Author Topic: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons  (Read 171412 times)

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JaronK

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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #360 on: December 14, 2010, 11:22:13 PM »
I agree that gaining ability score boosts is increasing in power. You've convinced me.

Is gaining ability score boosts actually gaining abilities? (I am aware this sounds slightly silly, but bear with me.)

The abilities thing is still a red herring, because the entire MM thing is about "known" true dragons, not about all true dragons.  Remember, it also talks about all True Dragons being Metallic or Chromatic too.  It's simply not a definition.

But if you really want, the ability score boosts would give you the ability to take certain feats (Combat Expertise, for example), ability to cast higher levels of spells (if you're a caster), ability to better resist will based spells (remember, +2 to will saves is a feat, which is an Ex ability, so that counts too), ability to successfully land spells better, ability to succeed in tasks you otherwise couldn't (due to higher skill DCs, for example converting an indifferent person to helpful with diplomacy), and so on.  Not that it matters much, because the MM entry still isn't a definition... in context, it's clearly talking about "known" True Dragons.  This is the same shifting goal posts nonsense... just a few pages ago, I remember someone stating that no one was arguing for the MM definition and that Draconomicon was the source that mattered.  Now suddenly we don't seem to care about Draconomicon, and the whole "primary source" bit is conveniently ignored.  Give it a few pages and we'll be back to Draconomicon and ignoring everything else.

As for the 100feet thing, let's quote it again:

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They range in length from several feet upon hatching to more than 100 feet after attaining the status of great wyrm. The size of a particular dragon varies according to age and variety.

This says quite clearly that while the size of a particular dragon varies according to age and variety, they will be more than 100 feet long after attaining great wyrm status.  If you read that carefully, you'll see that it does expect you to be over 100 feet at that point... but the exact size depends on variety.  But White Dragons never get anywhere near that.

And, you know, there's the metallic and chromatic thing, which should be even more obvious (most True Dragons are neither, MM says all of them are one or the other).  Do I really have to post the entire MM description of known true dragons, and insert into it counter examples for pretty much every single part of that?  Or can we just look at it and see that the MM is talking about what's commonly known about True Dragons, and clearly not giving a definition of any kind?

JaronK

Kajhera

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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #361 on: December 14, 2010, 11:24:24 PM »
... It does say 'all known' every time it specifically mentions Metallic and Chromatic, yes? Not while defining specific? Or is that just the SRD?

Havok4

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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #362 on: December 14, 2010, 11:31:04 PM »

Don't dragons continue to gain virtual age categories, and abilities with them?
They just get improvements to existing abilities, like their fly speed or casting.

Kajhera

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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #363 on: December 14, 2010, 11:33:10 PM »

Don't dragons continue to gain virtual age categories, and abilities with them?
They just get improvements to existing abilities, like their fly speed or casting.
Hm, so if we want a reasonable definition of 'ability', we will likely have to include those.

Havok4

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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #364 on: December 14, 2010, 11:41:48 PM »

Don't dragons continue to gain virtual age categories, and abilities with them?
They just get improvements to existing abilities, like their fly speed or casting.
Hm, so if we want a reasonable definition of 'ability', we will likely have to include those.
But by that logic DWK will also count as the increased ability scores improve his existing abilities. Look at the Wingstorm feat for an example of other ways he could improve existing abilities just by aging. 

skydragonknight

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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #365 on: December 14, 2010, 11:44:57 PM »
And dragonwrought kobolds don't gain "power" (ability scores) beyond great wyrm, so I think we can by consensus agree that gaining abilities/power rule only seems to apply until you reach great wyrm (the maximum non-virtual age category). This also helps the accepted true dragons like fang dragon who don't quite fit the epic dragon progression advancement.
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Havok4

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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #366 on: December 14, 2010, 11:52:37 PM »
Would that interpretation mean that the need to gain abilities and powers clause no longer applies to great wyrms, and therefore to great wyrm DWKs?

Edit: I see another issue, if you go by that logic you would only need to find one dragon that does not gain new abilities when going to the great wyrm age category for that definition not to apply and requiring it to be pushed back by one age category, and you could use the same logic to chain that all the way back to wyrmling. Which leaves us in the same boat as before, that would require a lot of book crawling to apply though.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2010, 11:58:38 PM by Havok4 »

Kajhera

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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #367 on: December 14, 2010, 11:57:51 PM »
Would that interpretation mean that the need to gain abilities and powers clause no longer applies to great wyrms, and therefore to great wyrm DWKs?

