Author Topic: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons  (Read 171753 times)

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JaronK

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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #620 on: December 19, 2010, 08:03:55 PM »
Is the Monster Manual 3.5 true dragon chapter only about the 10 dragons (chromatic and metallic) described there, or is it about all true dragons?

After researching the subject for some time I have come to a conclusion that it is valid for all true dragons. So MM is the general description for them.

...you realize the MM description invalidates all True Dragons outside the Monster Manual, right?  Your quotes could also be used to say that the MM is a jumping off point for other True Dragons.  In fact, that works a LOT better, and fails to lead to contradictions that way.

Quote from: Drow of the Underdark, p.114

Right, so they're similar in this way.  However, Deep Dragons are neither metallic nor chromatic, and lack any energy immunity, so by the Monster Manual they're not True Dragons and thus the Monster Manual can't be talking about them.  Instead, it's saying that for any ability Deep Dragons share with the Monster Manual True Dragons, you should look at the Monster Manual entry.  

Quote from: Dragons of Faerun, p.138
...
The dragons here are presented in the format used in the Monster Manual. For further details on dragon combat and abilities not detailed here, see MM 68-70.
...

Once again, Brown Dragons from this same book lack wings.  Others fail to qualify for other reasons.  The Monster Manual isn't talking about these guys... but rather these guys are referencing the Monster Manual as a baseline.  Monster Manual is a jumping off point.


Quote from: Dragon 343, p.38
...
Arcane Dragons possess all the standard true dragon traits (see page 68 of the Monster Manual), plus they gain the following pecial qualities.
...

Standard true dragons are the ones in the Monster Manual.  Then there are other True Dragons found elsewhere that lack those traits.  For example, all the dragons not found in the Monster Manual (except, evidently, Arcane dragons.  Are they metallic or chromatic?).

Quote from: Dragon 359, p.36
...
Epic dragons share all the combat charasteristics of standard dragons, as described in the Monster Manual.
...

But they're not metallic or chromatic either, they just have the combat characteristics, which is to say stuff like claw damage.

Quote from: Dragon 344, p.26
...
The chromatic and metallic dragons of the Material Plane by no means account for the entirety of the draconic races. Nearly every plane of existence has at least one unique breed of dragon to claim as its own. Most of these planar dragons reflect their home planes in some fashion, often through their abilities but sometimes merely through their alignments. Sages and explorers occasionally find a new breed of planar dragon, with the four most recently discovered kinds detailed herein.

Planar dragons lack the innate spell-casting ability of other true dragons. They do, however, often posses a variety of spell-like abilities. A planar dragon uses its age category as its caster level for all spell-like abilities. Although native to planes other than the Material Plane, these creatures nonetheless have the dragon type and are not outsiders. Instead, they all possess the extraplanar subtype.
...

Right, so this right here is talking about how planar dragons are different from the Monster Manual definition.  Clearly the Monster Manual definition isn't talking about them.  Also, they're not metallic or chromatic.

Quote from: Dragon 356, p.22
Ferrous Dragons
The return of the heavy metal-dragons.

Not all that glitters is golden. When it comes to dragons, metallic does not necessarily mean good and righteous. While most adventures have heard of the chromatic and metallic dragons, few have encountered ferrous dragons. These dragons constitute the lawful branch of dragonkind. Although their influence has dimished in the past millenium, they are proud and determined to regain their former glory. This article presents five such rarities: the chromium, cobalt, nickl, and tungsten dragons, each one ready to mystify and terrify your players.

Ferrous Dragon Qualities
Ferrous dragons possess all of the abilities of true dragons, plus the following ability.
...

Once again, they use MM as a jumping off point.  That doesn't mean Monster Manual is talking about them.  It means MM is a baseline that others then differ from.  But, nice job finding metallic dragons outside the Monster Manual!

...we can keep going on this, but you get the idea.

Quote
Contradictions?

