Author Topic: Contemplating Making Metamagic Immediately Useful. Ramifications?  (Read 3987 times)

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Endarire

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Intro
My main problems with metamagic feats in 3.5 are thus:

-Most feats aren't worth the slot level increase.
-I'm spending a FEAT, a valuable, character-defining resource.
-If I instead spend money, I can get a better version of a metamagic feat.

[spoiler]Longer Prose Version
Metamagic feats try to apply a linear scalar to an exponential system.  They rarely work as-is, being, in general, too annoying to use.

First, I spend a feat.  Second, I get enough class levels to get the needed slots to use said feat.  Third,I prepare the spell using a higher-level slot or spontaneously apply said metamagic.

Or, I can just buy a metamagic rod and not feel like a sucker.

Metamagic should provide spiffy and potent tricks to use with magic.  The costs are so prohibitive that most metamagic is neither spiffy nor potent.[/spoiler]

Note
I know casters are The Real Ultimate Power.  I know my system gives them more power, but I also boost other feats to make the desirable to take instead of placeholders.

Purpose
-Make metamagic desirable and fun to use.

Proposal
With minor exceptions, all metamagic feats can be spontaneously used 3/day without increasing the casting time or the spell slot's level.  Metapsionic feats don't require spending your psionic focus nor spending extra PP for these free uses.

People can still use these metamagic and metapsionic feats more often by using them normally; that is, with a higher slot level, spending more PP, expending their psionic focus, and so on.

Metamagic and metapsionic feats don't increase a spell's cast time unless the feat explicitly says so.  (Go, go, Sorcerer Quicken!)

Exceptions to this rule:
-Fell Drain: Works as per Libris Mortis.  If the spell does damage, this auto-kills anything with 1 HD.  I may instead add a prereq of 2HD to prevent it from being taken at L1.

-Heighten Spell: Works as per core, unless I remove it.  (Heigthen Spell is the source of many early entry tricks.)  I dislike the notion of changing it to the spontaneous system.

-Quicken Spell: Works as per core.  Extra actions are potent.  I don't want people casting 2 spells per round at level 1.  Let non-casters have their time.
Hood - My first answer to all your build questions; past, present, and future.

Speaking of which:
Don't even need TO for this.  Any decent Hood build, especially one with Celerity, one-rounds [Azathoth, the most powerful greater deity from d20 Cthulu].
Does it bug anyone else that we've reached the point where characters who can obliterate a greater deity in one round are considered "decent?"

NiteCyper

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Re: Contemplating Making Metamagic Immediately Useful. Ramifications?
« Reply #1 on: December 13, 2010, 06:29:38 AM »
Basically, most [Metamagic] feats would come with a free three-uses/day of a Sudden [Metamagic] version?

Note
I know casters are The Real Ultimate Power.  I know my system gives them more power, but I also boost other feats to make the desirable to take instead of placeholders.
I don't understand how empowering certain feats to obsolesce things that do the same job but better, justifies the empowerment of casters.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2010, 09:08:04 AM by NiteCyper »
Caveat: I edit my posts, ever and anon after.

juton

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Re: Contemplating Making Metamagic Immediately Useful. Ramifications?
« Reply #2 on: December 13, 2010, 08:31:48 AM »
Not every houserule has to be aimed at fixing the caster/non-caster imbalance. You can and should house rule interesting but mechanically weak spells and feats into something worth using.

Your system definitely makes metamagic more viable, but it treats all metamagics as equal. Quicken spell is probably good enough per SRD, not having to pay the 4 extra levels makes it a no brainer. Would your system allow a caster to Persist three spells per day? On the other hand, metamagics like still spell should probably be usable 3+Casting Mod times per day, or even more, still spell would really help Gishes who want fullplate.

NiteCyper

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Re: Contemplating Making Metamagic Immediately Useful. Ramifications?
« Reply #3 on: December 13, 2010, 09:09:52 AM »
You can and should house rule interesting but mechanically weak spells and feats into something worth using.
Why shouldn't you house rule interesting but mechanically weak classes into something worth using too?
Caveat: I edit my posts, ever and anon after.

