Author Topic: What does it take to be effective in melee?  (Read 61424 times)

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Solo

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Re: What does it take to be effective in melee?
« Reply #20 on: December 14, 2010, 11:50:42 PM »
Quote
Aragorn can't be missed by the troll; his leather armor is nothing compared to the Huge creature and it's massive strength.
Aragon had Elusive Target, and the Troll was Power Attacking to full.

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weenog

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Re: What does it take to be effective in melee?
« Reply #21 on: December 14, 2010, 11:52:04 PM »
I want to see a commoner build go up against that whale thing with the crapload of racial HD and LA and no Con score.
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Tenebrus

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Re: What does it take to be effective in melee?
« Reply #22 on: December 14, 2010, 11:54:23 PM »
Quote
Aragorn can't be missed by the troll; his leather armor is nothing compared to the Huge creature and it's massive strength.
Aragon had Elusive Target, and the Troll was Power Attacking to full.
Okay, now have Morgoth miss Fingolfin 7 times using the D&D mechanic.

lans

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Re: What does it take to be effective in melee?
« Reply #23 on: December 14, 2010, 11:57:45 PM »
Little exercise
Level
Orc
2 barbarian/8fighter
18Strength+4 racial+2 level+4 enhancement+4 rage=32
Melee greatsword 10BA+11str+2 focus+2 weapon=25/20
Damage 2d6+2 enhancement+2spec+16 strength=27*(.95+.7)=44.55

Noncore brings in melee weapon mastery instead of greater weapon focus, and whirling frenzy variant. I also forgot to use boots of speed.
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Amechra

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Re: What does it take to be effective in melee?
« Reply #24 on: December 14, 2010, 11:59:14 PM »
Quote
Aragorn can't be missed by the troll; his leather armor is nothing compared to the Huge creature and it's massive strength.
Aragon had Elusive Target, and the Troll was Power Attacking to full.
Okay, now have Morgoth miss Fingolfin 7 times using the D&D mechanic.

Great, now you're bringing gishes into it (Fingolfin could use magic, and Morgoth was less combat focused and more of a minion guy, iirc.)

BAB check for armor class sounds interesting; kind of like the feat Melee Evasion, only better.
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Sounds fine to me.
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Tenebrus

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Re: What does it take to be effective in melee?
« Reply #25 on: December 15, 2010, 02:36:56 AM »
Quote
Aragorn can't be missed by the troll; his leather armor is nothing compared to the Huge creature and it's massive strength.
Aragon had Elusive Target, and the Troll was Power Attacking to full.
Okay, now have Morgoth miss Fingolfin 7 times using the D&D mechanic.

Great, now you're bringing gishes into it (Fingolfin could use magic, and Morgoth was less combat focused and more of a minion guy, iirc.)

BAB check for armor class sounds interesting; kind of like the feat Melee Evasion, only better.

Not that this is really the point, but Morgoth was a god and Fingolfin had to sing for a few minutes to cast a "spell."  Morgoth was a huge dude with a giant mace.  A coward, but a fighting sort nonetheless.  Enough Tolkien for now. 

This actually is the point, that the combat mechanic is fundamentally flawed.  If I begin in base-to-base with a small dog, its low strength is no obstacle to hitting me, and my higher one no real help in hitting it.  Damage is different; strength certainly matters.  I know there is a general rule about not using real physics in a world with magic but common sense should apply at some point.  And it's not like changes to the current rules would mess up something anywhere close to perfect.

In this game, we're drawing on fantasy books and movies that just can't be evoked using the mechanics we have.  Hitting should be about skill, not bulk.  Armor is DR maybe, per UA.  But creatures are relying on their combat sense, their training and experience, to both hit and not be hit.  We could use rules that reflect that.

Thanks for the positive note on BAB as Defense.


Endarire

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Re: What does it take to be effective in melee?
« Reply #26 on: December 15, 2010, 03:39:56 AM »
Speaking from experience, Hood can output these sorts of numbers.  Indeed, my Hood* started one-shotting foes as early as ECL4.

