Author Topic: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons  (Read 171421 times)

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JaronK

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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #500 on: December 16, 2010, 07:34:47 PM »
Uh, so you missed the part where becoming more powerful = advancing, so they are the same thing. I addressed both True and Lesser dragon definitions.

I didn't miss it, I pointed out that you ignored (once again) part of the rules, namely that part that said being more powerful is also something other than advancing.  Advancing is just one example of being more powerful.  In the rules for point buy systems, it clearly says that a character with higher stats is more powerful than one with lower stats, even though they're not of different level.  This completely invalidates your claims.

To actually use rules sources, the DMG on pages 169-170 talks about ability generation methods.  It's got a few roll methods.  The method that averages the highest stats (roll 5d6 six times, discarding the two lowest) is referred to as "High-Powered Characters."  Likewise, page 169 refers to 15 point buy as "Low powered" while 32 point buy is "high powered."  The differences between low and high powered?  Nothing but stats.  And yet you claim to have shown that "powerful=advancing."  Your claim is invalidated.

JaronK
« Last Edit: December 16, 2010, 07:44:05 PM by JaronK »

BeholderSlayer

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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #501 on: December 16, 2010, 07:40:25 PM »
Uh, so you missed the part where becoming more powerful = advancing, so they are the same thing. I addressed both True and Lesser dragon definitions.

I didn't miss it, I pointed out that you ignored (once again) part of the rules, namely that part that said being more powerful is also something other than advancing.  Advancing is just one example of being more powerful.  In the rules for point buy systems, it clearly says that a character with higher stats is more powerful than one with lower stats, even though they're not of different level.  This completely invalidates your claims.

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JaronK

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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #502 on: December 16, 2010, 07:44:59 PM »
So in your opinion, when it says that 5d6 drop two is for "high powered characters" that means 5d6 drop two gives characters more hit dice?

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BeholderSlayer

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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #503 on: December 16, 2010, 07:47:29 PM »
So in your opinion, when it says that 5d6 drop two is for "high powered characters" that means 5d6 drop two gives characters more hit dice?

JaronK
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Actually that says "High Powered Campaign."  :smirk
« Last Edit: December 16, 2010, 07:49:20 PM by BeholderSlayer »
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JaronK

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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #504 on: December 16, 2010, 08:03:23 PM »
Quote from: DMG Page 170
8.  High-Powered Characters:  Roll 5d6 six times, discarding the two lowest dice each time.  Arrange as desired.  This is just right for a high-powered game where the characters need to be really good just to survive.  The player may reroll all scores if his ability modifiers don't total at least +2 or if he doesn't have at least one score of 15 or higher.

It's even in bold and everything, right in the original text.

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Havok4

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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #505 on: December 16, 2010, 08:18:58 PM »
I agree that epic dragons invalidate the requirement for variable LA, that line makes no distinction between different types of true dragons so it is inaccurate and is therefore not part of a definition but is instead a description of certain true dragons. Also power in DnD terms can mean both stat increases and HD increases, the term does not distinguish between the two.

JaronK

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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #506 on: December 16, 2010, 08:44:04 PM »
Precisely Havok.  Both meanings are valid.  Heck, I'm pretty sure Powerful gets used in a few other places to mean other things too.  And since the only requirement in Draconomicon is that you get more powerful by aging, fitting any of the valid definitions is sufficient.

Certainly, the claim that More Powerful = Advancement is patently false.  Advancement is just a subset of getting More Powerful.  They are not equivalent.

Other uses of Powerful:  

In Powerful Build, it means a build that is like a larger one.  

Under weather conditions, we get "Powerful storm" which is clearly not about advancement or stats, but a more common English definition... a downpour in a desert is a "Powerful storm" while a blizzard is the equivalent in colder climes.  
Also under weather conditions, if a wind is "powerful enough" it can knock people down.More powerful here matches the dictionary definition "having great power, force, potency, or effect."

Then we've got the Gestalt Rules:  
Quote

And how about the miracle spell:

Quote
Alternatively, a cleric can make a very powerful request. Casting such a miracle costs the cleric 5,000 XP because of the powerful divine energies involved.  Examples of especially powerful miracles of this sort could include the following.