If the description for a true dragon in a source contradicts the MM description then specific trumps general. E.g. White dragon can be under 100 ft if it is specifically stated so i.e. size gargantuan when Great Wyrm. This rule can be applied to every contradiction. So the MM description is never invalid.

Except the lack of elemental immunity in Deep Dragons is never stated as a contradiction.  It's just there.  Same for the lack of Metallic or Chromatic on most other dragons, or the lack of wings on Brown Dragons and most Lung dragons, and a host of other things.  This indicates it's not a stated exception at all.

Quote
And Draconomicon?

Draconomicon incorporates/inherits everything from MM. This means that everything in Draconomicon is about all true dragons generally.

Page 4.  It specifically says that when it talks about True Dragons in general, it usually is just talking about the Monster Manual 10.  This is explicitly stated in that same sidebar we keep looking at.  Read that, it clearly invalidates your point completely on the topic of Draconomicon and what it's talking about.  The fact that the DR/SR section is the same section that's talking about how all true dragons have an elemental immunity (which most of the ones you've just cited lack) and you should figure out pretty quickly what's going on.

Your quotes just show that the basic known True Dragons are the one in the Monster Manual, and that that's what's being usually referred to by default when we mention True Dragons.   When new True Dragons are made, they will often (but by no means always) reference those as a basic concept, then show the other traits they want.  This is simply shorthand.  They'll also leave off the traits they don't want (for example, Deep Dragons not having elemental immunity).  This by no means implies that the Monster Manual is giving a definition of all True Dragons (especially when it explicitly states it's talking about "known true dragons"), especially when that definition fails to fit for so many even when exceptions are not, as you say, specifically stated.  

JaronK

JaronK

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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #621 on: December 19, 2010, 08:24:42 PM »
Normal Kobold Half-Dragon. o:

Which can seemingly become a True Dragon by getting Druid 15, so that one's right on the edge.

Still the more interesting thing is that the ONLY thing other than established True Dragons to have those age categories is Kobolds.  The fact that the same book that gave them those age categories also gave them the feat that makes them dragons without age degradation does make it seem awfully intended.

By the way, a number of people have claimed Half Dragons are "explicitly" not True Dragons.  Is that actually said anywhere?  I understand why it's implicit (they usually lack the age categories, and except in strange cases would also get weaker as they get older) but I haven't seen this explicit statement.

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snakeman830

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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #622 on: December 19, 2010, 08:30:35 PM »
I think it's somewhere in Draconomicon.  I don't have a page number, but I remember reading it too.
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Shiki

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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #623 on: December 19, 2010, 09:03:43 PM »
^This?

Quote from: Draconomicon p.144
Lesser Dragon PCs

Using another creature of the dragon type as a player character is rather less complicated than using a true dragon. Such a creature has a set level adjustment and no built-in progression due to age, so after the character begins play there is no reason to advance the character as a monster again. For exemple, a wyvern character, with a level adjustment of +4 and 7 Hit Dice, has an ECL of 11 and joins a party of 11th-level characters to adventure. The wyvern continues advancing as a character, just like the other characters in the party.
Many creatures of the dragon type have more than 20 Hit Dice, or their level adjustment would raise their ECL above 20. These monsters are not included in the following information.

Lesser Dragon   Level Adj.
Abyssal drake      +5
Air drake         +3
Dragon turtle      +5
Dragonnel         +3
Earth drake         +3
Faerie dragon      +2
Fire drake         +3
Forest landwyrm      +3
Ice drake         +3
Magma drake      +3
Ooze drake         +3
Plains landwyrm      +2
Pseudodragon      +3
Smoke drake      +3
Spiked felldrake      +2
Underdark landwyrm   +2
Water drake      +3
Wyvern         +4

Template      Level Adj.
Dracolich         +2
Draconic         +1
Ghostly dragon      +5
Half-dragon   +3
Vampiric dragon      +5
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JaronK

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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #624 on: December 19, 2010, 09:11:19 PM »
Ah, excellent.  That removes the weird little "Half Dragon Kobold Druid 15" thing.