Nytemare3701

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Re: Contemplating Making Metamagic Immediately Useful. Ramifications?
« Reply #4 on: December 13, 2010, 09:59:56 AM »
The ramifications are pretty obvious. Just make sure the mundanes don't get completely left behind. Maybe give power attack and combat expertise similar treatment?

skydragonknight

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Re: Contemplating Making Metamagic Immediately Useful. Ramifications?
« Reply #5 on: December 13, 2010, 10:22:27 AM »
Only one free metamagic per spell cast. No Twin Split Ray Enervating the BBEG at level 7.
It always seems like the barrels around here have something in them.

BeholderSlayer

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Re: Contemplating Making Metamagic Immediately Useful. Ramifications?
« Reply #6 on: December 13, 2010, 02:35:44 PM »
I give the option to increase casting time to apply metamagics. Casting time varies based on the metamagic applied.

Persist Spell cannot be used with the increased casting time system variant, as well as some others (Heighten comes to mind).

And quicken, of course.
Hi Welcome
[spoiler]
Allow me to welcome you both with my literal words and with an active display of how much you fit in by being tone deaf, dumb, and uncritical of your babbling myself.[/spoiler]

juton

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Re: Contemplating Making Metamagic Immediately Useful. Ramifications?
« Reply #7 on: December 13, 2010, 02:43:18 PM »
You can and should house rule interesting but mechanically weak spells and feats into something worth using.
Why shouldn't you house rule interesting but mechanically weak classes into something worth using too?

There is no reason you shouldn't.

Mixster

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Re: Contemplating Making Metamagic Immediately Useful. Ramifications?
« Reply #8 on: December 13, 2010, 03:08:37 PM »
You can and should house rule interesting but mechanically weak spells and feats into something worth using.
Why shouldn't you house rule interesting but mechanically weak classes into something worth using too?

There is no reason you shouldn't.

There is always the notion of screwing more with the CR system by making the weakest classes better, thus throwing "level-appropriate encounter" further down the drain, removing the idea of a challenge rating system. Which in turns makes combats easier. But I guess that is just my point of view.

Unless you also decide to buff all the monsters, but then you could as well just take the Grappling rules from the Phb and throw everything else out (and who would want that? Grappling is very confusing).
Monks are pretty much the best designed class ever.

JaronK

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Unbeliever

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Re: Contemplating Making Metamagic Immediately Useful. Ramifications?
« Reply #9 on: December 13, 2010, 03:54:24 PM »
Only one free metamagic per spell cast. No Twin Split Ray Enervating the BBEG at level 7.
This is a good addition. 

I hate to aim for more bookkeeping, but what if you had something like a "metamagic pool" out of which the MM levels would be paid for spontaneously.  You could keep the same level costs, and have more feats add to the amount you have in the pool to spend per day. 

I'm thinking something like this, but note this is off the top of my head and so the numbers are just placeholders.  Say spellcasters get 1 point in their MM pool to start, and another 1 every for levels after that (5, 9, 13, whatever ...), and then each MM feat gives you an extra 2 or something in your pool.  I'd probably also force the better MM feats, like Quicken, to have prereqs (e.g., 1 other metamagic feat) if they don't already. 

This preserves the cost difference between Quicken and Enlarge, but gives you a lot of flexibility, which is what Metamagic is all about.  It would involved keeping track of another set of resources, which I kind of despise, but at the present I've already got to juggle my 19 metamagic rods as it is. 

MalcolmSprye

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Re: Contemplating Making Metamagic Immediately Useful. Ramifications?
« Reply #10 on: December 13, 2010, 04:59:16 PM »
If you're going with the variant that acts like the sudden metamagic feats, I think 3 free uses per day is too much.  Given how short encounters often are, 3 free uses seems like it would be nearly unlimited.  Maybe 2?  As it stands, the wizard in my current(admittedly highly unoptimized) campaign gets good use from the one or two sudden metamagics he has.  I think the suddens might be too weak, but tripling their effect AND allowing them to act as the normal metamagic feat as well seems a bit much.