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And this was with a Half-Minotaur with significantly lower STR and CON than normal.  (I lowered the STR and CON to make things saner, but reduced the DEX/INT/WIS/CHA penalties.)
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carnivore

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Re: What does it take to be effective in melee?
« Reply #27 on: December 15, 2010, 08:42:24 AM »
heres a Melee Example that can survive and win

CR 13 CORE only Melee

Human
Barbarian 1/ Fighter 12

Attributes: (32pt buy)
24 Str(16 +4 Lvls +4 Enhancement(belt)
20 Dex(16 +4 Enhancement(Gloves)
18 Con(14 +4 Enhancement(Amulet)
14 Int(14)
8 Wis(8)
8 Cha(8)


Feats:
TWF(Human Bonus)
1st lvl: Weapon Focus(Short Sword)
2nd lvl: Weapon Focus(Rapier)(Fighter Bonus)
3rd lvl: Quickdraw, Imp Initiative(Fighter Bonus)
5th lvl: Weapon Specialization(Rapier) (Fighter Bonus)
6th lvl: Weapon Specialization(Short Sword)
7th lvl: Imp TWF(Fighter Bonus)
9th lvl: Improved Crit(Rapier) , Greater Weapon Focus(Rapier)(Fighter Bonus)
11th lvl: Greater Weapon Focus(Short Sword)(Fighter Bonus)
12th lvl: Greater TWF
13th lvl: Greater Weapon Specialization(Rapier)(Fighter Bonus)


110000 GP equipment

16000gp +4 Str
16000gp +4 Dex
16000gp +4 Con
10200gp Adamantine Breastplate
12000gp Boots of Speed
18310gp +1 Wounding Short Sword
18320gp +1 Wounding Rapier

106830gp spent

Full Attack fully buffed(Rage(28 STR) and Haste)
+13 BAB +9 Str +1 Haste +1 Enhancement +2 GWF -2 TWF= +24/+24/+24/+19/+19/+14/+14

Damage
3.5 (Rapier) +9 Str+ 1 Enhancement +4 GWSpl = 17 Damage + 1 Con Damage
3.5 (Rapier) +9 Str+ 1 Enhancement +2 WSpl = 15 Damage +1 Con Damage

total Damage 1st round= 68 main Weapon +45 + 57(7 Con Damage)
should drop the Storm Giant in second round before it gets to Act .... this doesnt even count Crits(Rapier 15-20, Short Sword 18-20)

 :D


carnivore

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Re: What does it take to be effective in melee?
« Reply #28 on: December 15, 2010, 08:45:48 AM »
an Optimized Melee Combatant can survive quite well without as much support from the party, but it has to be optimized a lot more than a Spell Caster. the Melee Combatant should be always ready to go directly into Melee ..... the Caster usually needs to Buff himself

 :D

Shiki

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Re: What does it take to be effective in melee?
« Reply #29 on: December 15, 2010, 09:35:57 AM »
^much truth in this. Though it doesn't change the fact that going into Melee isn't always the best choice anyway. :P I really like archers (Swift Hunters comes to mind).
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Sunic_Flames

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Re: What does it take to be effective in melee?
« Reply #30 on: December 15, 2010, 10:13:42 AM »
Stuff.

And it's important to point out here to everyone that he stacked the deck. By making the entire party HP damage based and by making the enemies completely brain dead auto attackers, which he did allude to but also by completely ignoring anything the monster had not a part of its base spellblock, such as magic items, dragon spellcasting, etc. And the beatstick still lost. Badly. With the entire party propping them up.

Tank should have more AC; (s)he would probably end up using Improved Combat Expertise. Of course, to use that properly, you have to be a Kalashtar, and take Dancing with Shadows. Also, what level of magic we talking; low magic or higher up? Because the expectations completely change, due to the addition of BC from the party's caster; that has to be taken into account if you want something truly accurate, though a gish might get in the monster's face a lot.

Also, what are we talking battlefield wise? Is there area to charge, space to flank (for sneak attacks, obviously); can the monsters drop back to use ranged weapons later? Can the party do the same?

How wide are you stretching the net, and how optimized are you looking for? For example, would stuff like Lady's Gambit (from Dragon, sacrifice HP for damage and to-hit bonuses)+Stone Power be allowed? Of course, that's more of an archer's thing, but it can be thrown onto melee characters as well.

So, in short, what limitations do you want us to work under

And oh, Tenebrus, that last build has so much LA it is not even funny. I think there is at least +10 LA on that thing, as a conservative estimate. And Rogue is better than ninja in a party set up. Just saying.

Oh, and by the way, by "no tactics", I assume that excludes tactics that help add more damage to the enemy, like the aforementioned flanking for sneak attack?

Facepalm. Fail. You are missing the point. The point being that he assumed absolutely optimal conditions, and it was still a fail. Anything other than a flat, featureless plain makes beatsticks start sucking more.

