Author Topic: Underpowered Mundanes or Overpowered Magic - Which is worse?  (Read 122152 times)

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Endarire

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Underpowered Mundanes or Overpowered Magic - Which is worse?
« on: December 24, 2010, 11:38:36 PM »
We already know that, at least in D&D 3.5, that MAGIC > else.

Many want to boost non-casters while nerfing casters.  Both notions are understandable and, sometimes, admirable.

Which is these is the greater problem?
-Magic can do anything fairly easily.
-Mundane things require great effort to do their best tricks, which can't compete with able casters.

Of course, give your reasons.

For me, it's the weak mundanes.  My groupmates like being The Warrior Who Throws His Scythe or The Gnome Bard Who Wants To Be A Master of Masks.  The system already allows for epic epicness with spells- the definitive level-appropriate abilities- but offers so many trap options that non-experts and those who only plan their characters while at the table are misled.
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skydragonknight

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Re: Underpowered Mundanes or Overpowered Magic - Which is worse?
« Reply #1 on: December 24, 2010, 11:53:05 PM »
Druid is now Wildshape Mystic Ranger who gets a full AC (but still at 4th so not a Fighter replacement).
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Re: Underpowered Mundanes or Overpowered Magic - Which is worse?
« Reply #2 on: December 25, 2010, 12:09:32 AM »
Overpowered magic easily

With magic it becomes an arms race that gets out of hand real quick without gentlemen's agreements.

SorO_Lost

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Re: Underpowered Mundanes or Overpowered Magic - Which is worse?
« Reply #3 on: December 25, 2010, 12:29:34 AM »
idk.

Much of the magic tricks we speak of here are TO (time altering genesis), 17th level (dire turtle time stop to w/e), or at least 15th level (greater celerity). In the lower levels, Shrink Item & Explosive Runes are the leading examples of magic ruling the world. Both fall short of Battle Jump's ability to grant a person 200 damage off a move action. As for battlefield control, grease, glitterdust, even black tentacles. Grappling is still viable at low levels, so to are Marbles, Tanglefoot Bags, Harpoons, and of course Spiked Chains.

Of course, I'm speaking battle only here.
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Re: Underpowered Mundanes or Overpowered Magic - Which is worse?
« Reply #4 on: December 25, 2010, 02:40:53 AM »
Eh, in most games I play full-casters, properly played, dominate all else. It's not even the specific overpowered tricks we like to talk about, it's just the, "Oh, yeah, I've got a spell for that." For instance? Rakshasa opponent is near death, so he basically just triggers his adjacent construct to explode (I'm not sure what, exactly it was; maybe homebrew). Then he teleports away before it goes. Party Wizard has Improved Counterspell and Teleport prepared today; "No, you don't."

Or the Druid who manages to fight off, singlehandedly, an encounter that disabled the rest of the party.

Honestly, both are a problem to an extent. Casters ought not be quite as insanely powerful as they are. It does depend on setting to an extent; if you want a game centering around traveling to a particular goal, a campaign with teleport is probably a bad idea. Still, a caster's ability to short-circuit the story with a less obvious spell or combination is problematic. I don't exactly mean that railroading is to be defended, I just mean that casters are capable of totally bypassing plot points, and I don't think all DMs should be expected to deal with that. Meanwhile, the Fighter gets to deal a bunch of damage with his greatsword. Hooray. They need to be able to affect the plot to whatever extent casters are allowed, but neither should be able to completely bypass it.
« Last Edit: December 25, 2010, 05:08:59 AM by Bauglir »
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Re: Underpowered Mundanes or Overpowered Magic - Which is worse?
« Reply #5 on: December 25, 2010, 02:53:19 AM »
I believe nerfing OP casting is the way to go, rather than boosting mundanes. WotC wrote the mundane stuff in the idea that they could do things, and they can shine in no-magic campaigns. The creative stuff just gets shipped to the back when day-long buffs and battlefield control take precedence.
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Re: Underpowered Mundanes or Overpowered Magic - Which is worse?
« Reply #6 on: December 25, 2010, 09:30:39 AM »
Weak beatsticks. After all, the enemies still slaughter them, regardless of whether or not their allies can handle said enemies. Why? Because everyone can keep up but them. It's either make beatsticks stop sucking a barrel of cocks, or make everyone else start sucking it. And the latter way lies 4.Fail.
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Ramaloke

