Author Topic: Mundane answers to time stop?  (Read 10519 times)

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Bozwevial

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Re: Mundane answers to time stop?
« Reply #40 on: December 20, 2010, 01:32:12 AM »
Use Kensai to imbue your fists to make them qualify for being a weapon of legacy?
I think if you manage to kill a caster with your fists, your mother's uterus should become a weapon of legacy for producing something that impossible.


SorO_Lost

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Re: Mundane answers to time stop?
« Reply #42 on: December 20, 2010, 03:46:16 AM »
Now wait a minute. No one is saying fists suck, only monks and mundane.

Unarmed attacks are by far the greatest weapon in D&D.

Why? Which reason do you want?
Unsunderable?
Undisarmable?
Damage? Say 2d6 (superior unarmed strike) and you're already sporting the base damage of any weapon.
More damage? Unlike mundane weapons unarmed strikes can continually improve. For instance two levels in psychic fighter jumps the damage to 4d6.
Multiple Attacks. Snap Kick adds a second attack to everything you do. Literally everything, free punch them in the face for using Shivering Touch.
More multiple attacks! Circle Kick flat out doubles your attacks if there is a second opponent near you.
Price? Necklace of Natural Weapons costs 900gp and enchants your natural weapon just fine. Thats what? A 600 gold difference? Ignorable.
Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
[spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
[/spoiler]

Bozwevial

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Re: Mundane answers to time stop?
« Reply #43 on: December 20, 2010, 04:04:50 AM »
And in this case, the character in question would be a Forsaker/Kensai. So yeah, fists might not suck, but here they do.

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Mundane answers to time stop?
« Reply #44 on: December 20, 2010, 04:08:30 AM »
Multiple Attacks. Snap Kick adds a second attack to everything you do. Literally everything, free punch them in the face for using Shivering Touch.
Circle kick was "Revised for v.3.5; renamed Roundabout Kick", and the feat's new effect of "if you crit on an unarmed attack, you can make an additional unarmed attack against the same opponent at the same attack bonus" is pretty bad.

The range/reach of unarmed attacks is bad.  As is their powerattackability.
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Solo

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Re: Mundane answers to time stop?
« Reply #45 on: December 20, 2010, 06:07:16 AM »
Forsaker/Kensai? What's an... unusual combination.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2010, 06:19:31 AM by Solo »

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Prime32

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Re: Mundane answers to time stop?
« Reply #46 on: December 20, 2010, 06:20:39 PM »
Use Kensai to imbue your fists to make them qualify for being a weapon of legacy?
I think if you manage to kill a caster with your fists, your mother's uterus should become a weapon of legacy for producing something that impossible.
See, I like to think of "monk vs wizard" as "bear vs human".

Obviously, an unprepared man casually walking through the woods could be killed by a bear. However, a man who goes into the woods with the intention of fighting a bear will almost certainly win unless he is an idiot. He can shoot the bear with tranquiliser darts (or just plain blow its head off), drive around in an armoured vehicle faster than the bear can run, track bear movement patterns by GPS, call in more humans or hunting animals for assistance... and that's if he's not taking things seriously. If he's crazy enough he could set fire to the forest or snipe the bear from a helicopter. Imagine how one-sided things would be if the human race suddenly had to exterminate all bears.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2010, 08:12:27 PM by Prime32 »
My work
The tier system in a nutshell:
[spoiler]Tier 6: A cartographer.
Tier 5: An expert cartographer or a decent marksman.
Tier 4: An expert marksman.
Tier 3: An expert marksman, cartographer and chef who can tie strong knots and is trained in hostage negotiation or a marksman so good he can shoot down every bullet fired by a minigun while armed with a rusted single-shot pistol that veers to the left.
Tier 2: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything, or the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.
Tier 1: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything and the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.[/spoiler]

Sunic_Flames

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Re: Mundane answers to time stop?
« Reply #47 on: December 20, 2010, 07:56:43 PM »
Giacomo clown trolling there are ya?
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[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

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[/spoiler]

Prime32

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Re: Mundane answers to time stop?
« Reply #48 on: December 20, 2010, 08:01:22 PM »
Giacomo clown trolling there are ya?
Well, maybe I should have clarified. The difference is that humans don't have guns built into their bodies. An "unprepared" wizard would be something like an NPC without combat experience, who would rather cast light a bunch of times than set people on fire.