Unfortunately for great wyrm DWKs, they age straight into death of old age, not anything more interesting.
It does not apply for aging past great wyrm.

Havok4

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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #368 on: December 15, 2010, 12:00:03 AM »
But great wyrm dragons would not be considered true dragons by that logic, Skydragonknight's logic does allow them to be true dragons though. DWK actually fit more than great wyrms if you take that logic too far as they gain the ability of dying of old age when they age past great wyrm status, while normal true dragons gain no new abilities.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2010, 12:01:46 AM by Havok4 »

JaronK

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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #369 on: December 15, 2010, 12:11:41 AM »
Great Wyrms are just the end stage of a True Dragon.  They're not a species by themselves.  "Great Wyrm Silver Dragon" is a Silver Dragon, and Silver Dragons gain power as they age.

Quote from: Kajhera
... It does say 'all known' every time it specifically mentions Metallic and Chromatic, yes? Not while defining specific? Or is that just the SRD?

That's what the MM says too.  The SRD is almost copying MM in that section.  Specifically, it says:

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The known varieties of true dragons (as opposed to other creatures that have the dragon type) fall into two broad categories: chromatic and metallic. The chromatic dragons are black, blue, green, red, and white; they are all evil and extremely fierce. The metallic dragons are brass, bronze, copper, gold, and silver; they are all good, usually noble, and highly respected by the wise.

As you can see, they're clearly only talking about 10 specific types of True Dragon when they say "the known varieties of true dragons."  Why people seem to insist on pretending that the following section is anything else is beyond me.  Hence my saying it's a red herring.

JaronK

Lunaramblings

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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #370 on: December 15, 2010, 12:12:00 AM »
Ok. I have been lurking and reading the posts for a while, and something occurred to me.

Lets say we have an established True Dragon, let's say a Gold.

Mr. Gold is plane shifted to a plane where he need not eat or breathe or do anything. He is the only thing on this plane. He stays there for XXX years. Then he is released. By virtue of being a True Dragon, he has aged, and gained a whole bunch of stuff. He clearly is more powerful.

Now. Same deal with Mr. Kobold. He used his 1st level feat to buy Dragonwrought. He is a Level 1 Commoner. With Dragonwrought. What does he gain in this situation? Well he gets mental boosts. Does he actually gain anything in the way of abilities? No. He comes back out as a 1HD Commoner with slightly higher mental stats, but no new abilities.

To me, this shows that DWK's do not gain power simply by aging, where as a True Dragon does. Thoughts?

BeholderSlayer

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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #371 on: December 15, 2010, 12:15:23 AM »

I can't argue that dragonwrought kobolds get more power as they age...even a +1 modifier may qualify as a (slight) increase in power. But gaining an ability simply through aging is not something on their list of tricks, unless I'm reading it wrong.

I think the issue that will come up is that a under certain circumstances the DWK can get more abilities due to that ability increase or though effects that rely on age category (some dragon specific feats rely on this like wingstorm(Drac)) could affect them even if they do not those feats or spellcasting. Otherwise really strict adherence to that true dragon definition could mean that a great wyrm dragon is not a true dragon anymore as it will no longer get new abilities as it ages.
Actually, Great Wyrm dragons do get new abilities as they age, read the ELH, Dragons, Advanced.
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Havok4

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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #372 on: December 15, 2010, 12:22:38 AM »
I am trying to point out that if the "gain abilities" means getting new EX, SU or SPL abilitiies than great wyrm dragons stop qualifying, so that rule does not apply to all true dragons under that definition so it cannot actually mean that.

Actually, Great Wyrm dragons do get new abilities as they age, read the ELH, Dragons, Advanced.

I have seen that, they only improve existing abilities, which some people are insisting does not count. How is having your damage reduction increase different in terms of getting new abilities from getting more mental stats.

BeholderSlayer

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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #373 on: December 15, 2010, 12:22:57 AM »
I always read what you say.  But you change what you say on a regular basis, from claiming to be basing your opinion on the dictionary, to implying you only meant the Oxford dictionary, to stating that the dictionary definition wasn't sufficient.  So, which of your contradictory points are you now referring to?
Are you taking your medication? None of this ever happened, at least not in the way that your hallucinating.