Frankly, I'm just surprised at how quickly the tank will die going full attack to full attack vs. these opponents.  I had expected 3-4 rounds for a d10 character, not 1.6.

There's a reason why I've called those who only have HP and AC to back them up squishy. It's the same reason why I've called Barbarians glass cannons and Wizards tanks for years.

There's also a reason why I mock those who make up arena builds specifically to beat specific opponents, as if that means anything. You know who.
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lans

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Re: What does it take to be effective in melee?
« Reply #31 on: December 15, 2010, 10:56:16 AM »
heres a Melee Example that can survive and win

CR 13 CORE only Melee

Human
Barbarian 1/ Fighter 12

Attributes: (32pt buy)
24 Str(16 +4 Lvls +4 Enhancement(belt)
20 Dex(16 +4 Enhancement(Gloves)
18 Con(14 +4 Enhancement(Amulet)
14 Int(14)
8 Wis(8)
8 Cha(8)


Feats:
TWF(Human Bonus)
1st lvl: Weapon Focus(Short Sword)
2nd lvl: Weapon Focus(Rapier)(Fighter Bonus)
3rd lvl: Quickdraw, Imp Initiative(Fighter Bonus)
5th lvl: Weapon Specialization(Rapier) (Fighter Bonus)
6th lvl: Weapon Specialization(Short Sword)
7th lvl: Imp TWF(Fighter Bonus)
9th lvl: Improved Crit(Rapier) , Greater Weapon Focus(Rapier)(Fighter Bonus)
11th lvl: Greater Weapon Focus(Short Sword)(Fighter Bonus)
12th lvl: Greater TWF
13th lvl: Greater Weapon Specialization(Rapier)(Fighter Bonus)


110000 GP equipment

16000gp +4 Str
16000gp +4 Dex
16000gp +4 Con
10200gp Adamantine Breastplate
12000gp Boots of Speed
18310gp +1 Wounding Short Sword
18320gp +1 Wounding Rapier

106830gp spent

Full Attack fully buffed(Rage(28 STR) and Haste)
+13 BAB +9 Str +1 Haste +1 Enhancement +2 GWF -2 TWF= +24/+24/+24/+19/+19/+14/+14

Damage
3.5 (Rapier) +9 Str+ 1 Enhancement +4 GWSpl = 17 Damage + 1 Con Damage
3.5 (Rapier) +9 Str+ 1 Enhancement +2 WSpl = 15 Damage +1 Con Damage

total Damage 1st round= 68 main Weapon +45 + 57(7 Con Damage)
should drop the Storm Giant in second round before it gets to Act .... this doesnt even count Crits(Rapier 15-20, Short Sword 18-20)

 :D


Your 3 levels higher than you should be. These are supossed to be CR+2/3 fights
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Mixster

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Re: What does it take to be effective in melee?
« Reply #32 on: December 15, 2010, 10:59:20 AM »
The problem with this is, that if the party is ignoring a large part of the book, they are doing it wrong.

So I fail to see what you can gain from this, as I see it you have two possible outcomes:

A) Dealing with killing monsters through HP before they kill your tank is possible.
B) Dealing with killing monsters through HP before they kill your tank is impossible.

Either way you have not proven that it wouldn't be better to cast a spell to help your "tank".
So I fail to see the reason for doing this.

On this board you'll hear things like 'the only viable meleers in Core are the Cleric, Druid and Gish'. What I wanted to do was quantify if melee with any of those characters at all was viable. At level 10 I think the Druid is the only character that can come close to doing 40ish damage in melee (Wildshaped with their Animal Companion) even then it is not a guarantee. That means, in core you absolutely can not rely solely on melee, you can't rely on ranged weaponry, spell casting becomes essential for your group to function. Clerics are viable in melee with something like a Storm Giant only if they Blind or Paralyze it first, which is news to me, I always assumed that a properly buffed Cleric, with party support you take out anything without casting any spells on it.

I also wanted to create a sample metric to answer the question: is my build good enough? Currently their is only one way to test to see if your build can function at level: the same game test. This test pits your character against equal CR challenges, a build works if it can win about 50% of the challenges. I think that test is unduly harsh to melee classes, because I've seen high level melee groups deal with encounters quite easily with little or no magical support. While it suffers from a paucity of depth a little rubric like I've made up I think can show if you character can pull his weight in combat, before actually going into combat.

Good points.