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Re: Underpowered Mundanes or Overpowered Magic - Which is worse?
« Reply #7 on: December 25, 2010, 09:37:49 AM »
A combination of the following might help fix things:

A limited recharge magic with heightened exhaustion mechanics. Make them on curable, no-nonsense debuffs that actually matter. Make it so that yes, the wizard has his epic power but to use it he becomes vulnerable.

Change many of the powerful utility spells into incantations that can be done by anybody with the know how, the wizard and cleric will still most likely be in the know, but they'll need the groups help to pull it off.

Make it so any spell that is not a direct damage spell or a de/buff is much longer to cast so it cant be done in combat so easily.

Add an Psionic Focus-like component to spells.

Another thing that might "fix" things somewhat is to make a low level version of epic spellcasting that replaces learning new spells. Make it so that costs are prohibitive for big bang effects and require mitigation. Backlash damage is a bitch.

Make every spell SR: Yes, and change the SR mechanics to a flat % to ignore the spell. It'll add d100 rolls to the game which are weird but it makes SR more dangerous. SR Bumps might be needed across the board for monsters. If a monster has a nice 40% chance to ignore magic it suddenly makes the noncaster much more useful.
« Last Edit: December 25, 2010, 09:50:05 AM by Ramaloke »
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skydragonknight

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Re: Underpowered Mundanes or Overpowered Magic - Which is worse?
« Reply #8 on: December 25, 2010, 09:56:43 AM »
Make every spell SR: Yes, and change the SR mechanics to a flat % to ignore the spell. It'll add d100 rolls to the game which are weird but it makes SR more dangerous. SR Bumps might be needed across the board for monsters. If a monster has a nice 40% chance to ignore magic it suddenly makes the noncaster much more useful.

I agree, since casters can get miss chances to avoid damage from non-caster. Only fair the reverse be possible.
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Re: Underpowered Mundanes or Overpowered Magic - Which is worse?
« Reply #9 on: December 25, 2010, 10:17:15 AM »
The gist of the issue is that 3.5E is, first and foremost, a simulationist system. It's not narrativist or gamist, it's simulationist. What's more, it's a high-fantasy-system. Therein lies the basis of the imbalance-problem. See, it is important that awesome stuff can happen, since this is high-fantasy. I mean, high-fantasy isn't that high unless awesome stuff happens. Now, because we are running this with a simulationist mindset, we have to justify how that awesome stuff happened...

It's magic. It has to be. You cannot explain a huge explosive fireball coming out of nowhere without magic, if you are dealing with a world where a well-crafted sword demonstrates the top-level technology. Alchemist's fire could be a bit stronger, yeah, but it can't be something that blows regiments out without problems. That would be weird, and that would actually be pretty high-tech, I mean, our grenades can't do it to this day. And what's more..

It can't be that powerful. If it was, everyone and their mother would be using it. Follow simple instructions and receive great power over human lifes, sign me in. Everyone isn't using magic because magic is hard, and it's ambiguous nature allows us to skip some explanations regarding it. We don't have to go into great depth to explain why or why not with magic. With technology, we do have to.

So, in short, awesome stuff needs to happen, and it needs to be explained. Only way to do that is with magic, and as a result, magic can be awesome and mundane cannot.

