Author Topic: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons  (Read 171419 times)

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snakeman830

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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #780 on: January 05, 2011, 02:17:18 PM »
Half-Dragon Monks/Druids would be a case of "specific trumps general", so I still don't see any contradictions.  There is no location discussing Frightful Presence, DR and SR that is discussing all True Dragons and not just the MM10, so we can't use those as evidence (wings are also irrelevant as most Lung dragons and Brown dragons lack them, so they're clearly not a defining characteristic).  The fact that all UATDs have these is overall irrelevant because there is no place in the rules that actually says that True Dragons must have these qualities (Kobolds have natural armor, so no issue).

And no, Beholder, I have been reading all of your posts (though skiming over your trolling).  You still haven't explained why JaronK is wrong on many points.  At absolute best, you have come up with another reading of the same rules that removes DWK's as being True Dragons (albeit using some uncommon definitions of words), but you haven't disproved the reading saying that DWK's are True Dragons.

Oh, and computer logic will always come to being True trumping Lesser because computers ALWAYS go in order, and True is defined first in the Draconomicon.
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archangel.arcanis

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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #781 on: January 05, 2011, 02:23:33 PM »
The DR & SR rules are on Pg22 sidebar Dragon Immunities. I believe you have discarded this section because under the same header it claims all true dragons have at least one energy immunity.

Frightful presence is in the same side bar under its own header. It does not call out that all true dragons have it, only giving rules for it applying and how.
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BeholderSlayer

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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #782 on: January 05, 2011, 02:29:56 PM »
Half-Dragon Monks/Druids would be a case of "specific trumps general", so I still don't see any contradictions.  There is no location discussing Frightful Presence, DR and SR that is discussing all True Dragons and not just the MM10, so we can't use those as evidence (wings are also irrelevant as most Lung dragons and Brown dragons lack them, so they're clearly not a defining characteristic).  The fact that all UATDs have these is overall irrelevant because there is no place in the rules that actually says that True Dragons must have these qualities (Kobolds have natural armor, so no issue).
The goal is, apparently, to determine which definition results in the least contradictions. Therefore, we must look at all descriptions, accurate or not, and determine which definition results in the least number of contradictions. Both definitions result in contradictions with things like having wings, claws, an energy immunity, etc. However, JaronK's argument suffers from the fact that DWK's contradict the descriptions that all true dragons have DR/SR/Frightful Presence that manifest and increase with age.

The natural armor part was something I added in from memory, as I think I remember there being a description of True Dragons saying their natural armor increases with age, which DWK would also contradict.

And no, Beholder, I have been reading all of your posts (though skiming over your trolling).  You still haven't explained why JaronK is wrong on many points.  At absolute best, you have come up with another reading of the same rules that removes DWK's as being True Dragons (albeit using some uncommon definitions of words), but you haven't disproved the reading saying that DWK's are True Dragons.
And he hasn't disproven mine, either, so what's your point?

However, I have shown that my definition results in less contradictions with existing descriptions, which is apparently the actual goalpost of the argument according to JaronK.

Oh, and computer logic will always come to being True trumping Lesser because computers ALWAYS go in order, and True is defined first in the Draconomicon.
I don't see how this is pertinent information.
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BeholderSlayer

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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #783 on: January 05, 2011, 02:31:30 PM »
The DR & SR rules are on Pg22 sidebar Dragon Immunities. I believe you have discarded this section because under the same header it claims all true dragons have at least one energy immunity.
Discarding accurate descriptions based on proximity to inaccurate descriptions is not something I advocate. The best definition will contradict the least descriptions, no matter where they are located.

If we are to determine which definition is "better," since neither can be disproven, the goalpost is "which results in less contradictions."

Frightful presence is in the same side bar under its own header. It does not call out that all true dragons have it, only giving rules for it applying and how.
This is true.
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The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #784 on: January 05, 2011, 05:15:35 PM »
This description of a True Dragon is inherently flawed and false. All dragons possess age categories. In fact, all creatures possess age categories.
Show me the age categories for a wyvern.
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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #785 on: January 05, 2011, 06:00:48 PM »
This description of a True Dragon is inherently flawed and false. All dragons possess age categories. In fact, all creatures possess age categories.
Show me the age categories for a wyvern.
Young, Adult, Middle Age, Old, and Venerable

Source? The disguise skill, PHB or SRD, take your pick.
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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #786 on: January 05, 2011, 06:01:49 PM »
This description of a True Dragon is inherently flawed and false. All dragons possess age categories. In fact, all creatures possess age categories.
Show me the age categories for a wyvern.
Young, Adult, Middle Age, Old, and Venerable

Source? The disguise skill, PHB or SRD, take your pick.
That doesn't say they have them.  After all, elementals don't have genders.
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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #787 on: January 05, 2011, 06:04:25 PM »
This description of a True Dragon is inherently flawed and false. All dragons possess age categories. In fact, all creatures possess age categories.
Show me the age categories for a wyvern.
Young, Adult, Middle Age, Old, and Venerable

Source? The disguise skill, PHB or SRD, take your pick.
That doesn't say they have them.  After all, elementals don't have genders.
It doesn't say they don't have them, either.