Ok what I think you really need to optimise in this case is Armour Class IMO, it doesn't matter if you rarely hit the monster or if you deal little damage to it, if it cannot hit you, it cannot defeat you. Here is a build I used that held up indefinately against a Charnel hound before I knew much about Optimization.

Bear in mind, this was back in the days were I thought everything was about the hit point game, so it is focused around AC and DR.

Paladin 4/ Fighter 1/ Anointed Knight 1/ Knight Protector 7
Str 21 Dex 13 Con 18 Int 12 Wis 13 Cha 18
Equipment: Adamantine +3, Invulnerability Full plate, +1 Holy, Bane Evil Outsiders Long Sword, Tower Shield +3, Ring of Protection +2 x2 (this was back when we thought Deflection boni stacked), Dusty Rose Ioun Stone (+1 AC),
Feats (and special abilities):
Power Attack, Cleave, Great Cleave, Supreme Cleave, Mounted Combat, Ancestral Relic, Unbroken Flesh (DR 3/-), Weapon Focus (longsword), Improved resillience (+1 to DR)
All in all he had an AC of 34, and a DR of 7/- and 5/Magic, and 131 Hp, the Charnel hound could only hit him on 17+, and it would only deal an average of 2d8+7 damage, which he would be able to heal with his lay on hands.

Now I was probably pretty lucky, since the charnel hound could have switched to using less power attack, but then it probably wouldn't deal enough damage. Needless to say, after the hound had eaten our sorcerer (who was a blaster that cared little for defense, yes we were that new), our cleric had fled, and our fighter was eaten. I took it down through wailing at it for 10 or so rounds.
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carnivore

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Re: What does it take to be effective in melee?
« Reply #33 on: December 15, 2010, 11:04:38 AM »
Your 3 levels higher than you should be. These are supossed to be CR+2/3 fights
opps didnt see that part..... but then again, the Builds i posted can One-Shot Equivalent CR.... i suppose an ECL 10 Melee Build could also survive quite well .... since if it did even 50% of the Damage itself, the rest of the Party should be able to take up the slack

 :D

carnivore

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Re: What does it take to be effective in melee?
« Reply #34 on: December 15, 2010, 11:11:11 AM »
i could also boost the levels of the Builds i made to ECL 15 and face the Dragons, but i would adjust them slightly .... probably do this:


Ranger 1/ Monk 2/ Fighter 12 ... instead... Gain much better Saves, Evasion, Favored Enemy(Dragons) +Bane Wounding Weapons

 :D

LordBlades

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Re: What does it take to be effective in melee?
« Reply #35 on: December 15, 2010, 11:13:53 AM »
One of the main goals of an effectve character than wants to be in melee is making your opponents' riposte as ineffective as possible, in order to assume maximum survival.
There are several ways to do this:

1) AC, the most obvious one. If they can't hit your AC, then you;re pretty much safe. Problem is, reaching a safe-ish AC (Ideally >enemy's attack bonus+19) is way beyond the reach of nonspellcasters (fully dressed lvl 20 core full plate +towershield  fighter can reach 10 base+13 armor+3 dex+9 shield+5 defending armor spikes+5 combat expertise+5 deflection+natural=55, that's barely around the attack bonus of many CR 20 opponents, and he's taking -7 to attack for that).  It's much easier to get decent AC with spells like polymorph, bite of x, luminous armor and the like.

2)HP. Tanking by absorbing is a bad idea usually, since  PCs have a very low supply of them usually. Only way to reliably HP tank is to make taking damage irrelevant, via stuff like Deathless Frenzy or Delay Death.

3) Miss chance. It has the advantage that is a flat percentage, regardless of your opponent's attack bonuses. Disadvantage is that it's pretty easy to negate. Once again, obtainable mainly through spells.

4)one-shotting stuff. If they're no loger there to hit back, then you're safe. May one-shotting builds don't require spellcasting (most rely on leap attack+shock trooper combo) but
 stuff like wraithstrike does make things easier.

5) other shenaningas that allows you to fight on your own terms only (see chrono-legionnaire). All such builds I know are casters.


So, IMHO, unless your aim is to one-shot stuff, you can't really do much melee with a non caster past a certain level.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2010, 11:17:17 AM by LordBlades »

Unbeliever

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Re: What does it take to be effective in melee?
« Reply #36 on: December 15, 2010, 01:38:46 PM »
@LordBlades
I don't know, what you say is pretty reliably achieved by straightforward melee builds:  Stand Still + Thicket of Blades + reach. 