Adventurer wizards are more like the aforementioned guys who bring military helicopters to attack bears while they're standing in the open.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2010, 08:14:31 PM by Prime32 »
My work
The tier system in a nutshell:
[spoiler]Tier 6: A cartographer.
Tier 5: An expert cartographer or a decent marksman.
Tier 4: An expert marksman.
Tier 3: An expert marksman, cartographer and chef who can tie strong knots and is trained in hostage negotiation or a marksman so good he can shoot down every bullet fired by a minigun while armed with a rusted single-shot pistol that veers to the left.
Tier 2: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything, or the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.
Tier 1: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything and the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.[/spoiler]

Echoes

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Re: Mundane answers to time stop?
« Reply #49 on: December 20, 2010, 09:46:23 PM »
Forcecage states that the barred cell is "as Wall of Force".
implicitly immune to antimagic field, not explicitly, as you claimed. 

Sunic picked the wrong text to make his argument with, but he's still right. The necessary text is "Like a wall of force spell, a forcecage resists dispel magic", which means forcecage inherits this text from wall of force: "it is unaffected by most spells, including dispel magic."

In short, wall of force's immunity to dispel magic is not a specific one, but rather a part of it's general immunity to magic. Forcecage specifically inherits this, making it immune to the same spells as wall of force.
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The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Mundane answers to time stop?
« Reply #50 on: December 20, 2010, 10:40:17 PM »
Forcecage states that the barred cell is "as Wall of Force".
implicitly immune to antimagic field, not explicitly, as you claimed. 

Sunic picked the wrong text to make his argument with, but he's still right. The necessary text is "Like a wall of force spell, a forcecage resists dispel magic", which means forcecage inherits this text from wall of force: "it is unaffected by most spells, including dispel magic."

In short, wall of force's immunity to dispel magic is not a specific one, but rather a part of it's general immunity to magic. Forcecage specifically inherits this, making it immune to the same spells as wall of force.
I don't think that actually implies that.

Now, I can see the pure planes version being made of "walls of force" implying that those planes share wall of force's immunity, and the barreed version not (since it's not based on the spell).
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SorO_Lost

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Re: Mundane answers to time stop?
« Reply #51 on: December 21, 2010, 04:40:10 AM »
Multiple Attacks. Snap Kick adds a second attack to everything you do. Literally everything, free punch them in the face for using Shivering Touch.
Circle kick was "Revised for v.3.5; renamed Roundabout Kick", and the feat's new effect of "if you crit on an unarmed attack, you can make an additional unarmed attack against the same opponent at the same attack bonus" is pretty bad.

The range/reach of unarmed attacks is bad.  As is their powerattackability.
They lose +20 damage from power attack but in exchange can make several more attacks. So it comes down to do the extra attacks make up the 80 point difference and are we talking charging only or everything else?

Reach sucks, of course. Melee weapons tend to.

Shame Circle Kick got nerfed but it's a good thing really.
Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
[spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
[/spoiler]

veekie

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Re: Mundane answers to time stop?
« Reply #52 on: December 21, 2010, 06:32:11 AM »
Giacomo clown trolling there are ya?
Well, maybe I should have clarified. The difference is that humans don't have guns built into their bodies. An "unprepared" wizard would be something like an NPC without combat experience, who would rather cast light a bunch of times than set people on fire.

Adventurer wizards are more like the aforementioned guys who bring military helicopters to attack bears while they're standing in the open.
I sorta picture Adventurer wizards as nutters with full access to a military airfield cum armory and limited by only how much equipment they can sign out at once.

Though...the monk is less a bear than a hippo. They're dangerous only if you practically leap down their throats(in which case they can be pretty dangerous.
Bears are Fighters and Barbarians. They can dish out alot and if you run into one by surprise and without the appropriate equipment(guns would be par for the course for adventurer wizard equivalents, specialized combat wizards would be packing bazookas and a really prepared wizard would have genetically engineered Anti-Bear bioweapons/robot army).
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[/spoiler]

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Sunic_Flames

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Re: Mundane answers to time stop?
« Reply #53 on: December 21, 2010, 10:28:41 AM »
Forcecage states that the barred cell is "as Wall of Force".
implicitly immune to antimagic field, not explicitly, as you claimed. 