The options available:
A: Tone down magic - The issue with this one is that the setting loses a lot of the feeling. There will be no great magic monsters to destroy, and no cool explosions. This is doable, but leads to low-fantasy setting, which is not what 3.5E is trying to convey.
B: Restrict Access to Magic for PCs - This is more plausible, but still lame. Either this leads to "If they can do it, why I can't?", or then "If they can do it, why they haven't taken over the world, since no one else can?", if restricted to high-enough-level. In the latter case, this also assumes that player's wont reach this level, so it only limits imbalance to lower levels. In any case, this screws over the idea of simulationist system, and turns more to a gamist one, like 4E did by limiting world-shaping spells.
B: Make mundane awesome, too - This is directly against the simulationist idea. No one will ever be good enough to create dragons out of nowhere, no matter how good they are with handcrafts. Mundane can get to a pretty decent combat presence, but it'd still be limited. No man will learn to fly without magic, for example. We just cannot justify awesome with mundane means, unless we leave the realm of fantasy and venture in the world of science-fiction: See Shadowrun for an example.
C: Give everyone magic - This, however, has no real problems. In a world where dragons are commonplace, it would make sense for humans to develop "natural" magic, after all.

I'm currently toying around with this idea in a setting/system I am in the process of creating. Basically, there is sorcery, which is innate magic. Most people are using sorcery, hell, they don't even know it. It's an inner resource they can use to accomplish stuff, often tied with their skills. It takes a lot of time to learn to apply sorcery to a specific action, so to magically pick locks, you need to be pretty good at picking locks to begin with. To be able to slice walls with a sword, you'll have to be a great swordsman. To be able to turn invisible, you have to be stealthy and to charm people, you have to be a good speaker. That kind of thing.

Wizardry is an exception; It is basically borrowing the sorcery of another person, and is often based on pacts. You make a deal with someone to be able to use their lockpicking skills without them actually being there. There are costs assorted, of course, and you can only borrow your skills to a limited amount of people at a time, and logically, allowing someone to open locks with great accuracy is not something you give away for free. In my setting, there are also devils/demons/dragons/creatures with innate abilities that are like spells, like fireballs, and wizards can make pacts with them to gain access to abilities like this. You gain access to the sorcerous ability of a dragon to breathe flames, for example. Stronger the dragon, stronger the breath. Of course, your skill at wizardry determines your ability to make pacts, and to use them.

I am not sure where divine magic will be. Either it will be some kind of unreliable wizardry derived from gods, or then it will be different. I am not sure. I kind of want to distinquish it more. Flashs of insight is an idea. Another is completely screwing divinity, and saying that there are no gods, or that they don't care about you enough to give you powers. I thought about them giving gifts, like magic items or changing your physical body. A devout worshipper of a dragon god could receive wings in return for a long devotion, for an example. Currently, that is the one I like the most.

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Re: Underpowered Mundanes or Overpowered Magic - Which is worse?
« Reply #10 on: December 25, 2010, 10:48:38 AM »
B: Make mundane awesome, too - This is directly against the simulationist idea. No one will ever be good enough to create dragons out of nowhere, no matter how good they are with handcrafts. Mundane can get to a pretty decent combat presence, but it'd still be limited. No man will learn to fly without magic, for example. We just cannot justify awesome with mundane means, unless we leave the realm of fantasy and venture in the world of science-fiction: See Shadowrun for an example.
If you give up magic, you'd better be getting something awesome in return. Fighter vs. wizard should look like this (watch the whole thing).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nKOW7-yEqdI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S4leDKwNWZI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kT97lIyTJ64
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Re: Underpowered Mundanes or Overpowered Magic - Which is worse?
« Reply #11 on: December 25, 2010, 10:54:26 AM »
The Manga/Anime Fairy Tail is a good example of everyone important having magic yet there still being many people who can punch/slice the crap out of others.
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raith0

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Re: Underpowered Mundanes or Overpowered Magic - Which is worse?
« Reply #12 on: December 25, 2010, 11:39:18 AM »
The real problem with magic is that we have non-combat spells that do away with classes all together,  and summons for in combat that do the same.  i think an bump up in the scalling of mundane combat powers wouldnt be a bad thing.  and i came up with a system for 3.5 that does it rather well.  its in the homebrew section and my group loves the new menuever system that i created.  but if we can get rid of spells like knock and the summon xxx lines we tone down magic in a way that we just dont get around having group effort at higher levels from that end. and if we make melee and mundane combat options still as strong at higher levels then we lose most of the imbalance but known of the flavor/feel of the system. 

I come from a school of thought that since it is magic it should be more powerfull than the guy swinging a sword 3 million times to get better.  its just a matter of how much better should it be, and should we have some limiting factors on the ones using magic?