Obviously, "powerful" here has nothing to do with advancement.  More powerful effects here cost more, and are more potent, but HD and advancement have nothing to do with it.

How about Disjunction?

Quote
Even artifacts are subject to disjunction, though there is only a 1% chance per caster level of actually affecting such powerful items. Additionally, if an artifact is destroyed, you must make a DC 25 Will save or permanently lose all spellcasting abilities. (These abilities cannot be recovered by mortal magic, not even miracle or wish.)

Note: Destroying artifacts is a dangerous business, and it is 95% likely to attract the attention of some powerful being who has an interest in or connection with the device.

It's used two ways here... artifacts are "powerful items" used in context to mean "more powerful than non artifact items."  That's not advancement.  The second use of powerful here means "potent" or similar.

In none of these cases does Powerful have anything to do with advancement, and all are D&D quotes.  Clearly the statement that More Powerful = Advancement is completely and totally false.

JaronK
« Last Edit: December 16, 2010, 09:04:47 PM by JaronK »

skydragonknight

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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #507 on: December 16, 2010, 08:47:48 PM »
However, even taking all of those quotes and definitions together, what exactly does that make Dragonwrought Kobolds?  They clearly have 12 age categories and are of the dragon type, growing more powerful by aging (any increase in power works to meet this), so they can't be Lesser Dragons (as those lack age categories), but they also cannot be True Dragons as they don't have variable LA depending on age.

Where does it specifically say that lesser dragons can't have 12 age categories that is a definition and not a description? Rules quotes. :P

@JaronK
Also, if we're using the "most common definitions" of words, then isn't the most common definition of power in d&d either ECL or CR, depending on player or non-player? Yes, it's not the only definition but to flat out ignore the most common definition just 'cause you don't like how it fits into the discussion is poor logic. You should at least refute the most common definition before moving on to a lesser one, as you are asking others to do. Or is this now a double standard?
« Last Edit: December 16, 2010, 08:52:40 PM by skydragonknight »
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JaronK

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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #508 on: December 16, 2010, 08:57:54 PM »
Where does it specifically say that lesser dragons can't have 12 age categories that is a definition and not a description? Rules quotes. :P

Already quoted multiple times.  Dragons of Krynn and Dragon Magic state that any dragon with age categories (12 of them, in Dragon Magic) must be a True Dragon.  Try looking in the feats section of the first book and the Dragonpact section of the second.

Quote
@JaronK
Also, if we're using the "most common definitions" of words,

We're not.  We're looking at the definitions used by D&D.  Because if any definition used fits dragonwrought kobolds, then the statement "gets more powerful as it ages" works.  

Quote
then isn't the most common definition of power in d&d either ECL or CR, depending on player or non-player?

Nope.  See what I quoted above.  It's actually more commonly used to mean something else (though what else changes where).  I suggest searching the SRD for the word "powerful" and seeing what you get.  You'll see that ECL and CR are only a subset, and I don't think they're even the most common subset.  Heck, it seems to be most often used in the Gestalt rules, which are directly comparing characters of equal HD, ECL, and CR and saying that Gestalt ones are more powerful, then trying to clarify how much more so.

In fact, the only definition that seems to fit all uses in D&D of "Powerful" is the first one you find with a google search online:  "having great power, force, potency, or effect."

JaronK
« Last Edit: December 16, 2010, 09:07:29 PM by JaronK »

archangel.arcanis

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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #509 on: December 16, 2010, 09:42:35 PM »
also even if you could equate powerful to ECL or CR those do not equate HD so powerful can not equate HD.
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JaronK

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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #510 on: December 16, 2010, 09:54:24 PM »
And yet despite all that evidence, what do you want to bet within 5 pages Beholder or someone similar will come back with the same "more powerful" nonsense once again?  It just keeps going on cycles... make an claim, claimgets shot down by actual quotes and sources, make another, that gets shot down by quotes and sources too, make a third claim, same thing... then go back to the original.

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skydragonknight

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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #511 on: December 16, 2010, 10:02:07 PM »
Already quoted multiple times.  Dragons of Krynn and Dragon Magic state that any dragon with age categories (12 of them, in Dragon Magic) must be a True Dragon.  Try looking in the feats section of the first book and the Dragonpact section of the second.
I see the logic here. Though if I was looking for a definition of true dragons, I wouldn't look at either of these locations, so my opinion is very mixed about this.