...but the Half Dragon template can be added to any corporeal creature, including True Dragons.  So what happens if you're a Half Brass Dragon Gold Dragon?  I think at that point it's just "world implodes."

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Shiki

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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #625 on: December 19, 2010, 09:12:05 PM »
Ah, excellent.  That removes the weird little "Half Dragon Kobold Druid 15" thing.

...but the Half Dragon template can be added to any corporeal creature, including True Dragons.  So what happens if you're a Half Brass Dragon Gold Dragon?  I think at that point it's just "world implodes."

JaronK

Probably.  :lmao
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archangel.arcanis

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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #626 on: December 19, 2010, 09:17:16 PM »
Ah, excellent.  That removes the weird little "Half Dragon Kobold Druid 15" thing.

...but the Half Dragon template can be added to any corporeal creature, including True Dragons.  So what happens if you're a Half Brass Dragon Gold Dragon?  I think at that point it's just "world implodes."

JaronK
Well the thing is it isn't a half dragon it is just a crossbreed between 2 dragon species. I thought there were rules for that before but it may have been in a 3rd part book.
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Nachofan99

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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #627 on: December 19, 2010, 09:19:55 PM »
Normal Kobold Half-Dragon. o:

Which can seemingly become a True Dragon by getting Druid 15, so that one's right on the edge.

Still the more interesting thing is that the ONLY thing other than established True Dragons to have those age categories is Kobolds.  The fact that the same book that gave them those age categories also gave them the feat that makes them dragons without age degradation does make it seem awfully intended.

By the way, a number of people have claimed Half Dragons are "explicitly" not True Dragons.  Is that actually said anywhere?  I understand why it's implicit (they usually lack the age categories, and except in strange cases would also get weaker as they get older) but I haven't seen this explicit statement.

JaronK


Yes JaronK, Races of the Dragon pg. 4 "The Dragonkind Races" sidebar.  "Druid 15/Half-Dragon/Kobold" is irrelevant.

JaronK

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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #628 on: December 19, 2010, 10:17:51 PM »
Yes JaronK, Races of the Dragon pg. 4 "The Dragonkind Races" sidebar.  "Druid 15/Half-Dragon/Kobold" is irrelevant.

What are you talking about?  Half Dragons are in there... but so are the True Dragons of the Monster Manual.  That's a list of all things that are dragonkind, from True to Lesser and even just dragonblooded stuff.  That's not explicitly saying Half Dragons are anything in particular other than being generally in the dragonkind group (which is an even bigger group than the "dragon" creature type).

The Draconomicon one actually says it though.  Which leaves us with the annoying issue that you can have a Half Dragon [Insert True Dragon type here] but that's mostly just an issue with the fact that the Half Dragon template can be added to the dragon creature type.

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skydragonknight

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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #629 on: December 19, 2010, 10:18:59 PM »
Side question: If a dragonwrought kobold marries and breeds with, say: a halfling, is the resulting child a half-dragon halfling?
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Nachofan99

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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #630 on: December 19, 2010, 10:22:22 PM »
Side question: If a dragonwrought kobold marries and breeds with, say: a halfling, is the resulting child a half-dragon halfling?

To further muddy the waters, what if you proceed to cut said half-dragon halfing in half?

JaronK

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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #631 on: December 19, 2010, 10:34:49 PM »
Side question: If a dragonwrought kobold marries and breeds with, say: a halfling, is the resulting child a half-dragon halfling?

Actually, yes.  The only way a Kobold of any kind could breed with a halfling is by being Dragonwrought, because Kobolds can't breed with Halflings in general but True Dragons can... as such, it is only your True Dragonness that makes you able to have the kid in the first place.  Also, since all Dragonwrought Kobolds pick a type when they take the feat (see the sidebar in Races of the Dragon, which states you can chose being metallic or chromatic), you could actually pick which type of Half Dragon your new halfling baby was.  Furthermore, as a Kobold you'd realize that the dragon part was more important than the halfling part, so I guess you'd call your child a Half Halfling Dragon.