Sunic picked the wrong text to make his argument with, but he's still right. The necessary text is "Like a wall of force spell, a forcecage resists dispel magic", which means forcecage inherits this text from wall of force: "it is unaffected by most spells, including dispel magic."

In short, wall of force's immunity to dispel magic is not a specific one, but rather a part of it's general immunity to magic. Forcecage specifically inherits this, making it immune to the same spells as wall of force.

Well yeah, except that we're talking about AMF and not Dispel Magic, and to find the text about AMF's interactions with a Wall of Force you have to check AMF, not Wall of Force.
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[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

Psithief

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Re: Mundane answers to time stop?
« Reply #54 on: December 22, 2010, 04:12:25 AM »
The only mundane solution to time stop is to live on a mundane plane.

Like the one I live on! Also it's real, so that's a bonus.

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Mundane answers to time stop?
« Reply #55 on: December 22, 2010, 04:16:02 AM »
The only mundane solution to time stop is to live on a mundane plane.

Like the one I live on! Also it's real, so that's a bonus.
Is it mundane?  How do you know?

It could just be that there don't happen to be any magical dudes around, but if hypothetically a magical dude were to show up he'd still work fine.
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Echoes

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Re: Mundane answers to time stop?
« Reply #56 on: December 23, 2010, 07:25:28 PM »
Forcecage states that the barred cell is "as Wall of Force".
implicitly immune to antimagic field, not explicitly, as you claimed. 

Sunic picked the wrong text to make his argument with, but he's still right. The necessary text is "Like a wall of force spell, a forcecage resists dispel magic", which means forcecage inherits this text from wall of force: "it is unaffected by most spells, including dispel magic."

In short, wall of force's immunity to dispel magic is not a specific one, but rather a part of it's general immunity to magic. Forcecage specifically inherits this, making it immune to the same spells as wall of force.

Well yeah, except that we're talking about AMF and not Dispel Magic, and to find the text about AMF's interactions with a Wall of Force you have to check AMF, not Wall of Force.

Wall of force is immune to antimagic field and dispel magic because of the same property: being immune to all spells save those specifically mentioned somewhere. Hence if forcecage inherits the immunity to dispel magic, it also inherits the immunity to antimagic field and every other spell that isn't specifically called out as affecting a wall of force or forcecage.
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As a general rule, murdering people and taking their stuff is pretty much superior to breaking their stuff, murdering them, then not having any stuff to take.

Out of Context Theater
[spoiler]
Oh I'll make a party. I'll make a party so hard... I'll make a party that makes you feel so awkward downstairs.

You'll see the party and only be able to respond, "Oh yeah baby."
[/spoiler]

Sunic_Flames

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Re: Mundane answers to time stop?
« Reply #57 on: December 23, 2010, 09:20:22 PM »
Forcecage states that the barred cell is "as Wall of Force".
implicitly immune to antimagic field, not explicitly, as you claimed. 

Sunic picked the wrong text to make his argument with, but he's still right. The necessary text is "Like a wall of force spell, a forcecage resists dispel magic", which means forcecage inherits this text from wall of force: "it is unaffected by most spells, including dispel magic."

In short, wall of force's immunity to dispel magic is not a specific one, but rather a part of it's general immunity to magic. Forcecage specifically inherits this, making it immune to the same spells as wall of force.

Well yeah, except that we're talking about AMF and not Dispel Magic, and to find the text about AMF's interactions with a Wall of Force you have to check AMF, not Wall of Force.

Wall of force is immune to antimagic field and dispel magic because of the same property: being immune to all spells save those specifically mentioned somewhere. Hence if forcecage inherits the immunity to dispel magic, it also inherits the immunity to antimagic field and every other spell that isn't specifically called out as affecting a wall of force or forcecage.

Um yeah. I kinda said that.
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If you hear this music, run.

And don't forget:


There is no greater contribution than Hi Welcome.

Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.

IP proofing and avoiding being CAPed OR - how to make characters relevant in the long term.

Friends don't let friends be Short Bus Hobos.

[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]