Quote
@JaronK
Also, if we're using the "most common definitions" of words,

We're not.  We're looking at the definitions used by D&D.  All of them.  Because if any definition used fits dragonwrought kobolds, then the statement "gets more powerful as it ages" works. 
[/quote]
Same for other lesser dragons too, so I would argue that either any definition of power that could include a known lesser dragon be discarded or that the whole line of text be discarded.

Quote
Quote
then isn't the most common definition of power in d&d either ECL or CR, depending on player or non-player?

Nope.  See what I quoted above.  It's actually more commonly used to mean something else (though what else changes where).  I suggest searching the SRD for the word "powerful" and seeing what you get.  You'll see that ECL and CR are only a subset, and I don't think they're even the most common subset.  Heck, it seems to be most often used in the Gestalt rules, which are directly comparing characters of equal HD, ECL, and CR and saying that Gestalt ones are more powerful, then trying to clarify how much more so.

JaronK

Although by actually searching the srd using the search function, the most common use of "power" seems to be as synonymous to ability... The use of power as a measure of relative strength was not on the first five pages of search results. That's interesting, but not strikingly useful.
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JaronK

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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #512 on: December 16, 2010, 10:29:59 PM »
I see the logic here. Though if I was looking for a definition of true dragons, I wouldn't look at either of these locations, so my opinion is very mixed about this.

Dragon Magic's not a bad source for information about dragons, though.  Also, those two sources are the only two direct areas of the rules where a crunch part says "you need a True Dragon for this to work, and here's a definition of a True Dragon."  That's pretty darn relevant.

Quote
Same for other lesser dragons too, so I would argue that either any definition of power that could include a known lesser dragon be discarded or that the whole line of text be discarded.

Only if it gains that power by aging.  Which none of the lesser dragons do.

Quote
Although by actually searching the srd using the search function, the most common use of "power" seems to be as synonymous to ability... The use of power as a measure of relative strength was not on the first five pages of search results. That's interesting, but not strikingly useful.

"Powerful" is not the same as "power."  "More powerful" is the idea we're looking for, not simply the word "power."  In that context, "power" can't be "ability" because "more abilitiful" is rather silly and "has more abilities" doesn't end up working in the places "more powerful" is used in the rules.  This is why I searched for "powerful" not "power."  Take a look at the first five pages of "Powerful" and see what you get.  Powerful build doesn't have more abilities, it's just a build that's more like a bigger build.  Artifacts are "powerful" compared to other items, but they don't necessarily have more abilities (some magic items are quite complex indeed without being artifacts).  Mummy rot is a "more powerful" disease, but in context that's clearly not about abilities either.

JaronK
« Last Edit: December 16, 2010, 10:39:51 PM by JaronK »

Kajhera

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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #513 on: December 16, 2010, 11:57:34 PM »
random adventure idea: dragonwrought kobold wants to take a true dragon-only prestige class; must convince other dragons she is a true dragon.

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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #514 on: December 17, 2010, 03:17:53 AM »
Quotes from Monster Manual 3.5, Draconomicon and Races of the Dragon
[spoiler]
Quote from: All about dragons, Draconomicon, p.5-7

Quote from: Dragon, True, Monster Manual 3.5, p.68
DRAGON, TRUE
True dragons are winged, reptilelike creatures of ancient lineage.
They are known and feared for their size, physical prowess, and
magical abilities. The oldest dragons are among the most powerful
creatures in the world.
...

Quote from: Chapter 6, Character Options, Feats, Races of the Dragon, p.100

Quote from: Chapter 3, Kobolds, Races of the Dragon, p.39
KOBOLD RACIAL TRAITS
...
Humanoid (dragonblood, reptilian): Kobolds are humanoids
with the dragonblood and reptilian subtypes. For all
effects related to race, a kobold is considered a dragon.
...
[/spoiler]

Kobold == Humanoid (dragonblood, reptilian)
Dragonwrought Kobold == Dragon (reptilian)

True dragon == Dragon (...), non-reptilian

Correct?