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Re: Underpowered Mundanes or Overpowered Magic - Which is worse?
« Reply #13 on: December 25, 2010, 11:48:15 AM »
Unbreakable skin and clothes, ability to move faster than sound and to fly upwards while applying force through kicks to something above you and it not slowing you down. Let's not start about the part where he creates winds while opening the life gate. Oh, or the ribbons perfectly engulfing his target at a speed that is impossible of such object, considering air resistance and their weight. Or the ability to move faster than light and stop to hover in midair, and to not burn. Or to take any damage to your fists and feet for kicking stuff at that speed. Or the explosion in the ground after he opened the wound gate. Or the unbreakable ribbon. Or the fact that he never got any sand in his eyes.

So, by giving up magic, you get to break laws of physics, I.E: do magic? :eh

Even if we stop looking at the details, it is important to realize that he still lost, despite being, from what I can understand, one of the best if not the best mundane fighter in that world. Further, if Gaara is among the higher powered casters in that world, it's nothing compared to 3.5E. Making sandshields hardly compares to creating your own plane and stopping time just because you feel like it. Don't even get me started on epic magic moving mountains to get a better view from your mansion. That, and the sandmage would still have vastly superior out-of-combat options, such as, you know, making buildings and transporting friends. And if the shield moved regardless of his will, better protection when unconscious, asleep or surprised. And since there seemed to be no limit to the amount of sand he could control, why not bring a bit more than a jug, like, you know, a desert. Then drown your opponent in it. I mean, just throw it all atop him and his body won't have enough chemical energy to move it anyway, so he'll drown.

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Re: Underpowered Mundanes or Overpowered Magic - Which is worse?
« Reply #14 on: December 25, 2010, 12:56:28 PM »
Even if we stop looking at the details, it is important to realize that he still lost, despite being, from what I can understand, one of the best if not the best mundane fighter in that world.
He's not. IIRC his master (who can use magic, but prefers not to) can move so fast he catches fire and destroy forests by punching the air. There are plenty of better fighters, but most work magic into their martial arts somehow.

Quote
Further, if Gaara is among the higher powered casters in that world, it's nothing compared to 3.5E. Making sandshields hardly compares to creating your own plane and stopping time just because you feel like it. Don't even get me started on epic magic moving mountains to get a better view from your mansion.
He isn't. And there are casters who can create dimensions and move mountains, even rewrite reality. As well as defensive and movement techniques far superior to the ones in the video.

Quote
That, and the sandmage would still have vastly superior out-of-combat options, such as, you know, making buildings and transporting friends.
True.

Quote
And if the shield moved regardless of his will, better protection when unconscious, asleep or surprised.
That fight was actually the first time he was ever injured.

Quote
And since there seemed to be no limit to the amount of sand he could control, why not bring a bit more than a jug, like, you know, a desert. Then drown your opponent in it. I mean, just throw it all atop him and his body won't have enough chemical energy to move it anyway, so he'll drown.
He does this in a later fight. The sand he carries around with him is easier to manipulate since it's soaked with mana, but he can also create sand from surrounding minerals.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NjybB4oBcdY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ZvBEosF6O4


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oOoM3O8eOLM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sNxRewlMa_Y
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OadjdHo2mXg
« Last Edit: December 25, 2010, 01:03:14 PM by Prime32 »
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The tier system in a nutshell:
[spoiler]Tier 6: A cartographer.
Tier 5: An expert cartographer or a decent marksman.
Tier 4: An expert marksman.
Tier 3: An expert marksman, cartographer and chef who can tie strong knots and is trained in hostage negotiation or a marksman so good he can shoot down every bullet fired by a minigun while armed with a rusted single-shot pistol that veers to the left.
Tier 2: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything, or the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.
Tier 1: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything and the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.[/spoiler]

Gods_Trick

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Re: Underpowered Mundanes or Overpowered Magic - Which is worse?
« Reply #15 on: December 25, 2010, 01:10:34 PM »

  Naruto would be a good benchmark for what I'd like to see in my high fantasy.  Spells are uber, but somehow, fighters can and do kickass. The fact that 'spells' and 'melee' techniques derive from chakra is probably a good fix.