Mixster

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Re: Contemplating Making Metamagic Immediately Useful. Ramifications?
« Reply #11 on: December 13, 2010, 06:39:03 PM »
Only one free metamagic per spell cast. No Twin Split Ray Enervating the BBEG at level 7.
This is a good addition. 

I hate to aim for more bookkeeping, but what if you had something like a "metamagic pool" out of which the MM levels would be paid for spontaneously.  You could keep the same level costs, and have more feats add to the amount you have in the pool to spend per day. 

I'm thinking something like this, but note this is off the top of my head and so the numbers are just placeholders.  Say spellcasters get 1 point in their MM pool to start, and another 1 every for levels after that (5, 9, 13, whatever ...), and then each MM feat gives you an extra 2 or something in your pool.  I'd probably also force the better MM feats, like Quicken, to have prereqs (e.g., 1 other metamagic feat) if they don't already. 

This preserves the cost difference between Quicken and Enlarge, but gives you a lot of flexibility, which is what Metamagic is all about.  It would involved keeping track of another set of resources, which I kind of despise, but at the present I've already got to juggle my 19 metamagic rods as it is. 

Divine Metamagic for everyone? I love it!

But would severely screw up game balance, unless you have all casters now play magewrights and adepts.
Monks are pretty much the best designed class ever.

JaronK

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Endarire

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Re: Contemplating Making Metamagic Immediately Useful. Ramifications?
« Reply #12 on: December 13, 2010, 08:08:20 PM »
Which metamagic feats would be fair to include on the free spontaneous 1/day system?
Hood - My first answer to all your build questions; past, present, and future.

Speaking of which:
Don't even need TO for this.  Any decent Hood build, especially one with Celerity, one-rounds [Azathoth, the most powerful greater deity from d20 Cthulu].
Does it bug anyone else that we've reached the point where characters who can obliterate a greater deity in one round are considered "decent?"

Etarran

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Re: Contemplating Making Metamagic Immediately Useful. Ramifications?
« Reply #13 on: December 13, 2010, 11:12:01 PM »
Only one free metamagic per spell cast. No Twin Split Ray Enervating the BBEG at level 7.
This is a good addition. 

I hate to aim for more bookkeeping, but what if you had something like a "metamagic pool" out of which the MM levels would be paid for spontaneously.  You could keep the same level costs, and have more feats add to the amount you have in the pool to spend per day. 

I'm thinking something like this, but note this is off the top of my head and so the numbers are just placeholders.  Say spellcasters get 1 point in their MM pool to start, and another 1 every for levels after that (5, 9, 13, whatever ...), and then each MM feat gives you an extra 2 or something in your pool.  I'd probably also force the better MM feats, like Quicken, to have prereqs (e.g., 1 other metamagic feat) if they don't already. 

This preserves the cost difference between Quicken and Enlarge, but gives you a lot of flexibility, which is what Metamagic is all about.  It would involved keeping track of another set of resources, which I kind of despise, but at the present I've already got to juggle my 19 metamagic rods as it is. 

Divine Metamagic for everyone? I love it!

But would severely screw up game balance, unless you have all casters now play magewrights and adepts.
If you wanted to tie it to an existing system, how about letting people sacrifice prepared spells equal to the default slot adjustment (or double or whatever)? Spells per day are something we already have to keep track of, after all, and I would often happily spend two level one spells to extend a level one spell and leave my level two slots intact.

This also has the small benefit of slightly advantaging spontaneous casters, who get more spells per day.

Unbeliever

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Re: Contemplating Making Metamagic Immediately Useful. Ramifications?
« Reply #14 on: December 14, 2010, 03:29:21 AM »
Only one free metamagic per spell cast. No Twin Split Ray Enervating the BBEG at level 7.
This is a good addition. 