...
And TLM: Yes, this is why regular Kobolds aren't True Dragons.  Dragonwrought Kobolds, however, are of the Dragon type, because the feat makes them dragons, not Humanoids.
...

DWK == reptilian
True dragon =/= reptilian

DWK =/= True dragon?

JaronK

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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #515 on: December 17, 2010, 06:43:14 AM »
Where does it say True Dragons can't have the reptillian subtype though?  If you have a silver dragon, and give it the reptilian subtype somehow (perhaps you're aiming to Pun Pun your silver dragon), does it lose its True Dragon status?  All I've seen is that True Dragons must be of the Dragon type... not that they must be of the Dragon type and not have subtypes.

I mean, your quotes all basically can be summed up as "True Dragons are kinda like reptiles, but they're not really, and have noticeable differences.  A Dragonwrought Kobold is a bit more reptile than a normal True Dragon, but not very much so.  Also note that all that anatomy of a True Dragon given doesn't fit at ALL for Lung Dragons... one of them looks like a sea turtle, while another looks much like a manticore.  Brown dragons don't have wings or aquatic abilities.  A DWK actually comes a lot closer to the definitions you're quoting there than many Lung Dragons do.  Either way, clearly those quotes are talking about general cases, not trying to give an actual definition of True Dragons.

Really, the thing to remember is that when most sources describe True Dragons in general (as opposed to actually giving a definition for one, as they do in Dragon Magic and Dragons of Kyrnn and Draconomicon's sidebar), they mean the Chromatic and Metallic ones (much like the MM, which explicitly says as much).   Heck, that's the biggest difference between the descriptions and the definitions... one is talking about what most True Dragons are generally like (and since the most common True Dragons are the ones in the MM evidently, that's what they're talking about), the other is saying "this is what makes you a true dragon."  All the anatomy stuff is obviously in the former category.

JaronK
« Last Edit: December 17, 2010, 06:52:43 AM by JaronK »

skydragonknight

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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #516 on: December 17, 2010, 10:04:11 AM »
Synopsis of Beholder Slayer's Argument:
Dragon Magic -> Kobolds fit a definition of true dragons.
Draconomicon -> Kobolds fit a definition of lesser dragons if advance through age categories means using the advancement column of the stat block.
Draconomicon->A dragon cannot be both a lesser dragon and a true dragon.

Case 1 (advance = monster advancement)
Logical rules conflict follows->Errata says use the primary source, Draconomicon
Primary source is used->Kobolds are lesser dragons.

Case 2 (advance = aging)
Kobolds do not fit a definition of lesser dragons and are consistently true dragons.

Synopsis of Synopsis:
If the definition of lesser dragons refers to normal monster advancement, for which "age categories" is listed for all universally accepted true dragons, then via the rules conflict above, kobolds are lesser dragons.
Otherwise, kobolds are true dragons.

Resolution (im)possibily: There is no way of knowing definitively which use of "advance" applies without asking the designers, who no longer care about 3.5.

Conclusion: Since there is no way of knowing for sure which definition applies, a specific ruling must be made by the DM in each game, based on his/her own interpretation.

Sub-conclusion: The whole argument is pointless.
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bearsarebrown

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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #517 on: December 17, 2010, 01:05:47 PM »
Didn't we agree on that on page 4 or something?

BeholderSlayer

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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #518 on: December 17, 2010, 01:26:41 PM »
An interesting statistic:

In the Draconomicon, the word "advance" can be interpreted to construe the concept of gaining/higher HD, whether through RHD or class levels, 34 out of 44 times. For fairness, the "Advancement" sections were left out of this survey, which would have put the statistic somewhere around 50 of 60 (just guessing on that, but there's a lot of creatures in it).

The majority of the 10 uses that didn't fit this definition were found in fluff sections.

I do maintain that definition for lesser dragons is intended to also be applied, in converse, to define true dragons as well. I feel this is fairly obvious in context, especially when one considers the description of lesser dragons on p. 144.

However, as somebody said a while back, there is finally a go-to argument that can be used to show that DWK are not True Dragons. Whether or not every single person on the forum agrees with it is no skin off my back.