Is that really what you're going with?
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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #788 on: January 05, 2011, 06:06:59 PM »
This description of a True Dragon is inherently flawed and false. All dragons possess age categories. In fact, all creatures possess age categories.
Show me the age categories for a wyvern.
Young, Adult, Middle Age, Old, and Venerable

Source? The disguise skill, PHB or SRD, take your pick.
That doesn't say they have them.  After all, elementals don't have genders.
It doesn't say they don't have them, either.

Is that really what you're going with?
It doesn't say kobolds don't have true dragonhood, either.

Is that really what you're going with?
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BeholderSlayer

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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #789 on: January 05, 2011, 06:09:55 PM »
This description of a True Dragon is inherently flawed and false. All dragons possess age categories. In fact, all creatures possess age categories.
Show me the age categories for a wyvern.
Young, Adult, Middle Age, Old, and Venerable

Source? The disguise skill, PHB or SRD, take your pick.
That doesn't say they have them.  After all, elementals don't have genders.
It doesn't say they don't have them, either.

Is that really what you're going with?
It doesn't say kobolds don't have true dragonhood, either.

Is that really what you're going with?
It doesn't say they do, either.

Just curious, what's your source for elementals not having gender?
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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #790 on: January 05, 2011, 06:12:00 PM »
Referred to as "it".  If you prefer, I can use animated objects as my example.

Point is, just because there's a listed DC for someone to disguise themselves as having a trait, doesn't mean that everything has that trait.  
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BeholderSlayer

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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #791 on: January 05, 2011, 06:16:01 PM »
Referred to as "it".  If you prefer, I can use animated objects as my example.

Point is, just because there's a listed DC for someone to disguise themselves as having a trait, doesn't mean that everything has that trait.  
Right, it also doesn't mean they don't.
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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #792 on: January 05, 2011, 06:18:24 PM »
Fortunately, the default assumption in DnD is that if the rules don't say you get it, you don't get it.  If we don't make that assumption, we could just declare my animated baloney sandwich to be a true dragon.

Now, it's perfectly fine if you want to houserule in age categories for other commonly used races.  But at that point you're no longer working with the written rules.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2011, 06:22:00 PM by The_Mad_Linguist »
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archangel.arcanis

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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #793 on: January 05, 2011, 06:18:55 PM »
Referred to as "it".  If you prefer, I can use animated objects as my example.

Point is, just because there's a listed DC for someone to disguise themselves as having a trait, doesn't mean that everything has that trait.  
Right, it also doesn't mean they don't.
So at what age do the change categories?

Honestly that is a really weak argument for a creature having age categories, which kobolds didn't until RotD.
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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #794 on: January 05, 2011, 06:22:07 PM »
Sure they did, they had the same age categories as every other creature.
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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #795 on: January 05, 2011, 06:23:42 PM »
Sure they did, they had the same age categories as every other creature.
Rules citation for this, please.
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archangel.arcanis

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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #796 on: January 05, 2011, 06:25:25 PM »
Sure they did, they had the same age categories as every other creature.
Really? Because I don't see it listed. How am I supposed to know they don't live an infinite life span or die of age in 2 days like a house fly?
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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #797 on: January 05, 2011, 06:31:24 PM »
Sure they did, they had the same age categories as every other creature.
Rules citation for this, please.
Fortify seed, SRD, the end of it.

Sure they did, they had the same age categories as every other creature.
Really? Because I don't see it listed. How am I supposed to know they don't live an infinite life span or die of age in 2 days like a house fly?
You won't find one listed for many playable races. This doesn't mean they don't have age categories.
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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #798 on: January 05, 2011, 06:32:44 PM »
Sure they did, they had the same age categories as every other creature.
Rules citation for this, please.
Fortify seed, SRD, the end of it.
Doesn't prove anything.  Otherwise I could say "all creatures have a constitution score" with the same logic.
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BeholderSlayer

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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #799 on: January 05, 2011, 06:35:47 PM »
Sure they did, they had the same age categories as every other creature.
Rules citation for this, please.
Fortify seed, SRD, the end of it.
Doesn't prove anything.  Otherwise I could say "all creatures have a constitution score" with the same logic.
That the same logic that makes an animated bologna sandwich have the dragon type?

You're grasping at straws, straws that aren't necessarily important to my argument in the first place even.
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