I hate to aim for more bookkeeping, but what if you had something like a "metamagic pool" out of which the MM levels would be paid for spontaneously.  You could keep the same level costs, and have more feats add to the amount you have in the pool to spend per day. 

I'm thinking something like this, but note this is off the top of my head and so the numbers are just placeholders.  Say spellcasters get 1 point in their MM pool to start, and another 1 every for levels after that (5, 9, 13, whatever ...), and then each MM feat gives you an extra 2 or something in your pool.  I'd probably also force the better MM feats, like Quicken, to have prereqs (e.g., 1 other metamagic feat) if they don't already. 

This preserves the cost difference between Quicken and Enlarge, but gives you a lot of flexibility, which is what Metamagic is all about.  It would involved keeping track of another set of resources, which I kind of despise, but at the present I've already got to juggle my 19 metamagic rods as it is. 

Divine Metamagic for everyone? I love it!

But would severely screw up game balance, unless you have all casters now play magewrights and adepts.

That's unfair.  One of the chief culprits w/ DMM is (1) the particular Metamagic feat in question (notably Persistent spell), and (2) that there are so many ways to scads of turn attempts in the current system.  This, admittedly ad hoc, system would not have the problem of (2) at least.  (1) is going to be a potential issue w/ any metamagic feat system. 

Mixster

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Re: Contemplating Making Metamagic Immediately Useful. Ramifications?
« Reply #15 on: December 14, 2010, 02:28:42 PM »
Only one free metamagic per spell cast. No Twin Split Ray Enervating the BBEG at level 7.
This is a good addition. 

I hate to aim for more bookkeeping, but what if you had something like a "metamagic pool" out of which the MM levels would be paid for spontaneously.  You could keep the same level costs, and have more feats add to the amount you have in the pool to spend per day. 

I'm thinking something like this, but note this is off the top of my head and so the numbers are just placeholders.  Say spellcasters get 1 point in their MM pool to start, and another 1 every for levels after that (5, 9, 13, whatever ...), and then each MM feat gives you an extra 2 or something in your pool.  I'd probably also force the better MM feats, like Quicken, to have prereqs (e.g., 1 other metamagic feat) if they don't already. 

This preserves the cost difference between Quicken and Enlarge, but gives you a lot of flexibility, which is what Metamagic is all about.  It would involved keeping track of another set of resources, which I kind of despise, but at the present I've already got to juggle my 19 metamagic rods as it is. 

Divine Metamagic for everyone? I love it!

But would severely screw up game balance, unless you have all casters now play magewrights and adepts.

That's unfair.  One of the chief culprits w/ DMM is (1) the particular Metamagic feat in question (notably Persistent spell), and (2) that there are so many ways to scads of turn attempts in the current system.  This, admittedly ad hoc, system would not have the problem of (2) at least.  (1) is going to be a potential issue w/ any metamagic feat system. 

The part about the divine Metamagic was actually not sarcastic, even though it might have seemed so in retrospect.

It still confuses me why people want to make metamagic better. Yes, if you take nothing but metamagic feats, you don't get a lot from them, but if you focus on metamagicing some feats and spells, they get tremendously useful.
It is true that almost all of these systems try to get around the spell level increase. And that is why your take is probably right, the Spell level increase if probably what makes Metamagic not good enough to be valued properly.

I liked the idea of sacrificing spells per day to get metamagic, that would probably make the sorcerer a little better, and the wizard a little worse. It would also make the low level slots useful at higher levels in the game (Which I already think they are, but not everyone agrees with me).

However, the whole problem is, we don't want to make casters more powerful, because if we do that, we would also have to make non-casters more powerful (or everyone would be playing casters). Therefore we need to make the monsters more powerful, which in turns means we will have to re-work the entire system.
A better option would be to attempt to go for one even level of power, casters, non-casters and monsters. Because if not, the CR system is void, and the level system, and then there are no real arguments left for using 3.5 as your preferred system anymore.
Monks are pretty much the best designed class ever.