There will be some that refuse to read it this way, but then, there's still people that believe the world is flat.
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JaronK

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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #519 on: December 17, 2010, 02:40:57 PM »
Wait, Skydragon, THAT is his argument?  When laid out like that it becomes extremely easy to tear apart as incorrect.  You sure that's not a strawman?  Let's look at it.

Synopsis of Beholder Slayer's Argument:
Dragon Magic -> Kobolds fit a definition of true dragons.

This part is correct (though I note Dragons of Kyrnn is being ignored, but since Dragon Magic's definition is a stricter version of the same, that hardly matters.

Quote
Draconomicon -> Kobolds fit a definition of lesser dragons if advance through age categories means using the advancement column of the stat block.

This is incorrect.  Even if advance through age categories means that, Kobolds don't fit it.  To quote Draconomicon:

Quote
True dragons are those creatures [dragons] that that become more powerful as they grow older... Other creatures of the dragon type that do not advance through age categories are referred to as lesser dragons.

Note that only "Other creatures" get that test.  If you already qualified as a True Dragon, you don't even check.  "Advance through age categories" is never even looked at if you're a True Dragon, because you're not an "other" creature.  This was actually brought up pages ago.  Repeatedly.  Anyone who's unsure of this point or who thinks it might be out of context needs to read the sidebar on page 4.  

Quote
Draconomicon->A dragon cannot be both a lesser dragon and a true dragon

See, this right here is why Beholder keeps getting accused of ignoring source material.  The part that says dragons can't be lesser and true?  That's the exact same "Other" that makes it clear you don't even test to see if they're Lesser dragons if they've already qualified as true.  The entire reason you can't be both Lesser and True is because Draconomicon tells you that once you're true, you shouldn't even bother to check if you're lesser.  

And since we've repeatedly shown that "become more powerful" includes stat increases, using D&Ds own definition of power, Kobolds clearly fit as True Dragons.  So this advance thing has ALWAYS been a red herring.

And thus his entire argument is rendered false.  

Though you seemed to have missed whatever it was that meant "powerful == advancement."  He had that in there.  It made no sense.

And do remember that when Draconomicon was printed, Kobolds weren't even Lesser Dragons.  They weren't dragons at all, in fact, so when Draconomicon talks about Lesser and True Dragons in descriptions, they're clearly not talking about Kobolds.  All that other stuff was added later in Races of the Dragon, which retroactively allowed them to count.

So is there some other "go to argument that can be used to show that DWK are not True Dragons?"  Because I've yet to see a single coherent definition that actually successfully defines True Dragons (which is to say, it fits for all True Dragons), uses actual D&D quotes to show that it's a real definition of True Dragons, and doesn't lead to contradictions in the rules... and manages to leave DW Kobolds out.  And I've been asking to see it for a very long time.  The complete failure to do so after this much time suggests it's impossible.  For anyone trying to do so, here's a few True Dragons to make sure you include:

Brown Dragons (lack wings or swim speed)
Force Dragons (LA -- for all age categories, not metallic or chromatic and neither are most of the dragons below, wyrmlings start at huge size, immune to force but not any of the standard energy types)
T'ien Lung Dragons (Have the Air and Spirit subtypes, have a few spell like abilities but no spellcasting, lack any elemental immunities)
Li Lung Dragons (Look basically like manticores, complete with lion like manes and fur, also lack elemental immunties, have spirit and earth subtypes)
Lung Wang Dragons (Lack wings and tail slap, lack elemental immunities, have spirit subtype)
Pan Lung Dragons (Lack breath weapons, eats fruits and vegetables, lacks wings but flies using a magic gem in its forehead, lacks claws and in fact just looks like a snake, have spirit subtype)
White Dragons (Maxes out at 69 feet in length)
Battle Dragons (Immune to Sonic, but not one of the traditional energy types.  Lacks spellcasting, though it has Sp abilities.)
Chaos Dragon (Confusion breath weapon+random energy type breath weapon, immune to confusion but not any energy type, has Sp abilities instead of spellcasting)
Incarnum Dragons (LA 0 as adults)
Crystal Dragons (Lack spells, but have psionics and spell like abilities, have air subtype, breath weapon is a beam of light)

JaronK
« Last Edit: December 17, 2010, 04:38:16 PM by JaronK »