However, no self respecting Kobold would breed with a halfling.  They're not dragony enough.  Kobolds are very big on how awesome it is to be a dragon.  However, a Dragonwrought Kobold might sleep with a Half Dragon Halfling, which would look a lot like a Kobold anyway.  The resulting child would be, if nothing else, very confused.  Racially, the parents would have to have had a Half Dragon Half Dragon Halfling, which is in fact 3/4 dragon and 1/4 halfling (1/8th ling?).

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skydragonknight

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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #632 on: December 19, 2010, 10:38:30 PM »
I just said halfling because it was also small size and gnome was out of the question. ;)
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JaronK

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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #633 on: December 19, 2010, 11:17:58 PM »
Whereas I just went through that entire diatribe so that I could conclude with "have to have had a Half Dragon Half Dragon Halfling."

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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #634 on: December 20, 2010, 03:11:29 AM »
I just said halfling because it was also small size and gnome was out of the question. ;)
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skydragonknight

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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #635 on: December 20, 2010, 03:47:40 AM »
Then do you get a half-fey dwk or a half-dragon pixie?  :lol
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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #636 on: December 20, 2010, 04:06:51 AM »
Then do you get a half-fey dwk or a half-dragon pixie?  :lol
Good question. I like to think that is where fairy dragons come from, myself...

BeholderSlayer

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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #637 on: December 20, 2010, 10:25:28 AM »
I don't know how many times I'm going to have to say this: the MM is only talking about the particular true dragons in it for one paragraph. Then it changes topics to "all true dragons." The paragraph of "all true dragons" can be used as a suitable description of ALL true dragons.

@JaronK: there is more than one way to read this rule. Just accept it, you don't have a stranglehold on it any longer. The fact that you can't just accept there is another way to read it makes me wonder why you are so insecure that you must continue to attempt to tell somebody their way of reading it is wrong when it is pretty clear that it isn't.

It just strikes me as silly since I just explained why we aren't going to see eye to eye, and then you go and try applying the way that you want to read the rule to the way I'm reading it, yet again.

Let me guess, you're still a virgin? Never had many girlfriends? That would explain a lot.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2010, 10:30:45 AM by BeholderSlayer »
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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #638 on: December 20, 2010, 11:48:32 AM »
I don't know how many times I'm going to have to say this: the MM is only talking about the particular true dragons in it for one paragraph. Then it changes topics to "all true dragons." The paragraph of "all true dragons" can be used as a suitable description of ALL true dragons.

@JaronK: there is more than one way to read this rule. Just accept it, you don't have a stranglehold on it any longer. The fact that you can't just accept there is another way to read it makes me wonder why you are so insecure that you must continue to attempt to tell somebody their way of reading it is wrong when it is pretty clear that it isn't.

It just strikes me as silly since I just explained why we aren't going to see eye to eye, and then you go and try applying the way that you want to read the rule to the way I'm reading it, yet again.

Let me guess, you're still a virgin? Never had many girlfriends? That would explain a lot.
Degrading to Ad Hominems doesn't help your argument in the slightest. You're just making yourself look worse.

BeholderSlayer

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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #639 on: December 20, 2010, 11:58:52 AM »
I don't know how many times I'm going to have to say this: the MM is only talking about the particular true dragons in it for one paragraph. Then it changes topics to "all true dragons." The paragraph of "all true dragons" can be used as a suitable description of ALL true dragons.

@JaronK: there is more than one way to read this rule. Just accept it, you don't have a stranglehold on it any longer. The fact that you can't just accept there is another way to read it makes me wonder why you are so insecure that you must continue to attempt to tell somebody their way of reading it is wrong when it is pretty clear that it isn't.

It just strikes me as silly since I just explained why we aren't going to see eye to eye, and then you go and try applying the way that you want to read the rule to the way I'm reading it, yet again.

Let me guess, you're still a virgin? Never had many girlfriends? That would explain a lot.
Degrading to Ad Hominems doesn't help your argument in the slightest. You're just making yourself look worse.
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