That would be you.  For example, ignoring the part where D&D defines what being "more powerful" means.  But feel free to point out what I'm ignoring that's actually counter to my claim.
Right, being more powerful is now defined as having higher ability scores exclusively. lolwut


Except that that's not established anywhere in the rules.  To be "more powerful" in D&D includes simply having higher stats (see the section on point buy, previously quoted earlier, that you earlier ignored).  Advancing through age categories does not mean this (and I suspect what you actually mean is "Advancement: By Age" which is an entirely different thing).  So, you have now established that your argument has always been a faulty claim, even when given direct evidence against it.
You heard it hear first, folks. A level 5 wizard is no more powerful than a level 4 wizard.


If we do it all the time, then surely you can show a few examples.  Should be trivial, right?

JaronK
You do it pretty much every post. Why bother?
« Last Edit: December 15, 2010, 12:26:39 AM by BeholderSlayer »
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BeholderSlayer

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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #374 on: December 15, 2010, 12:25:37 AM »
I am trying to point out that if the "gain abilities" means getting new EX, SU or SPL abilitiies than great wyrm dragons stop qualifying, so that rule does not apply to all true dragons under that definition so it cannot actually mean that.

Actually, Great Wyrm dragons do get new abilities as they age, read the ELH, Dragons, Advanced.

I have seen that, they only improve existing abilities, which some people are insisting does not count. How is having your damage reduction increase different in terms of getting new abilities from getting more mental stats.
"Gain Abilities" can also mean things like additional epic spells through skill ranks, or anything else really related to feats or epic stuff (you still get feats as you progress into epic).

I am not so stupid as to define "gaining power" as narrowly as "gaining stats" or "gaining ex, su, or sp."
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bearsarebrown

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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #375 on: December 15, 2010, 12:28:00 AM »
I am not so stupid as to define "gaining power" as narrowly as "gaining stats" or "gaining ex, su, or sp."
No ones else is either. But those things are included by "gaining power."

Havok4

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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #376 on: December 15, 2010, 12:29:16 AM »

"Gain Abilities" can also mean things like additional epic spells through skill ranks

Why does this count and not gaining additions spells per day due to increased ability scores?
« Last Edit: December 15, 2010, 12:31:03 AM by Havok4 »

JaronK

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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #377 on: December 15, 2010, 12:33:41 AM »
I always read what you say.  But you change what you say on a regular basis, from claiming to be basing your opinion on the dictionary, to implying you only meant the Oxford dictionary, to stating that the dictionary definition wasn't sufficient.  So, which of your contradictory points are you now referring to?
Are you taking your medication? None of this ever happened, at least not in the way that your hallucinating.

Here, share my hallucination.

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=10353.msg351398#msg351398
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=10353.msg351422#msg351422
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=10353.msg351924#msg351924

Quote
That would be you.  For example, ignoring the part where D&D defines what being "more powerful" means.  But feel free to point out what I'm ignoring that's actually counter to my claim.
Right, being more powerful is now defined as having higher ability scores exclusively. lolwut

I clearly said the definition "includes simply having higher stats."  What part of that sounds like "higher ability scores exclusively?"  A definition including something does not mean it exclusively includes it.  The definition of True Dragons includes silver dragons.  This does not mean True Dragons are silver dragons exclusively.

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Except that that's not established anywhere in the rules.  To be "more powerful" in D&D includes simply having higher stats (see the section on point buy, previously quoted earlier, that you earlier ignored).  Advancing through age categories does not mean this (and I suspect what you actually mean is "Advancement: By Age" which is an entirely different thing).  So, you have now established that your argument has always been a faulty claim, even when given direct evidence against it.
You heard it hear first, folks. A level 5 wizard is no more powerful than a level 4 wizard.

Inclusive != exclusive.  The definition of power INCLUDES simply having higher stats.  It also includes other things, like gaining levels.


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If we do it all the time, then surely you can show a few examples.  Should be trivial, right?

JaronK
You do it pretty much every post. Why bother?

...so, that's an "I can't" isn't it?

JaronK

AndyJames

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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #378 on: December 15, 2010, 01:04:31 AM »
Does anyone else here feel that Beholderslayer was never on Debate team?  Nor Soro?
I got that feeling from just about page 2.

I am also pretty certain the kid's on drugs, given how he repeats himself and goes "this is my definition and we are all going to talk only acording to my definition, full stop" ad nauseum.

His trademark cry also signals that debate was never his forte.

Solo

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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #379 on: December 15, 2010, 01:06:12 AM »
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...so, that's an "I can't" isn't it?

JaronK
To be fair to him, you started it.

"I am the Black Mage! I cast the spells that makes the peoples fall down!"

The Legend RPG, which I worked on and encourage you to read.