with 20% of resource you keep referring to is that Tier 1 classes really don't use 20% of their resources. Tier 2 Classes rarely do either.

20% of resources is fucked anyways. For example, is that 20% of the beatstick's HP before, or after counting healing spells and if the latter, how many? It makes a significant difference between "trivial, and in no way anywhere near 20% resources" to "Hey, that fucker just took 3 times his max HP in damage, and even if he has a personal healbot, he can't be healed fast enough to save him before he dies."

Then you buff 3s and 4s so they can help more. Problem solved. By your own logic, the very Tome you try and dismiss is the solution to your problem.

Yes! Making everyone in the party able to handle the encounters on themselves will surely solve the problem, however that will screw over the CR system, which means you'll have to re-work all the monsters, and then you might as well just start over and make a new game.
[/quote]

*facepalms*

And will someone tell me what tier 5-6s destroying encounters has anything to do with anything? I think it's just more Paizil strawmen, but I have to make sure.

[Soda]

Stay tuned to this thread for more lessons on how to beat a bad meme further into the ground.

Oh, and some stuff about encounters.

[Kuroimaken]

Stay tuned to this thread for more lessons on how to beat a bad meme further into the ground.

Oh, and some stuff about encounters.

Which one of them?

[wotmaniac]

okay, we've now degraded in to this
 

[lans]

A failure doesn't mean that a person dies, not until there are actual save or dies at least. A beat stick might get knocked down to -3 while barbarian shocktroopers the thing to oblivion or the fighter bull rushes it off a cliff or intimidate locks it.

It might though.

As for running a way you can use wall spells, grease, silent image or even some mundane things like marbles or tangle foot  bags to cover an escape route.

[Senevri]

@wotmaniac: I was sorta expecting the successful troll at this point.

But, seriously, I'm interested in what Sunic - or anyone else interested - comes up with, for the encounters.

[Prime32]

okay, we've now degraded in to this
 

The message for attempting to view the site from the UK or Ireland was funny at least.

[wotmaniac]

@wotmaniac: I was sorta expecting the successful troll at this point.

But, seriously, I'm interested in what Sunic - or anyone else interested - comes up with, for the encounters.

oops -- my bad

[Sunic_Flames]

A failure doesn't mean that a person dies, not until there are actual save or dies at least. A beat stick might get knocked down to -3 while barbarian shocktroopers the thing to oblivion or the fighter bull rushes it off a cliff or intimidate locks it.

It might though.

As for running a way you can use wall spells, grease, silent image or even some mundane things like marbles or tangle foot  bags to cover an escape route.

Except that the window between fine and dead is... 11 points. Which is one hit at level 1, and only goes down from there. In any case, 99% success or whatever is counting that.

Also, walls of the non force variety only slow enemies for a round, if that. Except it took you a round to throw them up. I am also curious as to how the beatsticks are doing those things while at -3 and unconscious. Nevermind the whole laughability of a conveniently placed cliff. Or a Cha 15 Fighter.