I'm not saying such builds wouldn't have their weaknesses or their issues, all or most builds do, but if #1-5 are the goal for a tank, I think it can be reliably done. 

@Carnivore
I've always contended that melee builds are much more challenging at the build stage.  But, picking spells (or invocations, etc.) is where all that work is for spellcasters.  Conjurer 20 is a fine build, but can still suck if you pick the wrong spells. 

PhaedrusXY

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Re: What does it take to be effective in melee?
« Reply #37 on: December 15, 2010, 02:02:47 PM »
I used d10 hit die and a +2 con modifier, (10 + 5.5x4 + 5x2 = 42).
That's too low. I always put at least a 14 Con on any character I expect to melee at all (no matter how pathetic the point buy is), and buy Con boosting magic items ASAP. At level 7, it should be at least a 16 Con, and it should go up due to upgrades on the Con magic items.

Mostly what you've shown is that AC is a lousy defense, and Constitution is at least the second most important stat for pretty much everyone. Even bad optimizers know that.

If the combatants are just sitting there swapping full attacks anyway, then they should also be flanking, which will increase their chances of hitting by 10%. An AC of 27 isn't that hard to hit at level 13. BAB +13, Str +5, at least +1 from the weapon, +2 from flanking = +21 to hit (70% chance), and that's just what I'd expect from a crappy NPC-type of character at this level. A PC "warrior" should be pretty much auto-hitting with their first swings (and they should be hasted, so they get two of them, even if they have to buy the damned boots).

The example creatures you chose are basically specialized for melee combat, also. So they probably have higher than typical damage outputs and hit points for their CR. Of course... it could be worse... You could have used dragons...

So yeah, what you say is true to a certain extent, but it is a bit biased IMO, and things aren't actually as bad as you claim.
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carnivore

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Re: What does it take to be effective in melee?
« Reply #38 on: December 15, 2010, 02:14:14 PM »
@Carnivore
I've always contended that melee builds are much more challenging at the build stage.  But, picking spells (or invocations, etc.) is where all that work is for spellcasters.  Conjurer 20 is a fine build, but can still suck if you pick the wrong spells.  
like PhoenixInferno said a long time ago .... "a Random pick from a Bag of Awesome is still good" .... its very hard to suck with most spellcaster builds

as i have shown with the Builds that i posted .... it is Possible, just as you just said "much more challenging at the build stage" .... for a Core Only Build ..... Non-CORE Builds are far easier... Superior Feats and Better Equipment allow Non-Spell Casting Builds to Survive quite easily, but care still needs to be taken

in addition ... Tactics like Flanking as PhaedrusXY said, should be taken into account .... in addition, Battlefield Control and Debuffing Spells allow the "Tank" to be FAR more effective ..... even Aid Another can be used to great effectiveness, if you know what to do

 :D

juton

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Re: What does it take to be effective in melee?
« Reply #39 on: December 15, 2010, 02:28:41 PM »
I used d10 hit die and a +2 con modifier, (10 + 5.5x4 + 5x2 = 42).
That's too low. I always put at least a 14 Con on any character I expect to melee at all (no matter how pathetic the point buy is), and buy Con boosting magic items ASAP. At level 7, it should be at least a 16 Con, and it should go up due to upgrades on the Con magic items.

Mostly what you've shown is that AC is a lousy defense, and Constitution is at least the second most important stat for pretty much everyone. Even bad optimizers know that.

If the combatants are just sitting there swapping full attacks anyway, then they should also be flanking, which will increase their chances of hitting by 10%. An AC of 27 isn't that hard to hit at level 13. BAB +13, Str +5, at least +1 from the weapon, +2 from flanking = +21 to hit (70% chance), and that's just what I'd expect from a crappy NPC-type of character at this level. A PC "warrior" should be pretty much auto-hitting with their first swings (and they should be hasted, so they get two of them, even if they have to buy the damned boots).

The example creatures you chose are basically specialized for melee combat, also. So they probably have higher than typical damage outputs and hit points for their CR. Of course... it could be worse... You could have used dragons...

So yeah, what you say is true to a certain extent, but it is a bit biased IMO, and things aren't actually as bad as you claim.

It's hard to make something like this fair to everyone. For instance I think a melee character with a 16 strength and a 14 constitution is reflective of a low point buy, which happens a lot. The tank character gets a +2 belt of constitution at level 10 and a +6 belt at level 15, that's reflected in the HP totals, one thing not reflected is that a lot of groups have some HP rolling rule which really helps, since there's no standard I didn't include it.