  Underpowered mundanes are definitely the problem.

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Re: Underpowered Mundanes or Overpowered Magic - Which is worse?
« Reply #16 on: December 25, 2010, 01:43:35 PM »
Still, most of those abilities would be at the very least supernatural, if not spell-like, in D&D terms. Not exactly nonmagical or mundane. Just magical, derived from other sources.

Basically, it's giving all characters some form of limited magic ability, which is kind of what I suggested.

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Re: Underpowered Mundanes or Overpowered Magic - Which is worse?
« Reply #17 on: December 25, 2010, 01:44:40 PM »
The issue with the 'simulationist' idea is that there is no one on earth who is over 6th level. It's the pinnacle of human achievement. Athletes who can break world records just by getting out of bed in the morning. Physicists that redefine reality before lunch.

We're talking the best of the best that humanity has to offer.

Once you hit level 7, you're talking superhuman. Once you pass it, you're into territory that perhaps only one or two people in the history of the world have achieved, and the paradigm must shift.

Either give mundanes some goodies to simulate this (which ToB does, as do a few other classes, such as factotums) or it's not a simulation so much as a magic-fest with (N)PC normals watching the fireworks.

High level mundanes should be running on water, balancing on clouds, unlocking the most complicated locks with a quick rap of the knuckles, breaking down walls with their bare hands, sliding between shadows invisibly, tearing out enemy spines with their teeth, hurling knives accurately enough to slice the wings off a fly at a thousand paces, leaping mountains without a running start, and so on.

In short, 'mundanes' are no longer 'mundane'. They're extraordinary.
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Gods_Trick

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Re: Underpowered Mundanes or Overpowered Magic - Which is worse?
« Reply #18 on: December 25, 2010, 01:45:29 PM »
Still, most of those abilities would be at the very least supernatural, if not spell-like, in D&D terms. Not exactly nonmagical or mundane. Just magical, derived from other sources.

Basically, it's giving all characters some form of limited magic ability, which is kind of what I suggested.

+1

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Re: Underpowered Mundanes or Overpowered Magic - Which is worse?
« Reply #19 on: December 25, 2010, 01:48:00 PM »
Unbreakable skin and clothes, ability to move faster than sound and to fly upwards while applying force through kicks to something above you and it not slowing you down. Let's not start about the part where he creates winds while opening the life gate. Oh, or the ribbons perfectly engulfing his target at a speed that is impossible of such object, considering air resistance and their weight. Or the ability to move faster than light and stop to hover in midair, and to not burn. Or to take any damage to your fists and feet for kicking stuff at that speed. Or the explosion in the ground after he opened the wound gate. Or the unbreakable ribbon. Or the fact that he never got any sand in his eyes.

So, by giving up magic, you get to break laws of physics, I.E: do magic? :eh

Even if we stop looking at the details, it is important to realize that he still lost, despite being, from what I can understand, one of the best if not the best mundane fighter in that world. Further, if Gaara is among the higher powered casters in that world, it's nothing compared to 3.5E. Making sandshields hardly compares to creating your own plane and stopping time just because you feel like it. Don't even get me started on epic magic moving mountains to get a better view from your mansion. That, and the sandmage would still have vastly superior out-of-combat options, such as, you know, making buildings and transporting friends. And if the shield moved regardless of his will, better protection when unconscious, asleep or surprised. And since there seemed to be no limit to the amount of sand he could control, why not bring a bit more than a jug, like, you know, a desert. Then drown your opponent in it. I mean, just throw it all atop him and his body won't have enough chemical energy to move it anyway, so he'll drown.
That is, I think, the whole point.
D&D mundanes don't even reach the rather low standards for superpowered melee, PRESUMING weaker casters. D&D casters are significantly stronger than most fictional casters, and even these weaker casters in high powered melee settings can give them endless trouble.

So while casters do have a number of excesses, mundanes are far too limited to stand, except in a setting with swords and no sorcery.
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