JaronK

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Unbeliever

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Re: Contemplating Making Metamagic Immediately Useful. Ramifications?
« Reply #16 on: December 14, 2010, 02:57:46 PM »
That's a fair critique. 

Here's my response, although very much ymmv.  There are lots of "good" options in D&D right now, meaning effective, badass, cool, and frankly fun ways to expend your character resources (aka "mojo").  Like the Druid, he's pretty good altogether.  Likewise, the god-style BFC wizard.  I like the idea of options to make some of the traditionally undervalued options more attractive, or at least interesting.  I feel like metmagic falls into that category:  unless you totally design your build around it, it's typically useless.  So, a system to make it more useful intrigues me.

If you stack that extra usefulness on top of say a god-wizard, then I think you might be compounding game balance, although my group(s) don't have the caster v. non-caster game balance issues that are all the rage here.  But, if the option is to play a viable metamagic caster, who isn't any more powerful overall than the ones we are already familiar w/, I'd be interested as a player or a DM. 

Again, ymmv.

Widow

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Re: Contemplating Making Metamagic Immediately Useful. Ramifications?
« Reply #17 on: December 15, 2010, 03:44:17 AM »
I agree with everyone above, metamagic is not uber powerful until you really focus your resources on it (then it is really scary).  Also casters really do not need a bump in power, but I don't think that is what the focus of this house rule is.  The idea is to make metamagic more fun, so I might try something like this.

Make a completely new feat: Spontaneous Metamagic
-It allows you to apply any non-epic metamagic feat to a spell on the fly without increasing the spell level.
-You do not have to have the metamagic feat, it is any feat.
-It grants you 6 levels worth of adjustment a day per feat, you can take the feat more than once (DM could set number).
-Metamagic feats with a level adjustment of 0 count as 1/2 for purposes of your daily use limit.
-You don't have to select only one feat to emulate, you can use any combination of feats up to your level adjustment cap for the day.
-The base adjustment of the metamagic feat used cannot be reduced in any way in regards to this feat.
-This feat replaces all sudden metamagic feats and can be used with spell-like, psionic, infusions, etc.  (basically anything that has a metamagic type feat for it).  Regular metamagic feats could still be available and work like normal or totaly removed depending on the DM.

So what you end up with is a highly versatile feat that brings into play every metamagic feat in the game.  There are plenty of feats no one would ever take, but certainly could be used for special situations.  Also the real power house feats would only be usable 1 to 1.5 times per feat, everything would scale based on what you applied that day:

Persistent 1/Day
Quicken 1/Day with 2 adjustment left over
Maximize 2/Day
Empower 3/Day
Still/Silent/Extend 6/day

Most builds that really focus on metamagic feat use currently invest multiple feats (Extend/Persistent/Divine Metamagic/Easy metamagic combo; Arcane Thesis) or put alot of levels in Incantrix/Dweomerkeeper/etc.  I don't think this alternative would really be any more powerful, because your players could specialize anyway if that is what they are going for.  You could also adjust the number of these feats you are allowed to take if the players try to take it too far.

Not sure, but it might be interesting.  You could also open the feat up to non-casters with the added benefit that they are targetable by personal spells cast by other casters, IE they can get persistent buffs too.

The orignal poster has clearly never played a game with any of my PC's, I always have metamagic shenagians running that make a DM cry.  They really don't need any help, but at least this would bring out feats not normally used.

Endarire

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Re: Contemplating Making Metamagic Immediately Useful. Ramifications?
« Reply #18 on: December 15, 2010, 06:10:09 PM »
My metamagic experience comes from Persisting and Extending lotsa buffs for myself and my group.  I have rarely used metamagic in combat since it's so annoying to use.
Hood - My first answer to all your build questions; past, present, and future.

Speaking of which:
Don't even need TO for this.  Any decent Hood build, especially one with Celerity, one-rounds [Azathoth, the most powerful greater deity from d20 Cthulu].
Does it bug anyone else that we've reached the point where characters who can obliterate a greater deity in one round are considered "decent?"